|
When I first came to this board, the topics were casual, not political.
Now I know that I have responded on some of these threads, but only to stand up for what I believe in. I have become quite disheartened with this chain of events. I thought this was a place to get away from the controversy of this world, but alas, I was wrong. I am extremely disappointed and I wonder, is this a common thing? If so, I would like to know, since I thought at first that this was an escape where people of different cultures could unite without the pressures of the outside world. ------------------ http://hometown.aol.com/amandaisflir...mtbrand=AOL_US |
we can hardly ignore whats going in the real world
this place diminish the difference between each individual, therefore, rid us prejudging, so that we can better express ourselves. well, I am chatting with now, I will get back later |
Liliara, I guess this place is like a huge club - some people like dancing on the dance floor, some like drinking at the bar, some like casual chatting, and some like to sit in the extreme corners and debate passionately about issues. One person's wine is another's poison. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif Some (controversial) thread topics may prove upsetting, but they are entitled to be posted as long as they do not breach forum guidelines, talk about illegal activities or involve flaming. There are many other posts which are more conversational, escapist type posts (look for anything initiated by Cloudbringer). http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif I guess my best suggestion would be to avoid the threads that might upset you. Just skip over them. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
I will be bringing up the possibility of having a "serious discussions" forum with Ziroc in the future - when the time is right for him. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif |
sometimes, it is hard to distinct between serious discussion and casual talk. you are saying open a foumr just for serious discussion, right? there is not clear line
|
What the genie said http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif
Now Memny, come here and let me retie that knot for you...it's not good for you to talk so much http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif Liliara: Actually I think one of this forum's strongest points is the enormous diversity of the people that come here and concomitantly the diversity of the topics discussed. It is never dull! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH and the HADB & Sultry Elflet http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
Quote:
------------------ Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH and the HADB & Sultry Elflet http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
Liliara, I've just read that entire American politics thread and obviously things got a little heated. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
I will repost what I posted there below. Guys, I've always thought that the wonder of Ironworks was that we could debate controversial issues rationally and prevent ourselves from getting emotional about it. Rahnid, re: your first post on this thread: Quote:
Liliara - I appreciate that you feel passionately about this subject, but try to remember that these are just words on a screen and opinions from a multitude of other people. It is diversity of opinion and the freedom to express that which helps us all to learn. Like Voltaire said: "We may not agree with what the other person says, but let's respect their right to state their opinion." I myself am an American living in Australia and I didn't see this thread as America-bashing at all - just a vigorous debate. The people on the other side of the fence feel just as passionately about their opinions as you do and in their way care about America just as much. Don't take things personally! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Nobody's right or wrong here - it's just opinions from a group of people. Finally, just some final words of advice - if you feel your blood pressure rising and feel like punching the monitor http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/eek.gif just stand up and take a walk to calm yourself down. It's just a forum thread, guys! Let's not forget that. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif [This message has been edited by Memnoch (edited 09-07-2001).] |
As always: well said Memnoch!
------------------ I am committed to restore your faith in extreme violence... Link Overlord Executioner, Slayer of Fluffed Beings Member of Clan HADB Supreme Warrior of Myst |
Gosh! That Rahnid guy sounds like a real {edited}! P'raps he should have thought before he posted, or edited it afterwards! I sometimes say things in post that are a little too strong, but when I see it on the page after posting, I go in fast and edit! Rahnid could have made exactly the same points without the abuse. Not difficult. If he is a soldier, I really think he should have more self-control.
Back to Liliara - debate about serious things is good. It makes for greater understanding between widely diverse people and opinions. Surely a good thing? But since you were subjected to that sort of abuse I can understand you feeling as you do! I would be pretty upset and http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no.../angryfire.gif myself! (((((hugs))))) ------------------ http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif |
|
I like the political debates - this place is not separate from RL really - we are all real, we all have real opinions about the world around us. It would be artificial (IMHO) to try to leave that behind when we come here.
