When I first saw what a monk was I thought it was a waste. Why am I scowering Amn looking for cool weapons when this guy can't even really use any of them. Forget that. Then one game when i got minsc i shadowkeeped him into a monk. now hes at about level 20 right now and hes kicking the buttocks of evil all over the place. his savings throws are so low hes nearly immune to everything, and his fists are considered as +(something ridiculous)weapons, and his aromor class is like -8 or something. Basically he rocks. Go fighting monks!! long live the bald headed ones!!

Yes Monks are a very powerful class, the whole 100% magic resistance come ToB is excellent as well

I thought monks had the little pony tail thingies...

monks suck...

I personally executed 20 of them

chaincontingency-three lower resistances. spell trigger, greater malasion, spook, slow. then grease (great spell)= a monk that is a sitting duck. follow it by timestop, energy-blades, and a couple flame-arrows, and the monk is chop-suey, (in my humble opinion of course) just from personal experiences. heh heh

oh yeah, thats just to say that all of that GOES through. monks are fairly nifty however, its just that i have JUST now aquired an extreme fondness for the all-powerfull sorceror.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant:
chaincontingency-three lower resistances. spell trigger, greater malasion, spook, slow. then grease (great spell)= a monk that is a sitting duck. follow it by timestop, energy-blades, and a couple flame-arrows, and the monk is chop-suey, (in my humble opinion of course) just from personal experiences. heh heh<hr></blockquote>

yeah rukt, what are you fighting? you are fighting moron

a monk can chope a sorc easily, in fact, all magic users die like flies in BGII

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant:
chaincontingency-three lower resistances. spell trigger, greater malasion, spook, slow. then grease (great spell)= a monk that is a sitting duck. follow it by timestop, energy-blades, and a couple flame-arrows, and the monk is chop-suey, (in my humble opinion of course) just from personal experiences. heh heh<hr></blockquote>

You're forgetting that monks have a pretty high MR...
All of that won't go through. and then you'd have to start casting new spells, and then..YOU'LL be chop suey! ;)

a spell trigger X 3 lower resis is 105+
how high is monk's MR? huh?

that is not the problem, magic is simply too weak in BGII

Assuming NO Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power.

Assuming Monk is level 40, and Mage/Sorcerer is level 31( 8,000,000 Xp).

Contingency: Stoneskin cast on self when enemy sighted
Chain Contingency: Protection from Magical Weapons, Mislead and True Sight cast on self when enemy sighted

Cast Time-Stop when fight starts, Monk cannot hit the Sorcerer to disrupt spellcasting, since he is protected by Stoneskin and PfMW( Contingencies will trigger).

During Time-Stop, cast Imprisonment on Monk. ;)

If Monk used Protection from Magic scroll, then just stay invisible for 10 turns( 10 minutes), just remember to recast PfMW when the time runs out.

Monk cannot go invisible, True Sight takes care of that.

Mind you, I do like the Monk class, but I just had to chip in when people starting saying Monks are more powerful than Sorcerers. ;)

mind you, you are assuming you CAN cast time stop
if you fight me, you wont have a chance

er tofiffie
so complaining about magik
it's powerful enough
the problem with a lot of Fighters in BG2
is when they play mages they are unprepared because they don;t know what to do
Once you know that you can kick ass
no matter what class you are
just get use to it first

hide in shadows plus Cloak of Non-Detection... you can't fight (cast spells on) what you can't see... or potion of invisibility/ring of (improved) invisibility/ring of gaxx's invisibility; there's plenty of ways for non-spellcasters to turn invisible [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by frudi_x:
hide in shadows plus Cloak of Non-Detection... you can't fight (cast spells on) what you can't see... or potion of invisibility/ring of (improved) invisibility/ring of gaxx's invisibility; there's plenty of ways for non-spellcasters to turn invisible [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

Hiding under a bed is one of them [img]smile.gif[/img]
but what you say is true
but spellcaster still have area effect and the strongest spells are area effective (Abi Dalzim horrit wilting, Metoer, delayed fireball)
though to does prefent finger of death and disintergration (a spell which i personbally hate)

area of effect spells? monk at lvl 40 and proper equipment has > 100% magic resistance. you first need to lower that before you can hope to harm him with magic. but that means hitting him with a Lower Resistance, something you can't do with an invisible enemy [img]smile.gif[/img]

and I don't think there's anything cowardly about hiding from the spellcaster while his protections run out. what could than be said about using Time Stop? or PfMW? same thing...

