Here's the deal: I'm building a multiplayer party of folks to take into BG2, in my neverending quest for the definitive "Team Kickass." This is the party I'm working with in my head:

Dwarven Fighter (Tank)
Paladin (substitute Tank, highest CHA)
Elven Mage/Thief
Thief -> Fighter
Fighter -> Cleric
Druid -> Fighter

This gives me: A Regenerating Tank, a Cavalier, a Fighter/Thief with the Backstab from Hell, both sets of Priest spells, a Mage with a bow (who also keeps my Thieving skills alive while my primary Thief is Dualing), and a Fighter/Cleric and Fighter/Druid with MUCH better hitpoints, THAC0, and weapon stars than a straight class would have.
The problem: I have only half a Mage. And I've heard that Mages end up becoming the most powerful members of the party.

So, I want to drop either the Paladin or the Dwarf, and fill their slot with a Fighter -> Mage. But which one? Do I want my best front-line brawler to be constantly regaining health, or do I want a Cavalier with more Special Abilities and advantages against 'classic' monsters? I need your opinions, as I don't have BG2 yet.

(Of course, there's also the option of building a Dwarven Cleric, and so having 20 CON and a Cavalier, but then I miss my chance of giving him better THAC0, etc. I'm still considering it, though.)

i say, drop the mage/thief. then, use that slot to make a SORCEROR!!!! sorceror's are EASILY the most powerful of ALL magic users, if not characters in general. if you have a fighter/thief, then your thieving skills are pretty much taken care of. two thieves are fun, but if you want magic, then a STRAIGHT mage or sorceror is the way to go. unless you dual him from another class at an early level to a mage. otherwise, it will be a sweet group. if i were you, i would make the paladin my main character as well. then you can get the paladin stronghold. that is just me though. its good cause you get good items and lots of experience when you do it. just my two gold pieces though.

Well for starters I assume by druid --> fighter you mean multiclass, since you can't dual from a druid.

Second it really won't take very long to get your thief skills back after dualling to a fighter, so I wouldn't have a multi mage/thief just for that, since you'll be slow levelling and won't get as powerful. Plus you've got heaps of firepower so one more bow for your mage isn't that important, and slings and darts are good. A better idea would be to dual a fighter to a mage if you want one that has good weapons and fighting ability.

If it were me, I'd get rid of the druid/fighter for your second mage, because the extra spells they have aren't that valuable. But if you're choosing between fighter and paladin, then keep the paladin, since you've got three fighters already. IMHO [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Aelia Jusa:
Well for starters I assume by druid --> fighter you mean multiclass, since you can't dual from a druid.
<hr></blockquote>
You CAN'T? Well, snot! No, I meant Druid Dualed to Fighter, but if it can't be done....poopie. (I obviously need to learn more about Druids, huh? Not to mention getting my hands on a BG2 or SoA manual.) I don't know if you can go the other way (Fighter -> Druid), but even so, that's a maximum of 13/14 for BG2, which is really weak, compared to the rest of the party. Why am I telling you this? You know this.

So, POOF! goes my Druid, even though that Insect Plague spell sounded pretty cool. And *SHAZAM!* into the empty slot goes my Fighter -> Mage. And I'm definitely keeping my Elven Mage/Thief; one of the coolest combos there is, in my book, and having 2 Thieves means you can max out all your skills, and do it FAST, which I like. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I notice both of you suggested I keep the Cavalier; I also notice that Dwarves in general get short shrift on this board: Everyone seems to be playing either an Assassin, a Kensai->Mage, a Sorceror, or a cheesy I-ran-through-BG1-six-times-and-Tomed-myself-up-to-all-25s character.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SixOfSpades:


I notice both of you suggested I keep the Cavalier; I also notice that Dwarves in general get short shrift on this board: Everyone seems to be playing either an Assassin, a Kensai->Mage, a Sorceror, or a cheesy I-ran-through-BG1-six-times-and-Tomed-myself-up-to-all-25s character.<hr></blockquote>

I would have suggested keeping the cavalier whether your fighter was a dwarf, or a human, or a bag of nails, I just thought that it would be better to have a paladin since your weapon choices could be better utilised and since almost all your other characters were fighters of some sort [img]smile.gif[/img] And don't worry, not many people think playing a character with 25 for all stats is particularly clever, or fun ;)

Yes, you CAN TOO Dual-class a Druid!

