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Look I know I have gone raving on about how good my fighter is, but I just started TOB (got it today) and realised, a 40 level mage...hmmmm impossible to kill? Most definetely! If used right I think the mage can be the most phenomenal class in the game, not WILD MAGES, they are poo IMHO.
I'm annoyed I will lose all my equipment from BG2 but I think its worth it to start with a mage! |
Well, in ToB mages can only reach 32nd level - but this sort of expansion talk doesn't belong here.
In my opinion mages have always and will always be the best class. In PnP I always play mages, or characters that at least have some magical abilities. In the BG series my PC is almost always a magic user in some ways, and when he/she's not I have plenty of NPC mages around to play with. An intelligent and cunning mage can make him/herself virtually immune to everything, and have spells to combat any opponent or situation. Some people are quick to say that one such as a Monk, let's say, who has high magic resistance could crush a mage, but a monk against my mage would stand no chance: Protection from Magical Weapons would be cast first, then Dimension Door somewhere, then Lower Resistance that punk and have my way with him until I grow bored (confusing him, slowing him, lowering his intelligence to 3, poisoning him, really brutal stuff,) and blast through his chest with a lightning bolt. Mages are the best. ------------------ trux |
<font color="white">I like the spells in ToB that allows a Mage to become a Fighter, whenever that may be needed.
Also that sword spell that you automatically have grand-mastery in. I used that alot with Imoen, when I used up all other spells that were worth using in a fight, I didn't have much choice but to jump in there with her and cut up some baddies! </font> ------------------ http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprinc...ges/larry2.gif Devoted member of the Ironworks Loyal guardian of the OHF Member of the Ancients' club Witness of the 4,000th post by Cloudposter Currently engaged in the Trials of the Luremaster downloadable expansion set [This message has been edited by Larry_OHF (edited 07-25-2001).] |
yeah, Tenser's Transformation is the name of the fighter spell you're talking about Larry - it's great. Have a mage with the Rynn Staff or the Staff of the Magi cast that when they're high level and they're melee machines.
Also, Aerie with the Crom Faeyr casting this spell, with a Stoneskin and Blur on, can be invincible in melee. ------------------ trux |
Trux, at high levels Monks gain protection from poison, slow and magical resistance up to 78%. Mages will be no match for a high level Monk.
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Untrue, Seid. Slow and poison attacks are the most basic, low-level attacks a mage can use, and any powerful mage wouldn't even bother with such trifle spells.
And magic resistance? A monk's magic resistance can be lowered to nothing with two castings of Lower Resistance. So now the monk has no magic resistance, and no other defense from a mage's spells. What can he/she do? Well, he can try to punch the mage. The mage of course will have cast Protection from Magical Weapons on himself, so the flacid fists of the monk will deal him no harm. Then the mage is free to act out his whimsy on the unprotected monk. What's the monk gonnna do, beat the mage about the head with a stick? This is nothing against monks, I love playing monks. They are no challenge, however, for a powerful mage. Mages are the ultimate in power. ------------------ trux |
I agree with the superiority of the mages, but i regard the tenser transformation a poor choice, because no high level wizard can match a high level warrior in a melee.
Blasting the fighters from afar with 10th level spells is far more funny to me. |
I agree...a high level monk cant hold a candle to a powerful mage. All you have to do is hit him with a spell sequensor or some such that has 3 lower resistances and he is open, or time stop and have your way with them...there are so many ways to crack a monk. They have nothing on mages. And so long as that mage has a imp. mantle or protection from magical weapons contingency, they are virtually IMMUNE to the monk without even having to spend time casting anything. Monks may be powergamer tools, and they may be good, but against a player who knows how to play a mage, and has some decent spells in their spell book, virtually any other class is toast. Mages are also the most interesting to play...I always play a mage in pnp and computer games
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You may say that Mages are the best classes, but the thing that balances them out is that they suck when they are first starting out. A level 1 or 2 Mage would have his ass whooped by a level 1 or 2 Fighter.
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I prefer the Sorcerer but thats me, Mages are great and have a lot more variety. Playing fighters can be so dull.
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Very true, Nanobyte. That's the trade-off.
That's why only the most intelligent, creative, patient and cunning mages ascend. And even then their survival is more thanks to luck than skill for the first years of their adventuring days. This is also why you'll NEVER see a low-level mage adventuring alone - always gotta be at least one fighter with him/her. It's always been a good rule of thumb in any PnP adventure I DM that if you see a lone mage travelling he/she's best left alone - lest your life be taken by him. (P.S. what does "rule of thumb" mean, anyway?) ------------------ trux |
Well there was once this bloke named "Thumb".....http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif
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Eh eh eh, I've been stuck sleeping in that tavern for a few days now. It's "THE Thumb". http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif
Ah, and on the mages. I've had bad expiriances with magic users. Trust me... Don't make me tell you the story. Why they started calling my mage Toast Like Bread... Nope, not tellin' ya... (OK so mages could kick ass later on, but look at it this way, without an accomplished cleric or a healthy supply of temples how many of these mages would make it?) |
rule of thumb, style of measurement way back when (a thumb was roughly two inches long). Also I though that the game was about balance, the whole mage v's every other class seems pointless in the extreme, I mean scroll of magic protection and what will your mage do then etc. The game is about balance, no one class can be too powerful, or two weak, each has strengths and weaknesses, or else how would you ever finish it, accept if you went as a mage. Soloplayers don'r choose mages, 'cos even at the higher levels, survival is terribly difficult with a mage, example, tough battle, you use all your magic, you try to rest, you get attacked and killed by a horde of maurading rabbits or something. In a one of battle mages are well hard, especially at later levels (not invincible mind) but only thinking in one off terms is not enough, overall as a continuing character, mages are weak and prey to a host of attacks. Mages are no better or worse than any other class of character.