However, I do think that the person who posted that particular diatribe was way way out of line. I haven't been in that particular thread, but I hope he was told to cool it. I won't resort to flaming him, although I feel as though I want to! He does not show much self control and that is not called for, no matter how much you disagree with the debate - there are more intelligent and effective ways to disagree. ------------------ http://www.gldb.com/wayno/e1.jpg Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. Epona of The Laughing Hyenas Proud winner of the 'Most Useless Post 250 Has Ever Seen' Award 2001. "I'd just like to thank my friends and family, without whom none of this would have been possible..." |
Liliara...
This is a great place, no doubt about it. I will also say that generally my policy is to stay away from the political threads. I should have stayed away from that last one. But, curiosity wrestled my better judgement into submission. I have not been back to that thread since my last post there. Political discussions make for hurt feelings and often high blood pressure. I don't see the need to participate generally. I will not go back to that thread either, I said my piece and that's it. I will apologize if I have offended anyone with my rant. Though what I said as I recall had no cursing. I hope you stay and... PS....Love the Boris Sig ---------- Memnoch... sometimes the contents of the threads are hard to determine. The Title for some threads are sometimes misleading. That was not the case this time. Perhaps asking folks to add Political: or Politics: to the begining of the thread could help? Just a suggestion. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hippy.gif ------------------ http://members.hometown.aol.com/wulf...ages/crest.gif The line between good and evil is razor sharp. Be careful of misteps, lest you find yourself spitted upon your own blade. [This message has been edited by Wulfere (edited 09-07-2001).] |
Quote:
IW is a place where ALL these things occur and in cycles. We don't just discuss the weather, no, but then we aren't always discussing nuclear disarmanent either. What you WILL find is that if a serious discussion takes place it is done with respect for each other and if anyone goes over that line, they are reminded that we DO respect one another's right to have opinions and express them. NO, we don't always agree with each other but THAT is the beauty of Ironworks. We CAN have disagreements in a civil manner. Discussions of serious topics political or othewise do happen and are a natural thing in any group of people. I myself, tend not to get heavily involved in most of them, but there are some that I feel passionately about and will take part in or where I just have a few cents worth of opinion to add to the mix. No, Ironworks is not a haven from any serious thought, just a haven from ridicule and flames and trolls. I'm sorry you were adversely affected by seeing the new topics come up, Liliara! Maybe if they bother you, it would be best to read the many other fun and light things we have around. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
I agree with Cloudy, and I would also like to add that in the forums, you meet completely different people than you meet in RL who have completely different opinions and views than anyone you know (this may not be true for everybody, but it is for me). I enjoy the chance to discuss the latest political fiasco here because in RL things tend to become a bit one-sided, in school we sometimes have to quit discussions because there is no one willing to represent the other side! LOL That is one of the great things about forums, you meet people there whom you would never have met otherwise. I hope this hasn't gotten garbled.
EDIT: The thing I mean is that the political discussions here are discussions with points of view and opinions that you will rarely together in RL. Clear? ------------------ http://faceweb-004.facelink.com/edit...72/4711972.jpg I am the great Kazara [This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 09-07-2001).] |
Sorry you were upset there Liliara. I know that I have been involved in a few of the threads that you are referring to and I hope I didn't offend you or anybody else. For me, it's not so much that I enjoy politics, It's that I have a hard time not jumping in a debate when I hear something I disagree with. Sometimes people get out of line, but for the most part, people are careful to back up and remember where they are before things get too serious.
Please don't be disheartened by this. ------------------ "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -General George Patton (1885-1945) http://www.asnsoup.com/milamberanim3.gif Member of CLAN HADB |
Quote:
------------------ "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -General George Patton (1885-1945) http://www.asnsoup.com/milamberanim3.gif Member of CLAN HADB |
While I know that posting on hot political topics is never really going to change anyones belief system, I think it is important to occsaionally have input from people who have differing viewpoints. If you never actually hear the other side of an issue, you can never really understand the reality of the thing, wethere you agree with the opposition or not.