Or at least you can in BG1. I just tested it. Are you sure about not being able to in BG2? Now I just have to make sure there's at least one good Scimtar in BG2--and find out the level cap on Druids in ToB. So I'll keep my Druid, and my party is back to always having a competent healer.
And you're right about my party having enough half-Fighters, Aelia, so I'm dropping the Dwarf, cool though he was. I'd always liked the Cavalier-as-PC idea, as I like leading the party, and having high CHA. Guess I'll have to settle for 19 CON, as I don't foresee being able to build a Dwarven Paladin anytime soon. (Although I like the Bag-of-nails Fighter idea; everytime I take a hit in a melee, the enemy recieves damage too, right?)

P.S.: One thing I've always hated (or at least wanted to change) about Dwarves: Halflings get a THAC0/Damage bonus with the Sling. Elves get a THAC0/Damage bonus with the Bow and Long Sword. Do Dwarves get a THAC0/Damage bonus with the Axe and Warhammer? No sirree Bob, even though the Dwarven Axeman is every bit as classic as the Elven Archer! Arrrrrrrrgh.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SixOfSpades:
Yes, you CAN TOO Dual-class a Druid!

Or at least you can in BG1. I just tested it. Are you sure about not being able to in BG2? Now I just have to make sure there's at least one good Scimtar in BG2--and find out the level cap on Druids in ToB. So I'll keep my Druid, and my party is back to always having a competent healer.
And you're right about my party having enough half-Fighters, Aelia, so I'm dropping the Dwarf, cool though he was. I'd always liked the Cavalier-as-PC idea, as I like leading the party, and having high CHA. Guess I'll have to settle for 19 CON, as I don't foresee being able to build a Dwarven Paladin anytime soon. (Although I like the Bag-of-nails Fighter idea; everytime I take a hit in a melee, the enemy recieves damage too, right?)
<hr></blockquote>

LOL, especially if they're rusty nails [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] . Tetanus shots, Firkraag ;) ?

Well, the BGII manual says you can't dual class from paladins, rangers, or druids, so I don't think you can :(

You can dual a True Neutral Fighter with appropriate stats to a Druid, but you cannot dual from a Druid.

you can also dual a ranger to a cleric if im not mistaken.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant:
you can also dual a ranger to a cleric if im not mistaken.<hr></blockquote>

That is correct.

try dualling a thief to a cleric as well, especially swashbucklers.

You know, not being able to Dual a Druid would really be the kiss of death for that character.
"Hey, Cletus, how can we make the Druid a really sucky class to be?"
"Gee, that's a thinker, Bubba. Uh, hey, how 'bout we make it so you can only advance to Level 14, and then you can't Dual to anything."
"Yeah, there you go! You'll be Prez-ee-dent in no time."

Could someone out there with BG2 build a Human Druid with at least 17 STR and see if you can Dual to Fighter? You start at Lev. 10, so you should be able to do it right off the bat.

Here's what I found to be a pretty effective party... it's the one I'm currently working with...

1 Dwarf Beserker (great saving throws, 19 CON for great HP, beserk rage for those boss characters - specialized in axes - it's D&D cannon ya know... +, there are some great axes out there (Azuredge, the FrostReaver, StoneFire, and more)
1 Fighter (lvl 11) dualled in Cleric ( I got sick of having to pay for restoration, and with the Ring of Regen and all thehealing potions, you really don't need a Cleric - all proficiencies in the two weapon slot, 1 in maces, 1 in flails, 1 in warhammers... I cant wait for Crom Fayer and the Flail of the Ages +5)
1 Fighter (LvL 7) Dualled into a thief right from the start (Proficient in the Long Bow, Short Bow, CrossBow) -> great for traps and great with a bow
1 Fighter (LvL 9) Dualled into a Mage (Grand Master with XBow - combined with the Light Crossbow of speed... ohhlalala, combined with mage spells - deadly, proficient in 2 handed swords)
A Second fighter (LVL 10) Dualled into a Mage (Grand Master of the LongBow - and mage spells.... booyah ohllaa, proficient in Long Swords and Halberds)
Main Character = Sorceror

I've found that my dualled fighter mages are great with the bow, and they are currently only 1 level behind my Sorceror. If I did it again, I'd have 3 fighters dualled into mages.

