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Starting a separate thread on this. It grows out of the US perspective thread.
Some people basically voiced the old sentiment of "Love It or Leave It" in that thread. Apparently they were disturbed by criticisms of the US from Americans, and dusted off the old rhetoric about how criticisms meant those Americans didn't appreciate how their fathers and grandfathers and great great great grandfathers died for their freedom, etc. Well, as an American critical of many aspects of US culture and government, I've got news for you. *Activates Rant Mode* I LOVE this land I was born in, and which my family has lived since Colonial times. I love living in it, studying it, exploring it, learning about it, and participating in it. I love it SO MUCH, that I absolutely REFUSE to stand by, deaf and dumb and blind, while others destroy it! You got that?!? I love it so much I will not abandon it and flee somewhere else, but will stay and fight for it! I love it so much I will not ignore its problems! I love it so much I will not stick my head in the sand and pretend everything is just fine! I love it so much I will not fiddle while it burns down around me! I love it so much that I will search intensely for the causes of the problems, and root them out! I love it too much to sit back and watch it die, either here or in some far away other place! "America, Love it or Leave It!" What a sick joke! Try loving it so much that you do something about its problems instead! *Deactivates Rant Mode* |
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Hi Dio...still same old you, I see! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Oh, have I mentioned I'm pleased as punch to see you here at Ironworks? Well, I am!http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
I do agree that we should be able to disagree with things here in the good ol' USA, but I often find myself taking the opposite stand if I hear her being too denigrated. Still I might do that for ANY place/person/thing I feel strongly about. I am not a heavily political person, just not my nature. But I have opinions and I do voice them from time to time. I don't necessarily think I'm going to change the world by doing so. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif But maybe a a piece of it will move to my side...LOL, which is often the middle of the road! No, don't leave for those reasons. Yes stand by your convictions, by all means, but always remember that we may THINK we are a hundred percent right but can always be wrong or *gasp* partially so. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif CloudThinker ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/biglaugh.gif One of the things that really makes America great is that the people can actually effect change. Some times its a good change some times not but the people still have that ability...for now....lest we let congress and government "protect us from ourselves".
------------------ Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it. |
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EDIT: Oops, I just realized that I accidentally accused you of being Nazis http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/FRblush.gif Sorry. I hope you all realize the way I mean it. ------------------ http://faceweb-004.facelink.com/edit...72/4711972.jpg I am the great Kazara [This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 09-07-2001).] |
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Seriously, I agree totally that one should keep an open mind and be prepared to change one's own if the evidence so dictates. In my 35 years on this planet, I have changed my views quite a bit on serious matters in light of new experiences and information. Kaz, yes, that is what I meant. Love for a country should not blind you to its faults. Love for a country does not mean you should deny the problems that do exist. Love for a country, imo, means that you should be willing to face those problems honestly and openly, with the ultimate objective of solving them. |
Thanx, I needed to read this Diogenes!
Mark |
I agree mostly with you here only disagree about the part of affecting change. The only way we can change is by mass complains and pitions, changing president doesn't affect much stateside because they only keep there campain promises at the end of there terms in order to get reelected. Also have you noticed only rich people have been US presidents?? So they really don't understand the bulk of the US most of the time.
------------------ People are born and people die and yeat life goes on without a care. |
Diogenes, you have a gift for clear statements, and I do believe you have hit this one on the head. I agree with you 100% concerning ones responsibility to make changes. When patriotism turns to chauvinism, one's ability to think clearly is diminished.
As a side note, I have seen the people who have given service in the armed forces used as tools for politicians. My father fought in WWII and received a distinguished service medal, yet he was utterly, adamantly opposed to the U.S. presence in Viet Nam. Although military service in and of itself is an honorable thing, the military is often used for dishonorable causes by politicians with no moral fiber. |
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Yes, well, I've a few more years on you Dio, but same thing for me. I've learned that there's always another viewpoint and sometimes things are not black or white but fall in the grey zone. Then again, there are some things that do fit the black or white scenario. Hmmm.. I think if I keep going I'll argue myself around a few circles! HAHA..see why I avoid this sort of thing? LOL Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
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------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/saz.gif |
If you can't take pride in your country at leat a little what can you take pride in?
------------------ http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprinc...ages/blade.gif Many blade cut weather they are mettle or wood, but the sharpest and deadlyist blade it the one of knowledge. |
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You know it is truly amazing the depth of opinion and conviction we can find in one country, nevermind a whole world! My father did two tours of duty in Vietam when I was young. He fought for his country and for the ideals expressed at the time. He has his views of politics like anyone else. But that one topic is a hot one that even *I* don't push. Why? Because he adamantly believes he was there for a good reason and I'll not shake that or try to. That was a topic of so much controversy it could take it's own forum! One thing I will say, knowing he lost pals there, knowing how very close I was to losing my father (he did one tour on the DMZ- his job was repairing bombers and recon planes, he's a mechanic by trade, airplanes in the service), I will not ever tell him it was for nothing. And no amount of 'logic' will ever make me feel differently. I may question our reasons/motives etc. But that will never make me betray the feelings that my father and most of my family (many served this country with distinction in the military)have for what they did and why they did it. I do think, that sometimes being right is not so good a thing as being thoughtful. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
You are absolutely right Cloudy. I have respect for people who act on their convictions, and live out their creed. I would never fault someone for doing what they think is right. Especially so if what they are doing involves personal sacrifice for what they believe to be the good of their country/community.