I can handle that, gate in a Planetar.

Devas and Planetars share the same ability as Liches and Kuo-Tuo, they can see invisible units. If you attack the Planetar, *poof* there goes your invisibility. ;)

dude, you guys

IF BGII is designed for PvP

there will be only two best strategies for mages at the end

one is:
maze + muti-delayed fireballs

and:
chaos sphere

you see, chaos sphere kills you NO MATTER WHAT MAGIC RESISTANCE YOU HAVE

however, in PvP, chaos sphere doesnt work on teammate, so we cancle that one out

that left maze + muti area spells (that is the only one works, maze costs no time to cast)

all the other strategies are bullshit

because if you cast time stop, it takes around 3 seconds to complete (with Robe of Vecna) the monk can put a scroll of magic protection on YOUR mage at the mean while, this scroll disables all your spell casting ability and all protection

also, even if you have stoneskin or mirror image, the spell casting can still be interrupted (easily) switch on flail of agies or just better yet, use stunning blow, it directly go through

so the only way is to use Pro Against magical weapons of all type (this can still be defeated, but I am not gonna go over here) the easiest way out is still magic protection scroll. removes all your protections and make you unable to cast any spells, dead sorc/mage

sorc/mage really sucks in this BGII

now lets say if we can defeat sorc/mage without scroll of magic protection

easily, everyone can have at least 60% magic resis (with item), and a godly saving throw, that said, no magic can penatrate

just start attacking, then if the mage put on any protection spells, or use muti lower resis, try hide a bit till the effect is gone, you see, mages have only that many spells, once run out, they are dead, and I am goddamn sure as hell a mage cannot kill a proper built fighter/barb/pally of any kind

I myself am one hella good (mage) dueler, and mages just suck

Dundee, with Improved Invisibility you'd still be unable to target a monk with spells. anyway, you're assuming the monk would actually attack the planetar. why bother, it's not like it can even hit him (too much). I had a monk with -18 AC. and the monk is also a lot faster than a planetar, meaning he can always outrun it.
also, with Greater Whirlwind he can kill the planetar in far less than a round, immediately turning invisible after it and the sorcerer/mage would have to have excelent timing to cast off a Time Stop before the monk is invisible again...

anyways, the monk can play the run-around for the four rounds it takes for PfMW to expire, than attack the spellcaster with a weapon that does elemental damage (that goes through stoneskin). with GW it doesn't matter he's not specialised with it.

now, I'm not saying monks are better than mages or sorcerers. in general I believe a spellcaster can kick serious but out of any warrior type. but I'm just trying to demonstrate that with proper strategy a warrior can outsmart a spellcaster.


edit: lol, I just read what DM of FAoIW wrote in the last post... using a Protection from Magic scroll on the spellcaster, haha. that is such a wonderfully brilliant idea :D :D :D
you're a genius DM of FAoIW ;)

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: frudi_x ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by frudi_x:
Dundee, with Improved Invisibility you'd still be unable to target a monk with spells. anyway, you're assuming the monk would actually attack the planetar. why bother, it's not like it can even hit him (too much). I had a monk with -18 AC. and the monk is also a lot faster than a planetar, meaning he can always outrun it.
also, with Greater Whirlwind he can kill the planetar in far less than a round, immediately turning invisible after it and the sorcerer/mage would have to have excelent timing to cast off a Time Stop before the monk is invisible again...

anyways, the monk can play the run-around for the four rounds it takes for PfMW to expire, than attack the spellcaster with a weapon that does elemental damage (that goes through stoneskin). with GW it doesn't matter he's not specialised with it.

now, I'm not saying monks are better than mages or sorcerers. in general I believe a spellcaster can kick serious but out of any warrior type. but I'm just trying to demonstrate that with proper strategy a warrior can outsmart a spellcaster.


