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What's up with these kids? We just had another kid go on a shooting spree here in San Diego this morning. It pisses me off that the parents aren't watching their kids and now two other kids are dead
[This message has been edited by turbovee (edited 03-05-2001).] |
I know that something like this effects everyone. I know there are days at my school where I watch very carefully what I say to some students.
Most days are fine -- and then something like that happens to make me think that there's no guarantee that my school won't be next. |
FB, there are no guarantees. I saw the interview with father of friend of shooter- he had spoken to him of it the night before, because some of the kids were talking about him talking about it- he was asked about it, but how much more can you intervene directly? When I was teaching at MSU in 89, a student that had been in one of my frosh speech sections the quarter before was harassed in much the same way as this student was, took a shotgun and killed the 2 boys who had been torturing him right in their dorm room. No talk about doing it, or anything else, either. How do you keep kids from instinctively picking viciously on those they see as different or weak? You know that is a result of their upbringing, and teachers can only intervene so far. I have no answers, I guess, only questions, sigh...
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It's a horrible thing to see happening more and more often. I don't think there is any one answer to why,either. Our society has changed the way we deal with family and children. It's a complex issue. More violence in the streets, in the schools , on television, movies, games, music...and kids feel isolated already. Add teasing and ridicule and you can get a volatile reaction.
Just my two cents worth. Cloudy ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memn...y/tornado1.gif Storm-Queen StormCloud of the Black Knight |
I always wonder why people become so violent these days. look at Indonisia. The locals slaughter 1000 alian people (i forgot THE people's name), and each kill, they locals took their heads, some of the locals even eat the corpse's hearts and drink their blood, saying this can grant them strength.
Isrial and Balastine hass always been on fire. Isrial now is suspecting everyone to put a bomb in their building, or do some public shooting. Hundreds of people died between the two sides. 500 prisoners in Basi attempt to escape the prison, and 5 people got shot to death. Kosowo had a big battle against its neouber (sorry, forgive my limited english vocabulares) for 3 hours. American school kids join the world wide violent stream, and shoot two of their school mates to death... man, this world is getting way too small, tell you what, mideast and midwest asain will be where the third world war start. USA is a bitch, for maintaining its control of oil at mideast area, USA supposrt Isrial and which in turn accelerat the conflicts. that is where the war starts man... a bad war, a terrible one, have you heard that Satamum has 9 nuclear bombs? it is a rumor.. but a rumor can be truth how pitiful people fight amoung themselves over this kinda things!! |
From what i know
People my age are often drawn to violence for the "coolness" of it Me personaly i'm a very calm kinda guy I actualy think violent computer gamez can help people get less agressief as you can Shoot people with out killing them But it's not only schools you people are dying all over Landmine for excemple Now there's this treaty a non landmine production-placing-exporting treaty But The USA keeps on refusing top sign it You have any idea why? Coz i sure don't ------------------ The Legend Rikard T'Aranaxz Master Necromancer Clanmaster and Mental Father of the OHF |
Wasn't that Santee, or is that already Sand Diego? Was that recent? Or are there more? There is also like a trend here... first, here in our school, some shot himself two times in the head after the other girl school prom... and then recently, a popular type of girl shot herself. She was in Miriam College, Beside Ateneno de Manila, our school. Geez...
