There has been a lot of debate and discussion concerning spellcasters in recent threads, and these 3 gentlemen seem to be the popular consensus for the MOST powerful wizards around.

So...which one of these 3 do you think is the most powerful....

<font color="yellow">Elminster</font> - He is the consort to <font color="silver">Mystra, Mistress of Magic</font> and is basically designed to be unbeatable in BG and the Forgotten Realms both.

<font color="white">Gandalf</font> - Stood toe-to-toe with a Balrog and lived to tell about it. He also fought off the Nine Riders by himself (although the battle isn't seen by the hobbits or Aragorn). Finally, he swings a powerfully magicked sword in addition to his spellcasting. abilities.

<font color="red">Raistlin Majere</font> - Defeated the goddess, Tiamet, on her home plane by himself. Any other questions?

<font color="white">Gandalf</font> and <font color="yellow">Elminster</font> never killed a diety...then again, they never tried to either.

For sheer power, I would probably have to go with <font color="yellow">Elminster</font>.

Anybody that has played PnP knows that - if a DM says an NPC is unbeatable - then they are. Pure and simple. The party WILL lose if they ignore the DM's advice.

I don't think Gandalf can safely be compared to the two D&D wizards. Magic and spellcasting - and as a result of that the power of spellcasters - is managed very different in the D&D multiverse as opposed to Middle Earth.

Gandalf is quite powerful compared to the mortals in Middle Earth, but him being a lesser 'deity' himself - he is a Maiar, as I believe Sauron is too, although the latter is more powerful - I don't think he could safely challenge a greater diety of that world.

And Elminster isn't specifically designed to be unbeatable either. In the BG games he is, but in the books he isn't. He is immensely powerful though, but not a lot more than Raistlin. Even Elminster would be hard-pressed if he would challenge a diety on it's home plane, and remember that he isn't the only Chosen of Mystra.

Just for the sake of argument, if Gandalf were a D&D character, both Elminster and Raistlin would easily be able to beat him.

What book has Elmister in it? I'm a big fan of the books.

however Gandalf is more or les imortal.so you have to take that into account. and the balrog
was the next strongest creature, second only to sauron.

plus gandalf doesnt need a whole bunch of bat guano etc to cast spells plus he doesnt have to re learn used spells

i have to go with gandalf he's one of the strongest of the maiar.he takes so long to beat sauron because he is not allowed to use his true powers.
in human form gandalf would probably lose to elminster.but in his true form he would spank the old gandalf wannabe.i have no idea who the other wizard is.

Raitlin defeats Tiamat? what book did that happen in? (could it be that I'm more behind in my reading than I thought I was?)

I knew that he tried to take out Takhisis, but Tiamat??

Come to think of it, is Tiamat even a goddess of Krynn? I don't remember reading about her.

Well... Thanks a lot for spoiling half the story of lord of the rings. :mad:

As for who is stronger, between those 3, you cannot really say, because it depend on the whim of the writer. Both Elmisters and Raistlin have been made in different version, At first, Elminster was only a mage, then Ed Greenwood wrote the novel about his "childhood" when he was a fighter, thief, priest and then mage. So a new version of elminster was created for the game. Then Ed Greenwood wrote elminster as even more powerfull than that, so a new game version of emlinster came out.

So, he used to be a regular mage, maybe level 20 mage at first. Then they changed it to something like a level 2 fighter/level 5 thief/level 9 priest/level 30 mage. Now in the third edition he is even more powerfull than that.

Same thing for Raistlin, in the pen and paper game, there is NO WAY for a mortal to kill a god. A god can only be killed by one or more other gods of same or more power. But the guy who wrote the dragonlance novels decided it was possible, so Raistlin killed one. Same thing for that bard, "No Name" in the forgotten realm, that weakling bard killed Moander.

So basically, what I am saying is that we can't know wich one is the more powerfull, because the novels writer do not respect any rules, and change the version of their characters as soon as the whim take them. In my opinion, this is not very professional.

Takhisis IS Tiamat.

I go with Rand Al'Thor and Richard Rahl :D . No, seriously, Gandalf the White (not the grey), could easily brush aside Elminster!

I apologize for the un-intentional spoiler, <font color="silver">Luvian</font>, but I didn't mention anything beyond events from the first book The Fellowship of the Rings. With the length of time the books have been out (not to mention the new movie), I assumed the information would be pretty much common knowledge....especially among fantasy readers.