I've found you really only need 1 tank if you have three mages and a cleric - and since I have, effectively, 5 fighters, they can all take turns at the front when the beserker needs to heal/drink potions.

The Cleric, well, she's more in the party as a matter of conviencence then necessary... like I said, I got sick of paying to restore levels drained.

Why you choose to have only dualed Char!
i don't understand , i am agree with.uhh...i forget his name lol who said that you need a Pure Caster like a Sorcerer!
And why dont you get a Skald? at lvl14 you have great sing that immune yar party against Fear, stun, hold and confusion.
I think that is not necessary to have 5 fighter dualed , why dont have Pure class, a fighter mage dont have Lvl8 spell even if h is at his higher lvl in BG2.
So meditate this words.
Have agood day all , and long life to Baldur's Gate.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SixOfSpades:

"Hey, Cletus, how can we make the Druid a really sucky class to be?"
"Gee, that's a thinker, Bubba. Uh, hey, how 'bout we make it so you can only advance to Level 14, and then you can't Dual to anything."
"Yeah, there you go! You'll be Prez-ee-dent in no time."

<hr></blockquote>
LOL [img]graemlins/thewave.gif[/img]

Use a kensai dualled to a mage later on.

Welcome aboard Six. I expected to hear from you sooner. I was all excited about my dwarf having regeneration too; but, early on you can get something that does it better. The other stats like wisdom + dex are far more beneficial in BG2. That ligitimate 21 wisdom and 20 dex REALLY come in handy. I also found that Ioun stone; but, it wasn't on a squirrel. I found BG2 more challenging and enjoyable. The struggle just to survive in BG1 is great; but, I like having more complex powers. Yea, my dwarves get short changed in BG2. Fighter/Cleric is about it. You're better off dualing fighter to cleric for more hp's and five +'s in your item of choice. You might think about starting off BG2 with a half orc beserker as your tank. Lots of diversity. Enjoy!

Hi again, Telchar. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'm not really meant to be on the BG2 forum yet; I'm only here because I like to get an idea of what's coming up on the horizon--while doing my best to dodge spoilers, of course. Yeah, regeneration is really great in BG1; If your Tank is about to keel over and die, just take the party to another map screen, or set up the tent for a quick snooze. But, as you say the Ring of Regeneration* shows up early on in the game, you're right, I don't need my Dwarf at all. I agree about the DEX and WIS--IMHO, Dexterity is THE most important stat for everyone. Only the Elven Mage/Thief is gonna have 20 DEX; but 2 others have 19 and the rest have 18. :D And my Paladin's gonna have 20 WIS, while the Cleric & Druid each have 21. :D
Barb, you suggested a Kensai->Mage? That's exactly what I was planning for the Fighter->Mage I'm adding to the party.....now I just need to find out exactly what a Kensai is.

Here's the party I've got now: (I rolled them all last night)
Paladin
Fighter->Mage
Fighter->Cleric
Druid->Fighter
Thief->Fighter
Elven Mage/Thief

My primary concern is the Druid. Aelia says the manual states that Druids cannot Dual; then again, the manual HAS been wrong before. In BG1 (I have ToSC, if that matters), I was able to make a True Neutral Fighter with the appropriate stats and Dual-Class to Druid, and also a Druid with the appropriate stats and Dual to Fighter. (Fighter was the only option, though--wouldn't a Druid/Mage be sweet?) What I'm curious about is if BG2 or ToB will ALSO allow you to Dual a Druid to Fighter.

Oh, and Telchar: One more benefit of building a Fighter->Cleric (apart from the better HP, THAC0, and weapon specialization) is that you're not restricted to a Sling while you're in Fighter mode. Any Missile weapon is fine, so my Fighter with Missile+++ is perfectly happy with a Crossbow. :D


*(About me & spoilers: I like knowing WHAT the new items are, just not WHERE they are. Although I would like to know if I can get them before I'm 3/4 of the way through the game.)

My apologies to anyone who read this whole dang thing.

