If you should have a fighter of lvl40 battle against a mage(or sorcerer) of lvl 40, who would win, and they both have equally powerful equipment, i'm trying to figure this one out, i mean, the fighter could be easy meat if you can do something like finger of death or hold person on him, but the mage can also be easy meet if the fighter has a high MR and good saving throws, so please help me on this one.

<font color="gold">Hmm, say that...
Maybe the mage, cause at level 40, he has so good spells, that he can easily both protect himself from weapons, and smash the fighter with an offensive spell.</font>

Well, if no scrolls of protection against magic and such are permitted ...
In all fairness i suppose it'd be the mage ...

Once he gets of a time-stop spell, the fighter's gone. Lower MR if needed, and then some spells that dont have a svaing throw against damage, or atleast only half ... ( dragon's breath, abi dalzim's horrid wilting, skull trap etc.)
If he cast Improved alacrity in the time-stop, no fighter will come out alive.
but that's just my humble opinion [img]smile.gif[/img]

OK, i thought of it that way to, and say if the mage does not have time stop and the fighter can use all kinds of scrolls, who would win in this battle

Fighter use scrolls?? Well, I think the mage would win due to overpowering knowledge and offensive, defensive capabilities. Plus, lvl 40 mages can cast a couple o level drains to mess the fighter up pretty bad. Not that any fighter in the DnD world would reach lvl 40 in their lifetime anyway, whereas mages could become or...defy their mortal shell...

Basicly it would come down to range and speed factor if the fighter is close and wins init. Bad news for the wizard unless he is prepared ie stoneskin etc

Any high level wizard should have a few contengency and spell sequencer ready.

Definitly the mage he cold use spells tha have no sving throws.

Simple, Mage wins in a couple of seconds..

Mage casts imprisonment.

For some reason in BG2, imprisonment has no save, and cuts straight through magic resistance..

Ok, you got a point, but i think imprisonment is overpowered, i'm not sure about this, but i think you can just imprison Irenicus or Demogorgon or any hard enemie and still get their loot(though i'm not sure if you still get the loot), feel free to correct me

Every time someone tell you a way by wich a mage could win, you say it does not count, and fighter can't even use scrolls, so lets just save time and ask the REAL question:

Who would win in a Melee fight Between a Fighter and a Mage?

The Fighter would win, happy now?

I think you misunderstood me Luvian, i didn't say imprisonment didn't count, i just said it was overpowered and about your question from fighter-mage in melee, i'm not that sure: mirror image, stoneskin, blur,..., tenser's transformation makes one hell of a tank

It just seem to me that you are biased to the fighter, since you rule out time stop and consider imprisonement overpowered, but you don't mind the fighter using a protection from magic scroll (wich make the fighter immune to ALL magic).

Ok, i didn't know that prot from magic is used against all magic, i just thought it was used to do away with magic damage like skull trap and ADHW, but i thought that you could still launch a fireball or a flame arrow or something like that, sorry my bad, and it's not because you think something is overpowered that you can't use it, but with time stop, the fighter wouldn't even have the chance to do something, the mage could just like: cast time stop, ABHW, time stop, ABHw, time stop,... until he's out of timestops, but against that time the fighter is long history.

Wouldn't it depend on the type of fighter - wizard slayer kit is pretty useful - and the type of cloak, weapon, armour, boots, belt and necklace etc... that he/she is using.

A ring of invisibility would negate the imprisonment spell - you cannot imprison that which you cannot see. Or an enraged beserker... I don't think you can imprison somebody who's "enraged".

Time stop could be a show stopper but only if the mage can get it off in time.

Might come down to who gets the first "shot" off.

But the wizard has a counter for pretty much everything the fighter can do. Most divination spells will undo the ring of invisibilty. At level 40, LMR would take you down 50% MR - stick two of those in a spell trigger with Greater Mal - now the warrior's open to anything. A well-prepared (chain) contingency and the warrior can't get a word in edgewise. Without Time Stop the fighter might break through the defenses with sheer number of blows, but I'd still have my money on the wizard (though a 40th level Kensai with two blackrazors and two Gaxx rings was quite the killing machine).

Now, in a Gibberling killing contest (something woefully lacking from SoA), I vote for the fighter. The wizard has to run out of spells eventually! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

You say that when using a wizard slayer, it would also depend on which cloak, bracers, rings, amulets, ...., but a wizard slayer can't use any items like that (AFAIK), he can only use magical armor and weaponry, at least, that's what the kit description says.

Stone skin does not even take a second to cast. It is impossible the fighter can get close enough to the mage before he cast it. Once it is casted it give the mage enough time to finish the warrior.

AD&D is designed for high level mages to be the most powerful character class in the game.

However, high level fighters can eat a LOT of damage the mage deals out.