<font color="red">khazadman</font>,
Check out the Dragonlance books by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. <font color="red">Raistlin Majere</font> is definitely in the same class as <font color="yellow">Elminster</font> and <font color="white">Gandalf</font>.

Gandolf would whoop, Rock on, bury that Balrog

Booya! Rand could unleash saidin on all their asses and balefire them to hell :D . Nice to see other Robert Jordan readers out there! But i agree you cant really compare Gandalf to the other 2...though im sure he'd stick em to the wall with his magic like Saruman does to him in da movie :D . And yes Gandalf the White is better then grey..i remember when he sizzels poor legolas's arrow...hehe!

YES! Other Wheel Of Time readers!!! Have you read the 9 book so far? I can't wait for the 10th one, as soon as it come out I am buying it.

If you liked The wheel of Time, I strongly suggest you also read the "A sing of Ice and Fire" series by Goerge R.R. Martin and the "Axis" and " Wayfarer: Redemption" trilogies from Sara Douglass.

As for the lord of the ring, I only read the first one, and that was years ago.

Wait a minute...I thought D&D was loosely based off of Tolkien?

not completely. though the main source came from tolkien.

Raistlin would win. He DID take out Takhisis and then Paladine after that. He was THE supreme being.

dont forget, Elminster is also a master psionicist, along with all of his mage abilities.

Let's look at good and evil.
Gandalf and Elminster would never fight one another, it would be contrary to their alignment.
This leaves poor old Raistlin out on a limb. With this in mind, putting the three in a room would leave poor old Raistlin a little cooked.

If we assume the three were on level pegging with spells we need to look at their other abilities...

Elminster has his Psionics.
Gandalf has his fighting prowess.
Raistlin ... ?

Good discussion thread.

Takhisis IS Tiamat.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, Takhisis is an aspect of the deity better known in the multiverse as Tiamat, the Queen of Evil Dragons. As an intermediate deity, Tiamat has the ability to have multiple aspects on different worlds.

In addition to being the evil goddess Takhisis on Krynn, Tiamat also has a small but growing following in the southern lands of Faerun (Chessenta, Unther and the lands south of the Inner Sea). Her primary role, however, is as the five-headed Chromatic Dragon who guards the entrance to Dis, the second layer of Hell, from intrusions both celestial and abyssal. Her lair is on Avernus, first layer of Hell.

Waaah! The Moderator and his seemingly infinite wisdom strikes again! :eek:

Thanks Memnoch! ;)

ya you guys just lost me there...i guess i need to read these books then?

Thatis because the novel writer said so. If he knew anything of the rules of dungeon and dragons, he would know it is impossible, how many time in D&D novels will you see impossible things happenings, they could never happen, but the novel writer decided to still put them, because they are cool. As an example, take Drizzt killing that demon who jumped on him, because he impaled himself on his frost scimitar. This would NEVER kill the demon. In those novels we can see everything, from apprentice casting anything from 5 magic missile at the same time (you would need to be like level 20 to do that) to fireballs and more. You can see mage casting an infinite number of spells when it is convenient, You can see some nameless bard kill a god on his plane, ... the list goes on for a long time.

That is one of the aspect I don't like about the D&D novels. They never follow any rules, the writer always do anything they feel like too without any regards about the world that has been build before them. To me it is like if you ask one of your friend to Dungeon Master your 3 years game for a night because you are out of town, and when you come back he killed 3 of your major NPCs, cripled 2 pc, destroyed a country and gave the last healty pc the power to kill anything at will. When you get the honor of contributing to such a complex world as D&D, you have the duty to respect what has been done before you, and to pay attention to details.

Nice! I see I am not the only D&D ghuru around here! How long ave you played D&D?

Well, <font color="silver">Luvian</font>, I'm going to have to disagree with you on one point.

It is not IMPOSSIBLE to kill a god in AD&D (especially in avatar form). Admittedly, the chances of defeating a god on their home plane should be infinitely tiny (maybe a 1 in 100,000 chance), but it could technically be done.

I had a dwarf fighter that embarked on a self-imposed quest to kill Grolantar (the Hill God giant and a perpetual racial enemy to dwarves). His goal was to achieve Sainthood as described in one of the "Best of Dragon" magazines.