------------------ http://tobbin.tripod.com/sephlove.gif Tifa has her Cloud, Squall his Rinoa, Sephiroth?? hehe |
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But after going through that experience, I can see the point of view of the shooter too. He was very wrong in what he did, but the school system & society as a whole needs to come up with some EFFECTIVE way to deal with harrassment & abuse between peers. ------------------ http://www.paulbunyan.net/mnssc/redcelticdragon2.gif Having abandoned my search for truth, I am now looking for a good Fantasy. |
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It makes my blood boil just thinking about it! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-.../angryfire.gif Just my opinion. I'll get off my soapbox now. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif ------------------ http://www.paulbunyan.net/mnssc/redcelticdragon2.gif Having abandoned my search for truth, I am now looking for a good Fantasy. |
When I see things on Tv like this shooting, or other violence I get so angry. What the Hell is happening to this world?? What drives a kid that far to bring a gun to school and blow people away. Ok this is where I probably touch on politically incorrect, and I might upset a few people, I apologize in advance but this s*!t really pisses me off. I'm sure I'm going to offend a few people...it is not my intention, but, my opinion
I would like to know where the parents of these kids are, granted you can't watch you kids 24/7, you work, and all other things that parents do. But come on aren't there things you notice about you kids, behavior changes. I can remember a time when I could walk to kindergarten, 5 years old, 1/2 mile to school, and be safe. We used to cut through backyards to make the trip quicker, and not be worried about getting shot. My mom had this ritual about once a month she would "clean" my room for me. She basically knew what was going on and wouldn't put up with any funny business. She also worked full time. Are we so wrapped up in our own lives that we are oblivious to what is going on around us? The other day there was an article in the local paper. At the Catholic High School I went to one of the priests was Beat up. He had a broken jaw, bruised face, and his head was put through the wall. II had this techer, as every freshman does, he commands respect, demands disipline, and is fair. He was the one teacher that affected me the most, made the biggest impression on me and others. How could some student do this to this guy, a priest no less!?! What the Hell is this world coming to?? Again, I would like to apologize if anyone was offended, it was not my intention. I just wanted to put my two cents in. ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/wildleprechaun/merlin.gif Feel My Power |
I just heard something disturbing......In minnesota a five year old girl brought a gun to school....
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Oddly enough I saw this on TV and immediately thought of you Turbovee.
A f****ng shame is all I can say. I don't know if it's the gun laws, parentage or what it is. All I know is that the bullet that kills the son also wounds the mother. A lot of people got hurt there today. Imho guns are far too prevalent and available in some societies. The majority of English people have never seen a gun and would far less know how to obtain one. (Not bragging or hyping, just using us as an example.) Bullying etc. Yes valid points and strangely enough the reason that I had to move out from the lesbian girls I lived with. (The one mentioned to you and Cloudbringer.) Jenny's daughter lived with her father and went on a school camping trip. The girl she was tent sharing with was constantly bullied for the week they were there and Alex looked after this poor little girl. Nearing the last night they went or were forced (through childish indiscretion rather than malevolence I believe) to a dark part of the woods. Well the next thing we hear is that there's been a multiple stabbing and Alex is involved. The girl involved was terrified and had armed herself with a knife and lashed out through fear injuring some of her abusers. These kids were 11yrs old. One is now convicted of whatever crimes although she was the original victim, and some kids are hurt. It didn't turn out too bad for Alex other than being forced to leave that school and moving back this way to live with her mum. Just think what a terrible scenario that could have been if guns were available. Yes we could do an autopsy on the level of care given them by their guardians and we could dissect the psychological attitudes impressed or learnt by them from their parents/surroundings in their earlier years but it will do no good now. It's impossible to bring all kids up "stable" and it's impossible to keep an eye on all kids at all times. It shouldn't (at least I don't think it should) be impossible to keep firearms away from them. I just can't help but feel that if guns weren't as prevalent in society as they are today then a lot of these things would never happen. ------------------ One love, peace. |
Ban the Gun.
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http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/frown.gifhttp://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/frown.gifhttp://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/frown.gif I don't understand why this happens. I could echo other's disbelief, but I won't. Just makes me sad, and makes me not want to teach even more, even thought I have a teaching degree. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/frown.gifhttp://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/frown.gifhttp://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/frown.gif
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Ban the f---ing Gun! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...smiles/mad.gif
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How about enforce the laws for every one......
------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/wildleprechaun/merlin.gif Feel My Power |
I was bullied loads at school, and have even been physically abused in the street by people I don't know and have never even seen before, and simply because I am over-weight. I can say for sure that on several occasions, if I had been armed, I would now be responsible for murder. Its a scary thought but I as much as I despised the bullies, I don't think I would have thought to highly of myself as a killer, IMHO life is too precious. I haven't seen the news today, so I haven't heard about the latest shooting, therefore please don't consider my comments as specific to this, only in the wider context.