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Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
Diogenes, I'm with you 100%. You won't find anybody more patriotic then I am. I love this country, but this country like anything, can use constructive criticism.
There is a huge (and I mean massive) difference between slamming and objectively discussing/criticizing America. Our leadership does stupid things sometimes, and I'll be the first to admit that. Saying our leadership is stupid is one thing, saying Americans are stupid because of said leadership is completely different. I love hearing different perspectives on our country from others, as long as they are well formed opinions instead of personal attacks. I think everyone here knows the difference though, so there's no need to point this out. ------------------ "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -General George Patton (1885-1945) http://www.asnsoup.com/milamberanim3.gif Member of CLAN HADB |
Why Do You Think I Don't Live in the USA?
------------------ I Am The SunGod Here To Enlighten You |
The way I look at it is this: There is not a single country out there that is 100% perfect...far, far from it. I got into a heated debate with a friend of a friend once and their entire side of the conversation was "Well if you don't like it then leave" I tried to explain that leaving will not make it better. If there were a Utopian paradise out there then yes I might leave, but why flee my country only to find the same problems in another? And how is change going to be implemented if we just run away everytime we disagree with how things are run? It really irks the crap out of me when people say "People fought and died for your rights" but they fail to understand that that is what I am using, my rights as a citizen to voice my opinion and to effect change. People did not fight and die for me to sit on my hands and keep my mouth closed!
You are 100% right Dio....couldn't agree more http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no.../xyxthumbs.gif ------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas! |
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Not that it would change your opinion or anything, but I'm sure it's a factor. ------------------ "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -General George Patton (1885-1945) http://www.asnsoup.com/milamberanim3.gif Member of CLAN HADB [This message has been edited by MILAMBER (edited 09-07-2001).] |
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come on mods come and get me http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hihi.gif ------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas! |
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But seriously if i really had a choise i probably end up living in Swiss or France or Brittan anyway Somehow the US don;t seen that appealing But about love it or leave it something doesn't have to be perfect to love it certainly not a country ------------------ I Am The SunGod Here To Enlighten You |
I Love america and have not once left it, yet. Same goes for the Earth. Some people can't tolerate the critism of others, particularly if that critism pushes upon something they hold dear. But since America was founded by people who were critical of their goverment,It's only natural. People who have a real impact in a society, be it positive or negative, just don't love it or leave it, they make it. George washington, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson didn't leave colonial America when they had a greivance against their goverment. They stayed, fought, and won.
[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 09-07-2001).] |
You're so right Diogenes. I made a comment like that in the other thread. It's much better to care enough about the future of your country to make constructive criticism, than just follow the government blindly, or be so indifferent as to not bother questioning anything at all.
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------------------ Regards <marquee direction=left scrollamount=7> http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/anr.gif </marquee> Mouse [This message has been edited by Mouse (edited 09-07-2001).] |
true mouse but not evryone has the ability to make it and may not be able to leave it even in the US sadily enough.
------------------ http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprinc...ages/blade.gif Many blade cut weather they are mettle or wood, but the sharpest and deadlyist blade it the one of knowledge. |
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------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif |
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bump! Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
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------------------ Sir Taliesin http://www.dabros.com/images/sigs/giant.gif If they take my gun can I still use my Axe? |
Diogenes,
Very well stated, don't tell any of your liberal friends and I won't tell any of my conservative ones, OK? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif This is the USA if want my right to free speach I must defend yours. I don't have to like it , but hey this is America. Peach on! You @#*&%$#*!&$^%@#*$&%^@(*@&#^$%!$#^%@ Liberal http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif ------------------ http://www.123imagehost.com/images/b...arrissig02.gif "the memories of a man in his old age, are deeds of a man in his prime" |
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First, Hello, I am new here. Second, I agree with the sentiment of fighting for what you believe in, although I don't subscribe to the nationalist sentiment posited here. Here is a factually incorrect, but moving e-mail that made its rounds recently, that you folks may find interesting. It can mean one thing to patriots, and one thing to folks who believe in standing up for their beliefs, another thing to someone else, but maybe its interesting. To me it illustrates the rebellious nature of our deified forefathers. Here it is: Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British as traitors and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Continental Army; another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward. Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British. We were British subjects at that time, and we fought our own government! Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid. Remember freedom is never free! It's time we get the word out that patriotism is not a sin, and the Fourth of July has more to it than beer, picnics, and baseball games." ---End mail. Peace, ------------------ <A HREF="http://www.individualandcommunity.f2s.com" TARGET=_blank> http://www.cyn.f2s.com/asig1.gif </A> [This message has been edited by anomie (edited 09-09-2001).] |
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