See, all this road rage, Children killing Children, mass murders at the office and crap, nearly EVERY SINGLE one of those people were on SOME type of Prozac.

Also, about the shark attacks:
I am thinking that since we have had entire barges/ships dumb raw sewage into the ocean, the prozac (And all the other psychotropic drugs) MAY be screwing with the sharks minds as well. I know it sounds far fetched, but weirder things have happened.

Remember Columbine? BOTH of them were on a form of Prozac.. and remember that guy from Saturday Night live? Gary Hartman?? (I think it's that name)--anyway, his wife shot him dead in his sleep.. she too was on Prozac..

Just wanted to share these ideas with you.. but can't you all 'feel' the change in people around you? Like everyone is impatient, pissed off, or ready to run you over? SOMETHING is changing, and this seemed to start when these mind Altering drugs were made available by prescription.

Eli Lilly -- Did you know that they were the creators of what the public call "LSD"? It was created in the 60's to help schizophrenia.

Crazy stuff... Anyone? Ideas? Opinions?

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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
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Hmm well from personal experience, when I was on Prozac in '97, I just found I was just full of energy (so much I couldn't sleep) and was zooming around not being able to concentrate (not good considering it was given to me to help me get through my final year of Secondary school exams http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif)

Personally from what I hear from friends / acquantances Doctors just proscribe prozac because their is little else then can do in the short term - Counselling takes months and they don't want people to do something silly in the meanwhile.
Also remember that a lot of people that get this drug are very depressed and so given that they are down and then boosted up, the cycle of extreme ups and downs probably doesn't do anybody's mindset a great deal of good.

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I'm not a doctor, but I used to work for Johnson & Johnson Medical and know quite a bit out this. IMHO there are better SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-Uptake Inhibitor) medications out there. Prozac was the first, but I can think of Zoloft (sertraline) and Paxil (paroxetine) off the top of my head as being very successful pharmacological treatments. Having said that Prozac has a very successful record of successful treatment of anxiety and depression. Too often the media focuses on people who have had adverse effects to medications, and hardly ever on the many more for whom the medication changed their lives. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

What people fail to realize is that there is no "wonder drug" that someone can take that will automatically cure them of anxiety or depression. Illnesses should be treated with a combination of pharmacology and psychology. The medication acts to correct an imbalance in serotonin levels in your brain to get it to a state where the patient feels that they can exert enough willpower to take control of their own destiny. This treatment should be accompanied by some form of therapy to build the patient's confidence and self-belief.

What it is not, is a magic pill that someone can pop that makes them feel better about themselves. I think that a lot of this bad press about Prozac and other psychotropic drugs are the result of these medications being incorrectly prescribed without the appropriate psychological support (or people taking them for the wrong reason).

Just my 2c. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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As far as I know, it is a known side effect of Prozac that it can make a minority of people overly aggressive and suicidal. It is the same with any treatment, people taking it should be checked regularly and monitored to make sure there are no undesirable affects.

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Actually I think that Killers might use prozac, but prozac users are'nt killers.
The sort of people who are more likely to run over people, shoot their friends and cause general mayhem are'nt usually people of 100% sound and normal mind.

Dont you think that someone with say..violent tendancies would be more likely to use a form of medication like prozac than someone who is healthy both mentally and physically?
There's your link I'd say. The people behind these horrible things are'nt changed because of prozac..they are the way they are and therefore NEED prozac, and that's why many of the people you listed happen to use prozac(to cure depression).
Its not the prozac, its the people that need to use prozac..

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Resident Lurker Guy

That's a very good point. Of course most people who use prozac would never be violent whether on or off the drug (clinical depression etc. does not generally lead to violence for example, and it would be wrong to suggest that everyone with mental health issues is a potential killer, that is simply not true), but yes there is likely to be a slightly higher proportion of violent prozac users than non-users one would imagine. Correlation does not necessarily point to the cause.

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Epona of The Laughing Hyenas
Proud winner of the 'Most Useless Post 250 Has Ever Seen' Award 2001. "I'd just like to thank my friends and family, without whom none of this would have been possible..."