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As the mother of two young children, I worry about the world I'm supposed to set them free into. So, instead of sitting here and getting walked on by my kids, I'm known as a hard ass. I make sure my girls are nice, polite young children. They get punished for not only hitting but for rudeness. I expect my five yr old to clean her room. My grandmother would be proud, I'm her type of mother.
What does all this have to do with school shootings? I do believe that it is a reflection of todays lack of general parenting skills. Recently, here in RI, a 6 yr old was suspended for one day for kicking her teacher. The girl's father appealed the decision and took the case before the school board claiming the punishment was too harsh. He is quoted as saying "How could I look at my daughter when she was grown and have her ask 'Why didn't you do everything to protect me?'" His best bet for protecting her would be to teach her that it's wrong to harm anybody (especially authority figures) and to take responsibility for her actions. That's what so much of this is about- responsibility. Or rather a lack there of. I could go on for quite a while as I feel rather strongly about this subject. I won't get into the public school aspect. I will finish by saying we all need to step up and be good examples for the next generations. They learn what we teach them. |
Just a bit of optimism. Statistics give your child a better chance of dying in a car accident than in a school shooting. I still plan on protecting my child as much as possible though.
I agree with Rikard in that playing games, especially D&D, allowed me to grow up with a sharper distinction between reality and fantasy. I don't credit D&D for all of this. My mother had a lot to do with it. It is amazing how many parents don't take an active role in raising their children. You would be amazed (or maybe not) at how many parents respond to concerns over a student's behavior with by saying, "Well I don't know what to do either." It gets very frustrating. I guess I don't entirely understand that line. There is nothing I wouldn't do to make sure my kids grow up to be the best they can. |
My daughter is nine and has had problems in school with being teased. We even changed her school this year because it got so bad at her last school. My daugher is like my husband, sweet, kind, intellectual, unassertive, and reflective and nice to EVERYBODY. When someone is mean to them, they turn it inward and think they have done something. One thing I love about my husband and daughter are their sensitivity. But, I think my daughter is going to have to toughen up some because so many other kids see a sensitive child who won't fight back and "go for the throat." Bilqis: I've thought about pulling her out of school altogether and have my husband home-school her.
I guess what I'm trying to say is there is no excuse for what the kid in San Diego did, but I think I can understand how someone can be pushed to the limit and snap. Unfortunately, (I'm not saying always) boys seem to tend to take out their frustrations through violence. Girls do too, but with boys it seems they lash out at others (like this thing in San Diego), while girls turn more inward and it manifests itself more in suicide. My daughter gets alot of support at home and I think that helps; I worry about the kids that don't get support at home. ------------------ Reeka--The Hand of Death |
I would like to start by saying that I am 100% for a Ban on Guns! There are instances (hunting/sport shooting....) where guns should be allowed, but why anybody needs a gun in their bedside table in beyond me.