The thing that really amazes me..well actually there are several, is that some times I can hear a "kid" who is only 15 actually have a fair grasp of things that I would have thought beyond his/her ability to understand. On the other hand, I frequently see people who are rather young, who have no real world experience, who have never been more than 5 miles away from mom and dad, thinking that they in their infinite wisdom can better manage the world than people who have dedicated decades of time and energy and who have learned from centuries of trial and error in our histories. Things are the way they are because they work...in general, there is room for improvement but as you get older you learn that human beings ...being what they are...are not destined for some theoretical idealogical utopia. We just arent built that way...Maybe with some genetic tinkering we will improve but as it stands RIGHT now we have what we have earned and what we deserve as a species. Things usually improve in increments, slowly and surely because there are good people trying, what does NOT happen is "snap your fingers and over night the world suddenly changes". So a raucus discourse is good for the soul and also serves a useful purpose...if people remain civil about it. ------------------ Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it. |
Quote:
Memsypie! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif Oh and the idea of a serious discussions forum has been run past Z. He's still thinking about his upgrade in general. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif CloudPoster controversial escapist(?!) http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/EEhearts.gif ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." [This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 09-07-2001).] |
Quote:
Edit: Doesn't mean that we as mods are allowed to flame either, by the way. I reread my post and realized that it sounded a bit funny. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/eek.gif ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif [This message has been edited by Memnoch (edited 09-08-2001).] |
Quote:
------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif |
Quote:
------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif |
Quote:
But anyway, apologies, Memnoch, and anyone else if I offended. Including Rahnid. Er - shall I delete the post? ------------------ http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif [This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-07-2001).] |
No idea why things are so political.
------------------ http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...o_ani_fire.gif All your base are belong to us! How Are you gentlemen? The Spaminyte Emperor Fish? *********************** Welcome to your doom!!! *********************** Official villain/demon of IW! |
Quote:
A flame is a disparaging/insulting remark about someone at a personal level. This does not have to include cuss words by any means - it's the tone of the post. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/Instagib.gif The rest of your post is commenting about his post, so that's ok. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no.../xyxthumbs.gif And no, you don't have to delete it, just as I didn't ask Rahnid to delete his. I thought I'd call it to your attention as I don't want a flame war to develop. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/LSVADER.gif But there's no worries of that. I'm here. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/ylsuper.gif ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif [This message has been edited by Memnoch (edited 09-07-2001).] |
I must I say agreee with Lilara...If you want to talk about Polotical things why bring it too nicel oving IronWOrks when every person knows good and well its going to start an agurment. Now mater how many warnings the mods give out, no mater how nice the overall thread out POLOTICAL THREADS ARE GOING TO CASUE FLAMES thats all there is too it people. IF you dont want an agurment, then dont start a political thread,that simple
------------------ http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...Rangereyes.gif So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be The ranger looked at the place out side of the elven town near the river, he looked near the rocks, then they showed the way .... Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas Currently in service for the Red Wizards |
Quote:
And conflict, real "in your face" variety conflict upsets me. I hate to see people hurt or disrespectful and it makes me very sad to be involved in it so I tend to naturally avoid things that might lead there. I have participated in more 'serious discussions' on IW than elsewhere because here I've always been afforded the right to have my own opinion and to voice it without fear of being flamed and ridiculed. I also tend to have a 'mediating' personality, a fence mender if you will and sometimes I see it isn't quite possible to make everyone 'kiss and make up' so I stay out. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif That lack of flamewars, btw, was something made clear to me my first weeks on the board and I've never regretted staying here because of that and the warm and friendly people I have met here. You know, I even have reasonably good friends here who don't always agree with me... eef! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif Of course I know I'm right... hehe http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif*snicker* Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." [This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 09-07-2001).] |
Quote:
Actually come to think of it there have been quite a few serious flames latley. There was the clan one There was this one and there was a another one a while back. 3 may not seem too much, but its 3 too many. And by the way cloudy your last post was toatly ignoring the my point, sure we are human and cant help falming, my point was politcial, racial and all other thread like that WILL CAUSE FLAME WARS. If you want to talk about sutff like this got to msnnbc.com, they have some boards I think for this kina stuff. ------------------ http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...Rangereyes.gif So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be The ranger looked at the place out side of the elven town near the river, he looked near the rocks, then they showed the way .... Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas Currently in service for the Red Wizards |
I have seen quite a few political and serious topic discussions go on in this forum without them turning into flame wars. Some of them have been in-depth, intelligent discussions. It all depends on who is participating in them as to which direction they will go.