His quest was successful for a number of reasons.
1) I had a POWERFUL party to back me up (about 6 characters....all over 20th level).
2) The dwarf had the Ring of Gaxx and the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords to aid him (he actually began the initial phase of the Quest when he received the Axe).
3) I received a special blessing directly from my diety, Clangeddin Silverbeard, to aid in the final battle.
4) I had a very lenient DM.

To be honost, I probably would NOT have allowed the victory if I were the DM. But my dwarf had decided that he would either win great honor for his diety or go out in a blaze of glory.

Fantasy and mythology works are filled with stories of mortals challenging the gods themselves. As you said, it's very rare that they succeed, but there is just the slimmest of chances that they could.

And most novels - especially those set in Forgotten Realms and Krynn - DO follow AD&D rules.

The entire Dragonlance series was ROLEPLAYED by Weiss, Hickman, and thier friends. That's why the characters sometimes do unexpected things...because that's how it happened in the game.

For example, the authors admitted that Raistlin was originally a very weak character. Then - in one of the gaming session shortly after changing alignments - the PLAYER used the low, raspy whisper that suddenly made the character seem MUCH more menacing. Weiss and Hickman said that they would NEVER have thought to do that with Raistlin on their own.

Well anyway, I agree with you in theory...it SHOULD be ALMOST completely impossible for a PnP character to defeat a diety....but that's the beauty of PnP...sometimes, you CAN do the impossible.

Hmm... I'd say Gandalf, although I'm not too sure... *shrug* As for Rand Al'THor (or whatever the spelling is), he doesn't seem quite as powerful to me... and, Richard Rahl doesn't seem to even come close... he's poweful, but he couldn't take on Gandalf, Elminster, etc... hmm... well... nah, actually, I'd say Encrad, Lord of the RaBid Fruit Trees would win... [img]smile.gif[/img] Hmm... I wonder if Elminster could stand up to a group of Mirror Lancers... (L.E. Modesitt) They're not too fancy, but the firebolts/firelances are pretty much instant kill... although that's probably because the books are more realistic combat/damage-wise... Hmm... there's someone I'm forgetting... hmm...

No, Cerek, you do not understand, it is IMPOSSIBLE to kill a god. Not his a avatar, his real form. I have it written in front of me in a D&D rulebook.

First of all, a god can only die in his realm. If he die somewhere else he will just reform in his realm after a few days. Also, Only a god of equal or greater power can kill another god, and even then it will be VERY HARD. To have any chance of succes of killing a god in his homeplane you would need more than one god, because the god you want to kill will be in his realm, and HE IS his realm, so watch out for your godly ass if you try.

I know the first main Novels of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms where roleplayed, but only that, the first few, they didn't roleplay every novels they wrote. If I scan my collection of D&D novels, I am sure I can find more than 30 different writers. I am talking about those writers mainly. They don't seem to have a clue what D&D is. I am pretty sure I could find at least 2 errors in every novels.

You see, I am a little fanatic when it come to D&D. I have bought more than 1000$ Of D&D Rulebook, Campain setting, novels... and I have been a Dungeon Master for about 6 years now. I have spent lot of time reading, and re-reading, and re-reading all my rulebook. So you see, I have access to lot of obscure rules not a lot of people have heard about, and when I see "official people" (like novels writers) forget about those rules, it get on my nerves. I am a very professional guy, and I don't like amateur.

Greetings again, <font color="silver">Luvian</font>.

Alright, I didn't know there was an actual rule that stated "No god can be killed" (it's been a loooong time since read through the rulebooks or gamed on a regular basis). I started in 1985 and played pretty steadily up through about 1991, so our gaming experience is fairly even.

AFA the gods, I knew that they would reform if you killed their avatar and that the ONLY way to permanently kill a god was to meet him/her on thier homeplane (which <font color="red">Raistlin</font> did).

My original group would've let you get to the plane, but the party would be TOASTED pretty quickly. Gygax had a bad habit of seriously UNDERpowering the deities, so we determined that the stats given in the DDG were strictly for the avatar form.

On their home plane, the diety would have 10x the number of hit points listed, they would be able to cast any spell of any kind at will 5x round, would have 100% Magic Resistance, etc, etc.