As for the issue of school shootings....and not just that, but teenage violence in general (and I am only speaking for the US as I do not know the rest of the world situations enough to give an educated opinion) 1) I find it a shame that we only hear about the "white, suburbanite" kids that shoot their "white, suburbanite" classmates at school. I blame this on the media. We hear little snip-its here and there about other violence but nothing to the degree of 'columbine' or now 'san diego'.....we need to start reacting to all teenage violence not just the "rich white kids" 2) The problem is beyond what is portrayed. After these shootings we always hear about "where was the parent?", "what went wrong?"......well here are a few statistics that may startle you and show a little of what the actual problem might be ---------------------------- These are 2000 stats for the US #18 years and younger = 63,604,432 #with one parent = 13,809,652 %with one parent = 22% ---------------------------- # of adults (25+) with less than 9th grade education = 16,502,211 # of adults (25+) with a graduate degree = 11,477,686 I am not saying that you need a graduate degree to be successful or raise children, but it is shocking that there are more high school drop-outs in america than MD's, PhD's, or JD's........how can we expect our kids to do any better when many of their parents only went through 8th grade ----------------------------------------------------- Median household income (poverty line) = $17,654 #households with only female parent = 10,381,654 #households (female parent) w/ children under 18 = 6,783,155 # living below poverty = 2,866,941 % living below poverty = 42% These kids are 55% more likely to commit any crime and 72% more likely to commit a violent crime Is this a parenting issue??? I don't know......this is an issue that society as a whole has to step up and deal with....we cannot lay ALL of the blame on the parents! ------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif |
I agree with Gray Mage and Zenith about the parent issues. As a parent of 3 kids, I do not want my kids going to school with a gun because of someone picking on them. I do not let my kids watch any violent movies or play any violent video games. They do not watch me play my games that I play on the computer. I do not allow it. I have also showed them other ways of releasing their anger besides in a violent way. Now that my son is the school and I see the shootings that happen in other schools, it worries me. We own guns but my kids are being taught the safe ways of handling them and what can happen if they are not handled properly. We do not leave our guns out for our children to get and they are not loaded. When other people come to our house, our guns are locked up. We make sure of that so other kids that do not know about guns, cannot get to them. We take every safety route that we can when it comes to our guns. I wish that parents would take more time to show our children what guns are capable of. We cannot blame the gun, it did not load itself and shoot someone. I know that we can't blame everything on the parents but we as parents need to be more active in our children's lives. I hope that I didn't offend anyone. I guess I am lucky to be able to stay home with my kids and I hope that I am teaching them the right things.
------------------ http://angelfire.lycos.com/rpg/stealthy/FairyDragon.gif Draconia, Dragon Queen |
Rikard-regarding the landmines the US does not export them to any country and the only place we have them deployed is in South Korea on the northern border. Our refusal to sign the treaty is based on the safety of both our and South Korean forces and people. Relations there seem to be thawing a bit and maybe soon there will be no need for them
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Just realised my earlier post didn't come out quite how I meant - it sounds as though I am defending the kids who shoot their classmates, this I am not in favour of. However I do know what's it like to be bullied to distraction. Very often when I tried to retalliate with violence - fist fights, I would be the one who either got beaten up when it was older kids, or got hauled before the teacher for fighting against smaller kids who supposedly "couldn't defend themselves".
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I hope that I don't piss anyone off but I don't think that banning guns will solve the problem. I think it might cause more of a problem then solve it. The US has enough trouble keeping the crime rate down, can you imagine what would happen if guns are banned? It would be major caos. Alot of people would be mad and things could get out of control. We need to do things to make guns not so easily available to our children. It has to start at home with our own guns (those parents that own guns). We need to go after the guys on the streets who will sell any gun to anyone who has the money. This is a very touchy issue so I am going to stop here. I just don't want to make everyone mad at me and no longer talk to me because of my feelings towards guns.
------------------ http://angelfire.lycos.com/rpg/stealthy/FairyDragon.gif Draconia, Dragon Queen |
This whole thing of people/kids going around shooting people is just baffling to me. I can see getting pissed off. Happens all the time. You yell ,scream, and maybe sort things out. Maybe get in a fight. Maybe just be sneaky and get even. But going on a killing spree? I just dont get it.
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Hi Draconia, I agree banning guns would be difficult. As you say people should be A LOT more careful with these weapons. I dont have any kids but if I did you can bet my rifle would be inaccessible AND have a trigger lock on it. Unfortunately if someone wants something badly they can probably get it. Here or in any country in the world.
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Draconia,
I do not want to start an argument....I do not know your family situation well enough to warrant that....however I have to state this: If you look at the past 4 school shooting you will see one common factor.....all the 'shooters' had knowledge of guns taught to them by their parents and/or grandparents. It is not only the knowledge of how to operate a gun, but knowing that gun(s) are available at home that makes these kids dangerous. The kid in Portland (kip kingle?) the kids in Arkansas, and the kid in San Diego all got their guns at home and all were taught 'gun safety' by their parents....the kids at Columbine bought their guns, but were taught 'gun safety' by their parents. Just b/c you lock up your guns doesn't make them inaccessable.....if a kid has gotten to the point of wanting to shoot another kid they will not be detered by a locked gun cabinet! We have to make guns totally 100% inaccessable to children. There is no other answer. As long as kids have access to guns we will continue to see violent episodes like "portland, arkansas, columbine, and san diego"! ------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif |
Moridin, I think that if we enforce the laws we have, there won't be a need to ban guns. Not that that will work because ther will always be a way to get them.