It would really depend on what items each character had and who got initiative.

I happen to play a Wizard Slayer, and they are darned effective against spellcasters. In addition to the their Magic Resistance, they have a 10% (cumulative chance) per hit to cause Miscast Magic. At 40th level, a Hasted fighter with Mastery or better will have 5 attacks/round. Even if they don't cause Miscast, they stand a GOOD chance of disrupting the spellcasting.

You are correct that Wizard Slayers can only use Armor and Weapons. NO cloaks, rings, girdles, etc. However, they CAN use boots and guantlets.

I've downloaded a couple of items from outside the game that give me some extra advantages.

Charon's Gauntlets - automatically TURNS any spell 6th level or below back onto the caster (except for Area of Effect spells, like Fireball).

Bala's Axe - Imported from BGI. It also has a 10% chance per hit to cause Miscast Magic.

Riftsword - Gives Protection from Magic. Plus, each hit drains one spell from mage's memory.

And if all else fails....

Sihn's Soulreaver - 75% chance PER hit that the target must Save vs Death or die.

I would put Cerek up against any wizard, but even with all my special abilities and weapons going for me, a couple of Time Stops will completely ruin my day.

So..to answer the question...the Law of Averages favors the mage. He will probably win 60%-70% of the time, but the fighter has pretty decent odds too.

Lots of those items are overpowered. No sane DM would allow them in his campain, but then again, those where not made by sane DMs.

Well you guys seem to be forgeting the warriors high level abilities, a fighter could disrupt the stoneskin with 1 greater whirlwind at the very start of the fight and after that just keep hitting the wizard, but well that would need the fighter to strike all 10 blows, maybe after that he could disrupt all of the mages following spell. Even so I vote for the wizard, I think he would loose about 30% of the time at most

If I was playing the wizard, there is no way that warrior would be beating me.

Well, <font color="plum">Luvian</font>,

If you really feel you could beat a fighter with a mage, there is a way to test that.

I've started an Arena Combat thread in the Roleplaying Forum. Look for the "Enter the OCTAGON" thread and create your mage there.

I've already had a couple of other people respond, so you can challenge either one of them - once your character is approved.

I hope to see you there.

pitting a lvl 40 fighter against a lvl 40 mage is innately unfair. It takes 8,000,000XP for a fighter to reach lvl40, but it takes a mage a whopping 11,250,000XP to do the same. Thus, the mage would have had half again as much experience as the poor fighter. Of course, some kits would make life nasty for the mage, too, like monks. with 78% MR innate, +10% from Hell, +10% from Ring of Gaxx= 98%MR. Mage spell levels stop at lvl20, so it would take 3 lower resistances to stop him. (10+20)*3=90. simple Fire Arrows can stop a mage, regardless of stoneskins, b/c the elemental damage goes thru. a kensai with the boots of speed, grandmastery in any 1hand weapon, dualwielding, using a greater whirlwind will destroy a 20th level stoneskin in about 2 seconds. If the fighter had a scroll of prot. from magic, the wizard would be hosed, since he would be wasting time summoning stuff while his poor fragile brains were being spilled on the ground. Invisibility potions+Cloak of Non-Detection would be a problem, too.
[Fighter sees mage casting time stop? down a potion, wait a while (thru wasted true sights), then kick some booty.]
under any realistic circumstances, however, the mage would win.
But, then again, how many uber-powerful mages exist in the game, and they all fall to either a Bhaalspawn, or the lovely Demogorgon (a cleric, as far as I can tell). :D

Also an inquisitor could dispell any protection a wizard had and hit him real hard, a mage is very powerful, yes, but there are many ways to beat them too...

250 and I debated about this some time ago, and for every point we offered, the other had a counter-point. We ranted over three pages, but reached no conclusion. Finally, we agreed on one point.

The smarter player will win.

As for a Fighter using the Cloak of Non-Detection to back up his Invisibility Potions, I did some fooling around and found out that a True Sight will dispel that invisibility, but for some reason will not reveal a Stealthed Thief with the Cloak. Hmmmm.

Besides, the Mage can always blast the room with a Wand of Fire, then know where you are by the little flames coming up off your scorched little booty.

yeah, sorry about the Cloak of non-detection thing. it worked before, but after i installed ToB it stopped working. According to the spell description, True Sight dispels Non-Detection, but it is not supposed to be able to dispel the cloak itself. Other items have non-dispellable stuff, like the boots of speed and ring of gaxx. this is obviously a bug, and should be fixed. what's the point of the stupid cloak when the most commonly used invisibility remover nullifies it?

Someone, help! It was my longstanding anti-wizard tactic! Gone! Please help me! oh, the sorrow! the agony! the bad taste in your mouth! alas!