If we all remember to be civil with others and their opinions that differ from our own, there is really no need to make a separate forum for more serious discussions. You always have the option not to post in any thread or to discontinue posting in one when someone else makes it hard for you to carry on an intelligent conversation! I know you all see how well the serious discussion forum at Mithril Hall works but that segregates the community. Their General Discussions forum is so tame! Their Serious discussions forum is so serious! At least here, we can all converge with our discussions, jokes and casual conversation all at once! It is no different than belonging to a large family! I would hate to see this forum fall to mere chit-chat! ------------------ http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/ltp4.gif You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity. Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not! |
Quote:
There was one flame in that entire political thread. There is a BIG difference between flaming and debating/arguing, flaming is personal, arguing/debating is not. I have no problem with arguments as they show that people are passionate about what they believe in, but they should refrain from taking things personally as that is when flames begin, you begin to focus on the people instead of the argument. This is when it's best to disassociate yourself with the thread. There's no shame in withdrawing without convincing the others, it's not a contest. And aside from F's little indiscretion http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif this one has no flaming whatsoever. ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif |
Quote:
My point- we WILL ALWAYS have discussions of a serious (politics, religion, etc) come up, even off topic in simple fun threads. It happens. It's the nature of message boards and human beings. And there is nothing wrong with controversial subjects discussed on civil terms! But yes, I think they should be separated into another forum where a warning (about the nature of the contents) and RULES(of acceptable and inacceptable behavior) are posted. No, they do NOT have to cause flame wars. People can and DO have debates without personally insulting each other. And in separate forum, that's what the mods would watch for. GR, I think maybe you may not have realized that it is possible to talk about those things without spewing hate or violence or other insults at one another. It IS and I've seen it done at MH and in person in real life talks. I tend to avoid them alot because frankly it makes one have to think AND control ones emotions as well as use a LOT of energy. I'm all for it once in a while,but I much prefer my FUN! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no.../partygirl.gif Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
Anyone here owns a TV?? I do, when I see something on that TV I donīt like, I switch the channel. IW is like a TV , alot of nice people and very different people. YOu canīt love all, but you are in control of everything, since you can choose not to respond or not read that wich you donīt like. However under the guidelines of IW there are some basic rules that tries to make one point certain: We are all here because we like it and want to have fun and exchange ideas in a friendly manner.