I think what Drconia was saying is that not only gun safety, but Morality and discipline are being taught. There is a time and a place for guns...hunting, target practice, etc. Not when somebody pisses you off In the instances you mentioned they were taught gun safety, but the parents had no Idea what there kids were into. They said that, they dressed in black and when they look back saw signs, but didn't take the time to see what the hell was going on. These kids had a pad-lock on there closet. When i was growing-up my parents motto was my house my rules. If I didn't like it I could move out. Now if these parents didn't know why there was a lock, or that there was a lock there is something wrong. They need to be involved in their kids life. Anyway this is an issue that I feel strongly about...no offensehttp://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/wildleprechaun/merlin.gif Feel My Power [This message has been edited by Gray Mage (edited 03-06-2001).] |
Draconia, we may disagree, even heartily so, but your kids will still have uncle Yorick http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif
We had a lunatic in Tasmainia decide to go a spree in Port Arthur. The only positive to come out of such maddess and terrible destruction was that the Govt. FINALLY introduced tough gun laws. Yes it caused problems, yes a "Shooters Party" was formed and gets the 'redneck' vote from angry farmers etc. But for crying out loud, the truth remains that a child with a knife in a rage can be tackled by an adult. A child with a gun will kill an adult, many adults. Why do you need a gun for security? Because everyone has one! I have never owned a gun, never even held one. I believe that in Britain (correct me if Iīm wrong Brits) not even the Bobbies carry guns. Banning them totally brings everyone down to the same level. The US has a unique position in the world regarding guns. I believe it has the highest percentage of gun ownership anywhere (correct me if Iīm wrong). Gun + Liquor + Gang = Deaths Gun + Tempory insanity = Death(s) The gun gives a person so much more power of destruction than their own power. It is an instrument designed to take life. DESIGNED TO DESTROY LIFE. Passionately I believe in this and passionately I will argue it. Never would I not talk to one who disagrees however http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif ------------------ FAIR DINKUM! |
Being a suffer of buillying and prujuce(?) I and understand what they feel, I often though of taking such actions against the people who bullied me. If i had a gun I might of, but I didn't and so they lived. But the fact we have don't guns hasn't stoped school kids getting extreme revenge, at my old school a lead pipe or baseball bat, even a kitchen knife was taken from students. I don't connode their actions but I understand what they must of felt. I'm afaid to belevie that even if guns were baned, this would keep happening. It the dark side of the human soul.......Sometimes I think it would be better if we as a spieces never existed.
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Whoa, Gabe, donīt think that man. We are capable of such beauty too. I was at a lake yesterday and I saw some ducks. Some people eat duck (I have before now). A human can either eat it or feed it, which we often do.
The news always focuses on the negative because itīs so rare. How many more towns DIDNīT have a lunatic kid on a rampage. Will we ever see the headline: Amazing: Five billion people stayed alive today. What about: Miracle: Mother gives birth. How about: Human writes poem! These are all to common, more so than a luny with a gun. Remember that some destruction is inevitable and part of the cycle of life. How many microbes do you kill when you sit or lie down, or walk? How many do you feed though when you throw a bun into a bush? |
Good point Yorick!! It is too bad that the human race seems to thrive on Negativity. We'll buy that paper that says 15 slain in Rampage rather than %00 billion people stayed alive today. Why is it this way I wonder???