Like you said, it's almost certain suicide - and I agree that my dwarf never should have been able to do it. It didn't matter, though, because I retired him after that dungeon, so I never got to use any of his Saintly abilities.

OK, this has been an enjoyable side-thread, but let's get back to our topic.

Personally, I would have to pick <font color="white">Gandalf</font>. He's the only one that is not "mortal", and as mentioned before, I get the feeling that he never revealed his full power. I firmly believe that <font color="white">Gandalf, the White</font> COULD stand toe-to-toe with Sauron and come out on top, but that's not how the story developed.

<font color="yellow">Elminster</font> - <font color="silver">Mystra</font> has imbued him with some "paranormal" abilities so that he can act on her behalf, but in the end, he is still MOSTLY mortal. He is very powerful, but I would still have to give the edge to <font color="white">Gandalf</font>.

<font color="red">Raistlin Majere</font> - while he is arguably one of the most powerful wizards ever created, the fact remains that he is completely mortal. He may be much more devious and cunning than <font color="yellow">Elminster</font> or <font color="white">Gandalf</font>, but he simply doesn't have the sheer, raw power they do.

A couple of my friends had high-level mages of their own that could easily have faced off with <font color="red">Raistlin</font> and come out on top.

AAMOF, I would put my own beloved <font color="red">Cerek</font> up against him any day. He's a 28th level barbarian with 400hp and some serious Magic Resistance of his own that he gained from an artifact. He swings a +5 Githyanki Sword of Sharpness (2-hand). <font color="red">Raistlin</font> may be very strong, but he's going to have a hard time casting with no arms, and he's only going to get to cast one spell before I'm on top of him (his best bet would be the dreaded Time Stop).

Alright, now I'M getting off topic again....sorry.

Thanks to everyone who has participated so far. Let's keep it going. I'm really enjoying hearing all these different opinions.

It's what you call literary license. ;)

There are ways to kill a god. Fantastic ways to be sure, and almost impossible to mere mortals, and certainly not something as mundane as slaying a god's avatar. But there are ways. ;)

IMHO, you guys butchered this thread as soon as you started debating the D&D rules and whether or not you can kill gods. Lets just leave it at Ganalf...agreed? Hehehe. You know wahts a bad-ass song? Total Immortal by AFI....hmmm yep

I have to agree there, about the whole challenging of Gods and such, it just makes books more interesting.

The moderator bought up a great point about the Literary License, no author has to obey the rules. :D

Besides, how do you write a book based on a game with rules? I mean, sure it may say 'apprentice' for a character in the book, but does this neccessarily mean that the apprentice is a Level 1 whatever class they are? Some people apprentice themselves out when they already have skills and want to learn more. There's always someone more skillful after all.

Plus, if you take reality for an instance, people experience life experiences faster than other people. The D&D rules seem pretty unrealistic when it comes to this. How can every single character created in a D&D campaign learn at the same exact rate? Sure, it doesn't happen, but it's set that way. You only get a certain amount of experience for whatever monster you kill. Someone can automatically kill, lets say, 2 billion Goblins, and they would be just as experienced as someone who has killed 20 dragons. How does that work though?

I mean, if all this person has killed is Goblins, then how does that qualify them to kill a Dragon?

[ 03-29-2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Jerr Conner ]

I agree with Cerek, this is off topic.

If we only look at the power those mages have, and forget about God killings and other such hobbies, I would give my vote to Elminster.

Why? Because he has the backup of a Deity, and she like him a lot. Those of you Who read the Novel "Elminster in Hell" will know what I mean. Mystra killed millions of demons, so much that there was so much blood all over the first layer of hell she nearly drowned Elminster. The only reason she did not keep on killing more of them is that she was creating a rift between hell and the Forgotten Realm. She sent almost every single powerfull characters of Forgotten Realms after Elminster, from the Simbul to Halaster Blackcloack, the infamous mad wizard living in undermountain. She even granted them even more power than they already had in her quest to get Elminster back.