I'm sure all these SSRI drugs work for the majority of patients, but it's just getting scary.. check this site out, it also describes how most people that go on killing spree's are on SOME type of SSRI drug..

http://www.truebooks.com/prozac.html

PS: For those of you outside the USA, when you drive, can you almost 'feel' the anger or impatiance from other drivers? We have a lot of crazy drivers here in Florida.. just wondering.. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

I was put on Prozac (because I have chronic pain, and it was getting me down), and I took it for a week, and I seriously FELT different.. and I did something in the car (raced another around a curve and our lane merged into the other) and I said to myself "I would NEVER do this".. so I never took that stuff again. I just deal with my pain and keep positive.. I hate taking pills as it is..

Just wanted to let ya know, that scared me.



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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

More info:

Luvox is another Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor (SSRI). Eric Harris, the "leader" in the Columbine High School tragedy, was taking this medication for depression. Although this drug, in the same class of drugs as Prozac, is approved for the treatment of obsessive compulsive disorder, doctors often give it for depression, since it is in the same SSRI class as Prozac and Zoloft.

Breggin's article states that:

"According to the manufacturer of Luvox, Solvay, 4% of children and youth taking Luvox developed mania during short-term controlled clinical trials. Mania is a psychosis which can produce bizarre, grandiose, highly elaborated destructive plans, including mass murder. Interestingly, in a recent controlled clinical trial, Prozac produced mania in the same age group at a rate of 6%). These are very high rates for drug-induced mania--much higher than those produced in adults. Yet the risk will be even higher during long-term clinical use where medical supervision, as in the case of Harris, is much more lax than in controlled clinical trials. These drugs also produce irritability, aggression or hostility, alienation, agitation, and loss of empathy."

Scary....

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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

Hence my point about monitoring people who are prescribed these drugs. Anything which inhibits or stimulates production of chemicals in the brain stands a risk of having very nasty effects. Is 4% a high percentage of people to suffer side effects? Nasty for that 4% and their nearest and dearest, but that's 96% for whom presumably the drug is doing what it should be doing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very wary about any medicines and I think you are right to be cautious - especially since it sounds as though you had a bad experience with it (heck, I can't take aspirin or Ibuprofen). I also think that seeing drugs as a miracle cure for depression etc. is dangerous - there is a tendency to give people pills nowadays which I don't agree with unless there is no other option. But isn't there also a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

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Epona of The Laughing Hyenas
Proud winner of the 'Most Useless Post 250 Has Ever Seen' Award 2001. "I'd just like to thank my friends and family, without whom none of this would have been possible..."

Yikes! I've never taken any of the drugs in that family, but they really should be prescribed with care, as far as I can see. I know it's become so common for doctors to pass out Prozac that we joke about it in the popular culture. Someone says something negative and you can hear "Hey, what's the matter, forget your Prozac today?" , that sort of thing.

So I agree entirely that it should be prescribed with more care and that follow-up and monitoring should be the norm, even if the drug HAS been around a while.

Not the same thing- but in the ballpark. I had three heavily impacted wisdom teeth out several years ago and my dentist prescribed Percoset as a painkiller following the surgery. Well that stuff is a controlled substance (narcotic) and for a good reason I discovered. I got totally paranoid on it after a few days. Began to think I was being watched in my apartment, drove for groceries and at the store I was racing about with a cart thinking I was being followed. The feeling was like I would have crawled right out of my skin if I could, it was so bad. I creased the paint on my brand new car along a neighbor's bumper as I parked the car. I got inside my apt., sat on the living room floor and cried hysterically. I'd also had a phone call with a good friend (one of my closest since HS)where I'd apparently said things that really offended and upset her and I don't to this day know what I said!!! (we talked later and she was familiar with someone else on this drug going nuts and forgave me instantly when I mentioned Percoset!)

The upshot is that I immediately stopped taking the painkillers and that night I had horrible pain accompanied by an incredibly powerful NEED for the drug. I almost got up and took it despite knowing it made me act and feel badly. I had a very, VERY long night but got through it. Tylenol didn't touch the pain, but I knew I'd rather suffer that than get hooked on a narcotic that made me that loopy. Needless to say my dentist has entered : *NO PERCOSET* in his records for me. I know it is routinely given for severe pain. A friend had the stuff after her C-section delivery. Yet a faculty member in my dept. tells me his own sister got addicted to the drug and tried to commit suicide twice. She too, had paranoid delusions while taking it. She even went to multiple doctors who ALL gave her prescriptions for it! Scary thing, if you ask me.