edit: lol, I just read what DM of FAoIW wrote in the last post... using a Protection from Magic scroll on the spellcaster, haha. that is such a wonderfully brilliant idea :D :D :D
you're a genius DM of FAoIW ;)

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: frudi_x ]<hr></blockquote>

thank you, actually, this is discovered by my friend. (he and me started dueling each other back in IWD)

anywayz, in mplayer dueling, this scroll is forbidden

anyway, just let you all know for fairness' sake, the rules on mplayer were:

Legit Dueling:
1 No scroll of magic protection
2 One level nine spell each duel
3 Characters must be rolled
4 Characters must only go through the game once (this is too easy to abuse)
5 You can have five SAME items of any kind (eg: 5 extra healing potions, 5 scroll of Protection from Magical Weapon...)
6 No wand of ressurection (this thing full heals)
7 Staff of Magis is strongly advised to NOT use (a distasteful item which can make the duel go sour)
8 No Wand of Wonder (instant kill, no skill)
9 No pause
10 No preparation

this is just mplayer's traditional rules before ToB came out, and ofc, there are duels "Allow-Everything" which... can get quit nasty some times

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: DM of FAoIW ]</p>

I have Mislead in my Chain Contingency precisely to avoid contact with direct melee combat, this will disable your ability to use the scroll of Protection from Magic on the Sorcerer/Mage, and last I recall, Monks cannot cast Improved Invisibility( Thieves can though because of Use any Item). Unless you can get rid of the Mislead, your GWs are useless.

The Monk may still be able to overcome the Sorcerer/Mage under the SoA Xp Cap, but the Sorcerer/Mage will definitely be stronger than the Monk under the ToB Xp Cap.

Even if you have 100% Magic Resistance, that is what the Spell Trigger is for. Even if you choose to go invisible, so can a Sorcerer/Mage, but at least they can call upon a Planeter to help dispel the Warrior's invisibility, and that is your cue to fire a Spell Trigger filled with 3 Lower Resistances.

Cue multiple casting of Skull Traps, Fireballs, ADHWs, Greater Malison, Emotion, etc... ...

It is all about the tactics. ;)

This is not to say a Sorcerer/Mage is invulnerable, I know of one kit which can screw a Sorcerer/Mage badly, and no, it is not the Wizard Slayer, think Keldorn. ;)

[ADD]
I am surprised nobody brought up the Inquisitor up till now though, I wanted to mention it before I went for dinner outside, but I was in a rush and decided to post it later. Heh, heh.
[/ADD]

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]</p>

it is not about tactics

tactics have nothing to do in this case, it is all about the way the game it is

sorc/mage just suck

trust me, the strategies you named have been tested over and over by the best duelers and got beaten EVERY SINGLE TIME, no chance

BTW, how can you disable me from casting Protection from magic?? how?? all I have to do is to disable YOU then you are gone

Edit: just about anyone can beat the 'best' mage/sorc

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: DM of FAoIW ]</p>

I am Misleaded, you cannot target me.

QED.

Dundee...
firs off - I was talking about Ring of Improved Invisibility, not casting it from a scroll
second - even if you use Mislead to prevent using Protection from Magic scroll on you, the monk can still use it on himself. what's a mage to do then?
third - the Mislead will die after about three hits, that means the monk will kill it before you realise what happened, specially if the monk used GW. after that he just gulps down another potion of invisibility and you're left in the dark again. after that YOU CAN target the mage with the scroll, even though the mage is under Improved Invisibility.
fourth - if we're talking about dueling, then a planetar isn't going to help you find an invisible monk, since the monk isn't the enemy [img]smile.gif[/img]


I was gonna mention the Inquisitor, but then remembered this is supposed to be a monk debate ;) otherwise it would be the obvious choice to go up against any spellcaster. double-level Dispel Magic, True Sight and Carsomyr are more than any mage can handle [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: frudi_x ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by frudi_x:
Dundee...
firs off - I was talking about Ring of Improved Invisibility, not casting it from a scroll

<font color="teal">Fair enough, note though that I can still cast Dispel/Remove Magic. Worse to worst, I use Chain Contingency to hit you instead, with 3 Lower Resistances( can target IV targets, provided they reveal themselves).</font>

second - even if you use Mislead to prevent using Protection from Magic scroll on you, the monk can still use it on himself. what's a mage to do then?