[ 03-29-2002, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

Personally, I think I am a more powerful magic user than they... [img]tongue.gif[/img] where I come from, I am so powerful that magic cannot be used directly on myself. So this topic is a moot point, I'd whoop all of 'em ;)

Last timei checked, you werent an AD&D character :D

Last timei checked, you werent an AD&D character :D </font>[/QUOTE]Hmm... not as of yet Milady, though with a bit of music and a rhyme, just maybe? eh, but after last night, I realize that couch isn't all too comfortable.. so I'll not even fathom going into this further ;)

Here's one for you godslayers, to the tune of Coolio's Gangsta's Paradise. Courtesy of Brian Ostermeyer.

<font color="yellow">
Munchkin Paradise
(Sung to Gangsta's Paradise by Coolio, new words by Brian 'Cevalic' Ostermeyer)

As I walk through the valley filled with vampric dragons
I take a look at my inventory and pulled out plus ten flagons
Cause I've been hacking and slaying so long
Even my DM forgets that I learned the rules wrong.
But I ain't never got an item that was too out of line.
My character's treated like a king, a PC ahead of his time.
Gods be watchin what they sayin when they hear that I'm playin.
I really hate to brag but I killed Tiamat --
I did it bare handed cause she made me mad, fool.
I'm the kinda PC every gamer wanna be like,
On my throne in the night
A king with godly might.

Chorus:
We've been spending most our time
Gaming in a munchkin paradise.
Rolled for godhood once or twice,
Gaming in a muncking paradise.
We've been spending most our time
Gaming in a munchkin paradise.
Rolled for godhood once or twice,
Gaming in a munchkin paradise.

Forget the situation, DM got me facin --
I can't play when magic lacks, I was raised on artifacts.
So I gotta find a DM down with me;
I let my brother DM even though he's three.
I'm above the average gamer with gold on my mind.
Got a crossbow in my hand, slaying bolts plus nine.
I'm a pumped up power gamer, just a little tweaked
And my followers are down, even if they're freaks, fool.
Death ain't never gonna touch my PC --
Soon I'll kill Vecna, then you'll all see.
I'm a demi-god now, but will I live to be a diety?
The way things is goin it's for sure.

Tell me why are you - so mad at me?
Cause my guy's a god? - you hate me?

Chorus

Gold and the magic, magic and the gold,
Pile after pile, load after load.
Everybody's bowing, but none of them ain't seein
My ultra master plan, to destory all the heathens.
They say I got to quit, but nobody's gonna change me.
If they can't play with power, how can they game with me?
I guess they can't, I guess they won't,
I guess they leave; that's why I know my game is just solo...

Chorus

</font>

I'm sure you can relate...

"That is one of the aspect I don't like about the D&D novels. They never follow any rules, the writer always do anything they feel like too without any regards about the world that has been build before them."

Thank God writers don't write by the rules. If they did, given constant changes and additions, the books would be obsolete every three years.

Even introducing that arguement is ridiculous.

I can't comment much on the books... but I finally remembered the mages I forgot to mention...

Jehlak (or whatever his name is, the super-powerful mage from The Colors of Chaos by L.E. Modesitt) - he had enough power to destroy large cities and raise a small mountain range. Fancy...

Someone else... forgot again... and, my personal pick...

Durlok (cackle... a Black Mage from Voyage of the Fox Rider by Dennis L. McKiernan) - eh... ok, putting this in spoiler format, since it might ruin part of the book... I'll just say (other than the spoiler) that he's INSANELY powerful... (!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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Alrighty, then... Durlok had enough power to first defeat the combined power of most of the mages in the world, all at one time. Now, considering how magic works in McKiernan's books (it uses life energy, although mages can do a fancy version of resting to regain lost life energy), and since after all those mages were done trying to stop him, they were all very old, and all the power was wielded and targetted by one person... that by itself is pretty fancy. Then, after doing that, he smashed a continent. I don't meen destroyed the cities, or burned everything, or whatever. He did something or other smashy and it sort of broke and then sank under the ocean. Pretty powerful, I'd say. Let's see Elminster do that... oh, and did I mention that mages there are immortal unless they're killed by someone? *grin* *cackle*
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There we go, then... hmm... personally, I'd guess that at the height of his power Durlok could probably defeat at least two of the other mages at one time... *cackle* *grin* *tip*

EVERY damn fantasy world is loosely based on on Tolkiens Middle Earth [img]smile.gif[/img]

Arnt I talked about in DnD? Wen I first got this name, I thoght it was a guy dragon, not a GIRL! I want to change my displayed name!