Memnochs statement fromn Voltaire is a great guideline. WE come from all over the world here and yet we have only had a few mishaps so far. That is great IMHO. Political? Well why not. We discuss the bible and religion, best things to do during a powerfailure. So why not politics. One donīt like it, one donīt have to read it and one donīt have to post there! A friend of mine said something really funny about this when another friend got an ugly T-shirt with some ad for a video game. "Just because you get a T-shirt, doesnīt mean that you HAVE to wear it!" http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif (He didnīt say thoose exact words since he spoke swedish at the time being! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif) ------------------ http://wolfgir.najk.net/wolfie.gif Be vevvy qwiet..Iīm hunting wabbits... Wolfgirs lair once-upon-a-paper |
Quote:
------------------ People are born and people die and yeat life goes on without a care. |
Quote:
------------------ http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif |
Quote:
Originally, I was not much for the idea, myself. But recently became very annoyed to see how thoroughly messed up the Polls forum is now. It is NOT a polls forum anymore. These sorts of controversial things are being discussed THERE and many people who might like to join in, didn't realize it, while some who thought they'd find simple polls there were surprised to find hot button topics being thrashed about. I think we need to do one of three things- 1) send those talks to GD 2) rename that forum the Polls and Hot topics board ( http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif ) 3) create a separate place for such things so that those who wish to participate know where to find them and those who don't, know what to avoid I know that I've mentioned as much to Z and I'm sure others have. He will no doubt discuss the idea with people if he wishes, but ultimately this is HIS board and HE will decide what he wants for topics/forums and such. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." [This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 09-07-2001).] |
Quote:
Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
Quote:
Not saying that we could not live with separate forums, this one just won't be the same. It'll be like sending all the kids to their respective rooms rather than allowing everyone to be in the same room, laughing, talking, butting heads...whatever...as adults normally do when they socialize in RL. I still don't see a need for it, even the User Created Polls questions are generated to get a variety of opinions, which is what polls do! So what if the nature of some of them touch on more serious topics? Its not like that forum is strictly for listing what are your favorite foods, types of music, etc without being allowed to have some input from members on the subject of the poll right? If the moderators there see that some threads don't belong in a "Polls" setting, what is to stop them from moving them over here where we, for the most part, have proven that we can all act like the adults that most of us are? Even the younger people here at IW show a vast depth of intelligence and wisdom! I know very well that this is Ziroc's forum and that he will do as he sees fit but to let the wishes of a few people who don't even want to see titles of threads that they would rather not participate in rule over the majority who can handle this forum and like it the way it is will be showing favoritism to the "players" rather than the "participants", if you can understand what I mean. As long as we can all follow the rules, what's wrong with this forum now that wasn't wrong with it six months ago? ------------------ http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/ltp4.gif You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity. Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not! |
Quote:
------------------ http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif |
Personally I'm with Moni on this one. I like the mix of silly, chatty, serious and yep even the http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/spam1.gif that all goes to make GD the diverse grab-bag of threads it is today. I kinda like opening a thread and not being sure of where it will lead or how serious it is going to get.
And if I don't like the tone or type of one thread, well, there's always the next one.........http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif ------------------ Regards <marquee direction=left scrollamount=7> http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/anr.gif </marquee> Mouse [This message has been edited by Mouse (edited 09-07-2001).] |
Amen Mouse! It is unique isn't it!
------------------ http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/ltp4.gif You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity. Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not! |
As I've said, my view on it has been in both camps so far. Not really sure either way, but one thing is for sure, things can and do get lost when put in places nobody expects to find them. Thus the misconception on polls. A poll is not a discussion, albeit it may contain info pertintent to an answer, it is not expected to be a "I believe this, what do you believe" set of threads, but a "Do you believe x, y or z or other" type of thread. And my point is simple, such things DO become discussions so the two have blended there.
Someone (in msn) told me that people were doing that on purpose. IE: holding 'serious, HOT topic discussions" in POLLS to avoid offending people here in GD! I was bothered for one reason: GD was MADE for such things as well as the fluff and I wondered if this person was right. Were people holding those debates/discussions there INSTEAD of GD for that reason? Or was it just a simple matter of where one happened to be when a topic came up? Same idea, though. It's happening elsewhere, not in GD, so we have, de facto, a separate forum already! For the record, I can count on ONE hand and have fingers left over, the number of times I've brought forum related things up with our Webmaster in my time here at IW. In fact, other than informing him of troll activity and asking about private messaging or chat, I'd have to say that this is the ONLY time I've made upgrade suggestions! And in any case, I put forth ALL options when I suggest things to Z, so 'player' or 'participant', I never forcefeed ANYONE my views. I offer them as options and point to what I prefer. Cloudy, glad that it's Friday and she goes home in 15 minutes ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." [This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 09-07-2001).] |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:26 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Đ2024 Ironworks Gaming & Đ2024 The Great Escape Studios TM - All Rights Reserved