<font color="teal">I covered this in my first post.</font>
<font color="white">If Monk used Protection from Magic scroll, then just stay invisible for 10 turns( 10 minutes), just remember to recast PfMW when the time runs out.</font>

third - the Mislead will die after about three hits, that means the monk will kill it before you realise what happened, specially if the monk used GW. after that he just gulps down another potion of invisibility and you're left in the dark again. after that YOU CAN target the mage with the scroll, even though the mage is under Improved Invisibility.

<font color="teal">How do you target me? When I cast Mislead, I gain invisibility, the death of the illusion will not remove the invisibility until I make a hostile move. Note also that I can drink a Potion of Invisibility too anyway. Which is why such potions tend to make the fight into a stalemate.</font>

fourth - if we're talking about dueling, then a planetar isn't going to help you find an invisible monk, since the monk isn't the enemy [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="teal">The game is flawed when it comes to PvP, because party members cannot be hostile, but if they can, rest assured that the Planetar can target the Monk. You cannot say the Planetar cannot target the Monk, because that is the limitation of the game, I am working under the assumption that the Monk is hostile.</font>

I was gonna mention the Inquisitor, but then remembered this is supposed to be a monk debate ;) otherwise it would be the obvious choice to go up against any spellcaster. double-level Dispel Magic, True Sight and Carsomyr are more than any mage can handle [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="teal">Ay, the Inquisitor would be a pain in the a** for any Sorcerer/Mage. When DM of FAoIW started mentioning Barbs/Fighters/Paladins, I started to cover more ground and assumed that they were in the equation as well now.</font><hr></blockquote>

Once again, a disclaimer. ;)

By no means are Sorcerers/Mages the end-all, be-all class when it comes to power, but frankly, IMHO, a Sorcerer/Mage has a better chance to defeat an Inquisitor than a Monk against a Sorcerer/Mage.

whoa whoa whoa settle down people this thread wasn't intended to be a high level sorcerer vs. high level monk chat. i was just throwing out my appreciation to what i thought was, before i tried it, a pretty worthless class. I was just pleasantly surprised at how awesome the monk class ended up being, nothing against sorcerers, mages, jesters, mimes (well maybe not mimes, I hate those buggers) but you get the idea. Well all know every class has certain advantages, and what would be the fun of the game if they didnt? I'm not going to say any class is better than any other, it just depends on what you think you'll have the most fun playing at the time, be it a wild mage or a jester, or a berseker half orc with a charisma of 5 that lives in the local taverns drinking and hitting on women of ill repute, as long as you have fun with it doesnt matter what class you pick. we need to get back to the fundamentals of RPGs, and thats just having a good time [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] ;) :D

Ay, I agree Monks are a good class.

Anybody passionate about the Beastmaster though? ;)

yeah, you bet I cannot target you

there are loads of cantrips out there to TARGET an invisible character

Details please?

just cast and click on your picture

also, mislead, you do realize that the fake character cannot cast any magic. and any copy-self's image is significantly weaker than original charatcer.

if you want to do any real dmg, that has to come from yourself (which breaks invisibility)

ring of air control cast improved invisibility on self. monks can use it and you can buy infinite number of ring of air control

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by DM of FAoIW:
just cast and click on your picture

Once again, you are exploiting a flaw in the game. Kindly please assume that we are encountering each other as hostile opponents, not in a party.

also, mislead, you do realize that the fake character cannot cast any magic. and any copy-self's image is significantly weaker than original charatcer.

My gawd man, ;) are you sure you have been using Mages/Sorcerers? You can still cast selected spells under the influence of invisibility, the invisibility will not dispel so long as the spell being casted is not hostile, Time-Stop included. I'm casting Mislead for protection, not for extra firepower.

if you want to do any real dmg, that has to come from yourself (which breaks invisibility)

See above.

ring of air control cast improved invisibility on self. monks can use it and you can buy infinite number of ring of air control

You know what? A Sorcerer/Mage can use this ring too, then we both can't do anything except run in circles and taunt each other until we both die of boredom and the rest of the gaming world starts playing NWN. ;)