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But Rikard? Do you think that if that "cool" violence weren't everywhere you look -tv , games, music and videos, movies , books etc. that it would be cool to do violence for people your age? I mean if it weren't being made so "popular" by entertainers and such? Cloudy ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memn...y/tornado1.gif Storm-Queen StormCloud of the Black Knight |
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Oh do I understand you, bilqis! One of my closest friends is going through problems with her 14 yr old son who is like your own, intelligent and not socially graceful, so he's teased mercilessly. She just put him into a Catholic school this year to try and cope with the problems. My own priest and his wife (explanation for those who don't know, Episcopal priests marry/etc , the church is part of Anglican communion)anyway, they have fostered and adopted many children over the years (geez I think the current adopted count is 12 or more plus two biological children). They home school all of them until jr or sr high and sometimes longer. They do it to try and instil their moral and ethical beliefs as well as give good education. They fear the violence and the lack of respect for other human beings is just too pervasive and want their kids (many who come from abusive and neglectful situations to start with!) to learn to respect the dignity of each human being and to value life. It's not an easy thing to do! Cloudy ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memn...y/tornado1.gif Storm-Queen StormCloud of the Black Knight |
Gray Mage, this is my theory:
Our default setting seems to be set to viewing the negative. Itīs harder to look at a situation and see the positive because itīs all around. The negative is so rare that it hits us in the face. A 'lot' of it weighs us down. Itīs also harder to create than destroy. A CD can take months to create yet is snapped in a second. (Iīve had my own disc snapped by someone once.) Same with a painting or pieces of pottery. Creating takes more energy. Feeding a duck takes sacrifice (bread for it - rather than me), childbirth an incredible amount of sacrifice, effort and pain. Papers/The News etc. are about making money, we see something horrific and read, or watch. Do we feel better? Is our existance enhanced? Thatīs not the point to the media owner is it. Pardon my cynical view if youīre a Media Mogul. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif Anyhow being alive is good. Letīs enjoy the short time while we have it, acknowledge that shit will happen, our plans will get crapped on, and embrace the ride. ------------------ FAIR DINKUM! [This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 03-06-2001).] |
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money, voilence, sex, drug.... those are the things I see. these are the fruits of morden society. it is not all about guns, guns are just a conveniant tool here. a tool to express those generation's anger and confusion. how sad it is. american gov, sorry i have to bring this up, is worrying more about their GDP and oil supply than their people's spiritual growth. it is time to have a change. |
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CB ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memn...y/tornado1.gif Storm-Queen StormCloud of the Black Knight |
I do understand what everyone is trying to say about guns. I do not want to start an arguement so I am not going to comment on anything. But we do need to look at other factors in the story when it comes to those kids that were willing to kill.
Gray Mage- Thank you. You are right about what else I am was trying to say. Yorick- Or should I say, Uncle Yorick, I think you are right about the gun ownership thing in the US. Take Care sweetie. Everyone has a right to their own opinions, ideas and thoughts. That is what makes us unique. So I will not say anymore. I think it would be in my best interest to shut my mouth and just listen to what everyone else's opinions are. Take Care everyone. ------------------ http://angelfire.lycos.com/rpg/stealthy/FairyDragon.gif Draconia, Dragon Queen |
I just can't help but think that it's the accessability of guns that are the issue. True, LoA that anyone wanting a gun could obtain it. In this country (England/UK in general) that would be more difficult than you might think. You would pretty much need some some connections to villains to start with and for most people guns and villainy are not an everyday thing. Guns aren't sold "over the counter" per se and they are not directly available unless you use an illegal route or can prove their place in your posession is legal and acceptable to the police.
Guns CAN be obtained, don't get me wrong but they are not the kind of thing that is common here. The fact that guns are so commonplace in other countries makes their availability to others/minors more possible. The increased availability makes the gun crime figures speak for themselves. If guns aren't available so commonly then kids couldn't get hold of them in the first place. I also feel sorry for the kids that accidently shoot people and even those youngsters that commit some of these atrocities (I obviously feel for the victims.) A lot of the time they don't have a clear understanding of what it really means to kill or maim someone and are too young to be FULLY responsible for their actions. There may be hundreds of kids rotting away learning the crafts of villainy in some prisons who may never have been in the position they're in now......save for the fact that a gun was accessible to them in the first place. ------------------ One love, peace. |
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