Cloudy

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Interesting correlations, Ziroc. I think it very likely that there is some significance to what you're seeing in regards to the elevated stress in our society.
I've been on Prozac for about three years now, and it has had a major impact on my life, of which I would say 95% has been positive.
SSRI's are an extremely potent class of drugs in that they directly affect the chemical balance that has significant influence on our emotions, personality, and rationality.
In my opinion, there are a few factors that are contributing to the picture you're seeing:
Increased use of psychotropic drugs in all segments of society, and in all age groups.
Lack of proper clinical diagnoses prior to prescribing the drugs.
Lack of proper follow up or monitoring of patients using psychotropics.
Lack of education on the patients part as to what to expect from the drugs.

I think these factors, combined with our general social trends of instant gratification and responsibility avoidance have created a frighteningly large population of patients on psychotropic drugs who shouldn't be.

Great topic, I expect to see a lot of responses to this.

Interesting article, Z. I think this is the key point:

Not quite sure how it works in the US but here in Australia SSRIs and other psychotropic drugs can only be prescribed by psychiatrists, not GPs and certainly not for acne or insecurity problems. Patients have to be assessed as to their suitability for this type of medication, and it is usually only prescribed for severe anxiety, panic disorders, or depression where the patient's quality of life is already significantly degraded and they have not responded to therapy or other pharmacological treatment. Like I said in my earlier post:

Medical practitioners need to be fully aware of all the issues involved with prescribing an SSRI (or a benzodiazepine for that matter) and they need to be aware that treatment does not end with the prescription. I saw an ad on TV in California once for Paxil, pitched at people with shyness, urging them to "try it and turn into the extrovert they always wanted to be". (Such ads are illegal in Australia.) Paxil is a great treatment for social anxiety disorder as that is caused by serotonin imbalances in the brain, but it's not a wonder drug that will make you popular and remove all anxiety/depression from your life. People who take it for this reason are taking it for the wrong reason, and blame must be laid at a) the company that advertised at this target market; and b) the medical practitioner who prescribes the drug for this reason.

These drugs have the potential to improve the quality of life for a lot of people who suffer from mental illness - but they have the potential to affect others in strange and sometimes unhealthy ways. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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Wow, Memnoch, I had no idea that Australia's control of SSRI's was so tight. I think that is probably a much better approach than we have in the US. Here, any GP can prescribe any of the drugs, with no psychiatric evaluation or follow-up mandated. I think this greatly increases the chance of mis-diagnoses and abuse.
Sometimes it seems that the American medical system is run solely for the benefit of the pharmaceutical companies.
Unfortunately, as is pretty common in my country, the pursuit of money overshadows all other concerns.

Total wierd how why people turn to drugs to get edgy...

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I agree with Lifetime. It is an interesting correlation, but it is a falacy.

It is a falacy of false cause also known as Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc (after this, therefore because of this)

example:

Given as the Great Depression followed the enfranchisement of women, it is clear then that the Rise of RedLesbianHomeWreckers in Acadamia is the reason for our economic malaise.

Just because people with emotional disorders take drugs to help them combat the emotional disorders, it doesen't mean that the drugs are responsible for what the emotional disorder might make them do.

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I do not know what the law is regarding these drugs in Germany but I think it's very strict because - believe this or not - I had never heard of these drugs before reading this thread. My theory would be that Prozac, when used by people who have a minor psychic 'flaw', like a tendency to lose one's temper easily and violently (really tiny things you wouldnt notice that much), could enhance those minor flaws until they become major flaws. The results would be, among others, extreme violence and similiar. Just my 2 Pfennig (until we get the Euro, that is)

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I am the great Kazara

About the Euro ( I know off topic) any knowledge of how they will determin its value? I have heard nothing of it.

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Life and death are mearly shadows of the complexity of humans

I believe it is now a 'currency' although nobody uses it yet. It has a value (which has been dropping the last year, from more than 1$ to 0.86$ I thinkhttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif), the currencies which are going to be replaced by the Euro - for instance DM, Lire, Francs etc. are 'tied' to it. Clear? I'm not so sure about this though.

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I am the great Kazara

Actually, I just thought of the most obvious sign of the widespread abuse of mind-altering drugs in America....