If you want hit points, there's nothing better than a dwarf berserker for a tank. The rage ability is nice too. You wouldn't be limited to axes, of course, but if you did stick with them, there are plenty of good ones out there (I think someone already mentioned that). So, in my opinion, go with the dwarf (not that i'm partial or anything).

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SixOfSpades:

My primary concern is the Druid. Aelia says the manual states that Druids cannot Dual; then again, the manual HAS been wrong before. In BG1 (I have ToSC, if that matters), I was able to make a True Neutral Fighter with the appropriate stats and Dual-Class to Druid, and also a Druid with the appropriate stats and Dual to Fighter. (Fighter was the only option, though--wouldn't a Druid/Mage be sweet?) What I'm curious about is if BG2 or ToB will ALSO allow you to Dual a Druid to Fighter.

<hr></blockquote>

And if Aelia says so , it must be true! Just for you, I rolled up a human druid (and had to sit through the boring intro movie I might add ;) ), stats 18 charisma (druid prime requisite) and 18 strength (fighter prime requisite) and low and behold, no dual class option in BGII :( You should really listen to me, I know all ;) :D

I was planing on dualing a druid as well. Summoning greater fire elementals early on is pretty cool. I like totemic druids for the spiritual animal sumoning 3+ times a day. Please correct me if I'm wrong; but, when I fought the mind flayers in the sewers, my spirit animals were imune to thier attacks. Awsome low level fodder. The greater elementals are highly resistant as well. If not, I've got the staff of fire to bonk 'em with.

Poopie! This do I swear by the almighty god Poopie! (Well, if I can't Dual, can I at least choose the kit Priest of Poopie? It's fertilizer, it fits in well with the Druid ethos.)

Oh, I'm perfectly happy to accept that you know everything about BG2; [img]smile.gif[/img] After all, I'm the same way with BG1. I do, however, have two last questions to ask to save my Druid from tumbling screaming into the Recycle Bin: What was your Druid's Wisdom? (When I did it, I didn't bother rolling, I just summoned up Gatekeeper to have all 18's.) Also, do you have ToB? It won't be such a pain not being able to Dual with BG2 if ToB DOES allow it.

I suppose I could just sneak the Dual in at the very end of BG1; There probably isn't a whole lot of difference between a Druid Dualed to Fighter at Level 10 and one Dualed at Level 14. It's still irksome, though. What the hell was BioWare thinking? (Refer to my previous dialogue between Cletus and Bubba.)

How difficult would it be to use Shadowkeeper to make this character, and would it really be unfair?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SixOfSpades:
Poopie! This do I swear by the almighty god Poopie! (Well, if I can't Dual, can I at least choose the kit Priest of Poopie? It's fertilizer, it fits in well with the Druid ethos.)

Oh, I'm perfectly happy to accept that you know everything about BG2; [img]smile.gif[/img] After all, I'm the same way with BG1. I do, however, have two last questions to ask to save my Druid from tumbling screaming into the Recycle Bin: What was your Druid's Wisdom? (When I did it, I didn't bother rolling, I just summoned up Gatekeeper to have all 18's.) Also, do you have ToB? It won't be such a pain not being able to Dual with BG2 if ToB DOES allow it.

I suppose I could just sneak the Dual in at the very end of BG1; There probably isn't a whole lot of difference between a Druid Dualed to Fighter at Level 10 and one Dualed at Level 14. It's still irksome, though. What the hell was BioWare thinking? (Refer to my previous dialogue between Cletus and Bubba.)

How difficult would it be to use Shadowkeeper to make this character, and would it really be unfair?<hr></blockquote>

Uh wisdom... I don't know, about 15. I just concentrated on the prime stats to see if it was possible to dual. And I do have ToB sadly; I think your druid has been shunned by the evil Poopie [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I know nothing about shadow keeper, but it probably wouldn't be any harder than anything else ( [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] ). Unfair? Will it increase your game enjoyment to have a druid dualled to a fighter? That's all you really have to think about cheating-wise - it's just a game, and if it's not as fun for you not to cheat then cheat!