Although the Mage/Sorcerer does have one advantage, Dispel/Remove Magic.<hr></blockquote>

dispel sucks too, cannot dispel anything

and am I really exploiting? I tell you what, this is BGII, if you want real PvP game, then ask them to design it for you.

in fact, should they design PvP, I can still find ways to take out your sorc

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: DM of FAoIW ]</p>

Monks are good, but sorcerors are much better. Take Absolute Immunity for example. How can a monk deal with that?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by DM of FAoIW:
dispel sucks too, cannot dispel anything

I wouldn't call Dispel/Remove Magic sucky, but I wouldn't call it excellent either( except for Inquisitors). The thing is however, at least I can try to dispel a Monk's invisibility( 50% chance), a Monk has no active way to dispel a Sorcerer's invisibility however.

and am I really exploiting? I tell you what, this is BGII, if you want real PvP game, then ask them to design it for you.

It's called Neverwinter Nights. ;)

in fact, should they design PvP, I can still find ways to take out your sorc

We shall see. ;) <hr></blockquote>

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Seid:
Monks are good, but sorcerors are much better. Take Absolute Immunity for example. How can a monk deal with that?<hr></blockquote>

A Monk can take a +5 or better weapon and whack you with you, that is why I chose to use Protection from Magical Weapons and Stoneskin instead.

See! I'm not totally biase! Really! ;)

you know why i truly love the monk class?
slight spoiler
**
**
**
in the underdark instead of working with the drow i decided the wipe the city from the bowels of the earth, and kill every drow there, which really wasn't much of a challenge. Even the 5 or 6 stone golems in the dragons eggs chamber wasn't a big deal. then after doing that i decided i need to go clean out that beholder den as well. now instead of taking my whole party through there and working together to take out all those beholders, sometimes coming at you 3 at a time with 3 gauths as well; i decided to just take minsc. now minsc was changed to a monk when i got him using shadowkeeper, as i mentioned on this thread before. minsc was about a 20th level monk at the time. so i took him and cleaned out the entire den, i know he personally killed at least 9 beholders, countless gauths, and at least 3 mindflayers, all without resting once, or using any healing ability or spell except for the ring of regeneration, consequently he only ended up losing 1/2 his power when he was done. i dont know if he had any yet, but i didnt use any high level special abilities that you get with TOB, though those can be really really helpful. now i didnt keep trying this until i got it, this was spontaneous and on the first time. minsc just brawled his way through there. now this may not makes sense to everyone, but thats one of the main reasons i like the monk class.

once again this is not a thread to pit monks against sorcerors, both classes are extremely good in their own ways. Just remember, BG1 and BG2 are both about role-playing, which happens to include dungeon crawling.. Those rigorous and annoying times while you're plunging ahead all day, with no where to rest, for fear of being stabbed in the night. (you can rest, i know.. but sometimes it's hard) The sorceror would eventually run out of spells, the monk isn't going to run out of fists... Truth be told, both classes are good in their own way and it's unfair to pit them one against the other.

PS. How good are Planetars in comparison to Pit Fiends and the slayer?

Hmmmm... what would be a Monk's dream equipment? I'm basing this on memory and SoA only, so point out if there better alternatives.

Armour: NIL
Gloves: Gauntlets of Crushing
Helmet: Pale Green Ioun Stone
Amulet: Kaligun's Amulet of Magic Resistance
Rings: Ring of Gaxx, Ring of Protection +2
Cloak: Cloak of the Sewers( your MR will protect you)
Boots: Boots of Speed
Belt: Girdle of Stone Giant Strength

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Synthos:
PS. How good are Planetars in comparison to Pit Fiends and the slayer?<hr></blockquote>

They eat Pit Fiends, no seriously, Planetars kick their butts. One on one, I believe they can defeat a Slayer-type demon too, not your Slayer though, or Jon Irenicus's Slayer.

For throne of bhaal
Armour: NIL
Gloves: Gauntlets of Crushing
Helmet: wong fei's ioun stone
Rings: Ring of Gaxx, Ring of Protection +2
Cloak: Cloak of the Sewers
Boots: Boots of Speed
Belt: Girdle of Fire Giant Strength

thats about all the better equipment for monks Ithink of the top of my head.