George W. Bush is president

Quid est demonstratum

Good point - any George W. Bush fans here?
As you might expect, most of Europe isn't too happy with him right now, one gets the impression he is doing what he wants to and ignoring all of the other countries. And none of us wish to have average temperature drop by ten dgrees celsius because of global warming (complicated) for instance.
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I am the great Kazara

[This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 09-04-2001).]

No, more prominant sign of widespread use is the shoice of prezidents Bush or Clintons vice prez. (can't remember his name at the moment). Also thanks for the info on the Euro Dolar I don't hear much about it here in the states.

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Life and death are mearly shadows of the complexity of humans

Yeah Kaz, we don't feel like we've done a good job in electing a president unless he either has some moral disability or is just an ignorant shitsplat. Or both.
Sometimes I just feel like apologizing to the entire planet for the last fifty or so years of American politics. And the social inbreeding that generates it...

Of course, I believe (not sure on this point) that the majority of the US population was for Gore, it was because of the strange election thingy that Bush was elected. Clinton wasn't so bad (I think) but Bush... I am really getting the impression that he is ignoring us (us being Europe in general) and heading on a collision course with Russia. Which leaves one major problem - we are between the US and Russia.

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I am the great Kazara

I admit I don't follow the news as much as I should, so I don't want to sound ignorant, but what is wrong with the U.S leaving Europe alone? Do you want us interfering with your government? I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't understand.

Also with russia, how could we possibly have a conflict. They are completely dependent on our money and resources it seems. They don't have the economy to possibly cause a problem with us. Apart from all that, what in the hell would we fight about? I thought we were getting along with them.



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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
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I am just saying the impression you get here in Europe (I believe the other Europeans agree with me). What I mean is that we feel we are being ignored as in the United States does what it wants (like step out of the ABM treaty or quit the Kyoto conference) without listening to anybody else. Of course, as I said, that is simply the impression one gets here and the media are not completely unbiased in this subject so I could be COMPLETELY wrong.

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I am the great Kazara

Out of respect for Zirocs' original subject, we should probably start a new thread for politics...

Just started a new thread for the discussion of politics, especially how the U.S. looks to the rest of the world.

It's sad indeed that managed care has brought about the proliferation of so many "happy" pills and that so little time is put into traditonal psycotherapy for conditions like depression. It's even sadder that children are being subjected to drugs that weren't developed for them. These drugs may suppress the symptoms, but certainly dont address the underlying causes. I

I think it's more the combination of prozac with something else. I read something about that soemwhere. Was it prozac combined with alcohol that makes it work the opposite of it's intent? (ie really depressed)

Absynthe, Australia is tighter in some but more lenient in others. I get migranes. I can't even get codeine over the counter here in the USA! A prescription is needed apparently. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

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Hey Yorick, my wife suffers from migraines also... have you looked into Migranal or Maxalt? Both seem to work pretty well for her.
I just love the ridiculous dichotomies we have in our health care system: Efficient pain-killers are almost impossible to get over the counter, or even as a prescription, but psychoactive drugs are handed out like candy.

Kaz--This is going to be your currency and you are not clear on the operation of it? This is not attacking you, but have they not taught anything about it in school or in public forums or anything?

The Euro will replace the currency of 11 nations that have choose to join the single currency union: Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Spain and Portugal.

*I believe Greece will join fully by 2002

In January 2002 countries will start to replace their national currencies with the Euro notes and coins. From Jan2002 to Jun2002 both the Euro notes and coins and the national currencies will be recognized legal tender. On 1Jul2002 all national currencies will be totally phased out and only Euro notes and coins will be accepted as legal tender.

The Euro will be administered by the European Central Bank, which will set policies, interest rates, etc...concerning the Euro. The European Central Bank is much like the US Federal Reserve and Germany's Bundesbank, in that it is independent of political influence

Currently (and since 1Jan1999) all 11 countries of the 'Eurozone' have had their currencies pegged to the Euro. The Euro began trading in international markets as a legal currency for transactions between nations and banks. The price of the Euro on the International Market is determined just like any other currency (i.e. through exchange rate calculations that are too detailed to post here). While it is true that the Euro is 'down' in relation to other national currencies (the dollar, pound...) many analystst believe this is due to the uncertainty that still remains before it goes into full effect. I expect the Euro to gain a lot of strength after the 1Jul2002 roll-out of notes and coins.

Sorry to take this off-topic from the original thread! Hope that clears somethings up http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif



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