Hmmm.....'about' 15? Because even though 15 CHA is the minimum when rolling a Druid, I definitely wouldn't consider CHA to be their primary requisite. So if your Druid's WIS was really 15, then Druids ain't worth poopie unless you cheat in order to allow the Dual. But if you're not sure the WIS was at least 15, Aelia, I'm afraid Telchar and I are going to have to ask you to do it again :( with all 18's this time, just to make SURE it's impossible.

Because I hate Multiclassed Fighters, that's why.

I think it's time for a new sig.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SixOfSpades:
Hmmm.....'about' 15? Because even though 15 CHA is the minimum when rolling a Druid, I definitely wouldn't consider CHA to be their primary requisite. So if your Druid's WIS was really 15, then Druids ain't worth poopie unless you cheat in order to allow the Dual. But if you're not sure the WIS was at least 15, Aelia, I'm afraid Telchar and I are going to have to ask you to do it again :( with all 18's this time, just to make SURE it's impossible.

Because I hate Multiclassed Fighters, that's why.

I think it's time for a new sig.<hr></blockquote>

Bah! You're lucky I have a lot of free time, and am so benevolent [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But... you are in luck. Although the manual states druids cannot dual class - they can! Happy, joy! [img]graemlins/dance.gif[/img] Mustn't have been 15 after all ;) God this game is annoying. Why would it say charisma is important to the druid if it is not their prime requisite, not to mention why is the manual wrong? Bah! By the way, I don't know why you couldn't do this yourself [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] Perhaps your sig could read "Poopie-head and delegator of menial tasks"

Druids can Dual? This opens new possibilities... oh, a minor correction, a dualclassed Fighter->Cleric cannot use Shortbows/Longbows/Crossbows and Edge weapons. Anomen demostrates this.

Yee Ha! Now I'm glad I was so pushy. :D I thank you! Telchar thanks you! I'll bet Dundee Slaytern thanks you, too!

I couldn't test it myself, Aelia, because I don't have BG2 yet. I'm just a humble, though very meticulous (read: anal) BG1 player who's seeing just how much planning ahead he can cram into one party. And it's because I'm in BG1 that my Fighter->Cleric can use a Crossbow, Dundee: Until he begins to Dual to a Cleric, he can pick up any dang weapon he pleases. And BG1 doesn't care if he's using a Sling or a Crossbow--as long as it's a Missile-type weapon and the guy has 3 weapon stars in Missile, the THAC0 is the same. I'll bet it's different in BG2, though; you put points into Sling instead of Missile.

Thanks again, Aelia, and a tiny, squeaking 'thank you' from my little Druid, saved from the Recycle Bin. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh, P.S.: This makes 3 times that I know of that the manual or the game itself has been wrong. The 1st was when it said Rangers can't Dual (Ranger/Cleric is a valid class, both for Dual and Multi), and the 2nd is when you're building a Thief and assigning points. The description of the Find Traps ability is as follows:
"A Thief uses this ability to find small traps, pit traps, and alarms. This ability does not find large mechanical traps."
And here's what it says for Open Locks:
"A Thief uses this ability to pick pad locks, door locks and combination locks. He also uses it to disable traps."

Thus misleading me into thinking (for a good long time, too) that locating the trap depended on the Find Traps score, but actually disarming it depended on the Locks score.


And NOW you know everything, Aelia. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SixOfSpades:

Thanks again, Aelia, and a tiny, squeaking 'thank you' from my little Druid, saved from the Recycle Bin. [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

It was my pleasure! Well, actually it wasn't, I really hate that Irenicus opening bit [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] And sitting through it twice!! But I'm pleased your gaming experience won't be ruined [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SixOfSpades:
And it's because I'm in BG1 that my Fighter->Cleric can use a Crossbow, Dundee: Until he begins to Dual to a Cleric, he can pick up any dang weapon he pleases. And BG1 doesn't care if he's using a Sling or a Crossbow--as long as it's a Missile-type weapon and the guy has 3 weapon stars in Missile, the THAC0 is the same. I'll bet it's different in BG2, though; you put points into Sling instead of Missile.<hr></blockquote>

Well sadly, that is correct, because in BG2, the missile weapons split into different categories, so you cannot hoodwink the code anymore and try to equip what is restricted. I tried making a Fighter->Cleric use Longbows before, no dice, and I assume it will apply to Crossbows as well.