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SOLUTION: Multi-Class!! It's like playing two (or three) seperate characters all in one! Sure they level up slow, but it's DEFINATELY worth it. I have played MANY of the classes and my favorite by far is an Elven Mage/Thief. Use up all your spells? Set up a bunch of traps in a circle. Stand within the circle and hide. Now try to rest. If you get attacked, the traps do their work. Some monsters immune to trap damage? Then you must not have Throne of Bhaal. Want a mage that could defeat a fighter in single combat? Fighter/Mage. Want a mage that can kill a lich without casting a single spell? Mage/Thief. Want a mage that can heal himself/herself or others? Cleric/Mage. The only multi-class mage I found difficult to use (but sometimes wish I would've tried just a little longer) is the Fighter/Thief/Mage. They level up EXTREMELY slow. So slow, it's really hard to do anything early on AND you almost can't reach your experience cap.
------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memn...ges/drizzt.gif Let's get'em guen! Quote:
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Oh God! Not this debate again - YAWN!!!! It all comes down to style of play, and that's that
------------------ In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is pimp. http://lordraptor0.tripod.com/index.html http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif |
S'right (btw, what the hells is that ugly picture, and I don't mean the chicken).
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If you mean the egyptian thing on my left, those are Ziroc's pictures depending on your post rankings
------------------ In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is pimp. http://lordraptor0.tripod.com/index.html http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif |
Rule of Thumb...
If you want to see a HILARIOUS explanation of where this came from go out and Rent/Buy the movie- Boondock Saints |
It used to be legal to beat your wife with a stick so long as its not thicker than your thumb. Thats where it came from.
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Well, while we're talking ToB, I tell you that the BEST thing to do is having a spell trigger with protection from evil, mirror image and protection from magical wepon. THEN, after casting that one, you do a fine little Gate http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
------------------ We call him Bobby Corwen http://www.finalfantasy.nu/forum/minichoco.gif |
the one problem with a mage in BG2 is the cloak of mirroring and similar items...they are really unfair I have to say. Enemies keep trying to dispel my spell protections but they cant. It makes enemy mages virtually useless. These items should be able to be breached by the normal magic spells that would breach their protections (ruby ray of reversal etc.) but should then reactivate after a set period of time, say after you rest. Well, at least in ToB they made the cloak stop REFLECTING the magic, it merely stops it...my god that was just too sick...especially with beholders. It was just a masacre.
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Mages are not as good in ToB due to fighters can breakup stoneskin easily with their cool whirlwind attacks. But nevertheless they are the best class(power game) that is!
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Who cares about Protection from magic scrolls??? There are defensive spells to cast on yourself, let some summons out and/or cast some fightingspell (Tensers or Rightous Magic or something like that).
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Tenser's Transformation
Mages RULE!!!!! |
A high level mage will still die bloody quick if a high level thief backstabs him unexpectedly because none of his contingency spells will go off. If there is poison on the weapon it gets messy very quickly.
That is NOT to say the thief is more powerful than the mage however. In BG2 you are right a high level mage is probably 'invincible' against other character classes but the same does not apply with PnP-you have to sleep, you run out of spells, you run out of contingencies, spell triggers, you drink poison etc etc. A high level single mage on his own still cannot handle every situation though he needs support, just try walking him through a thieves guild for example. Assuming he manages to avoid all the traps, he'll be getting constantly backstabbed and poison darted, eventually his protection spells will run out and he's a dead man. (Of course the same applies to the thief stupid enough to try and break into a school of sorcery or the like) Generally you can argue that any character class meeting any other class under favourable circumstances can beat any other but to my mind the class that will do most of the winning-assuming he has his spells of course is the mage. It also comes down to level at high level the mage will win but at lower levels the fighter, cleric or even the thief (backstab remember) is a better bet. Ultimately its all down to how you play-if you play like a fool it does not matter what class you play you'll die-period. |
Wizards are cool, but if they are out of spells...
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Heh the mage being out of spells argument is like the fighter being out of hps argument. I mean to a mage hps are irrelevent right? who cares about your hps. Without your spells you are like a little bunnie rabbit. but to a fighter hps are everything. you need them to go on. so saying a mage will run out of spells eventually is pretty silly IMHO. If your mage is out of spells he has already kicked some butt!
Anyways the mage might not be the do everything class but the stuff mages do they do more impressively than any other class I think. you just can't compete with the insane abilities of simulcrum,contingencies,time stop,project image. Staff of magi is a free invis whenever they want it. Plus a mage can adapt to any situation. there are scrolls or spells to defend yourself against any enemy and there is spells to tear down any warriors protections. As some previous poster mentioned backstab is a nice way to take out a mage quickly although thats assuming the mage doesn't have defensive spells up in the first place... Tensers transformation I like but only on fights where I know what I stand. Otherwise I would rather have my mage spells available to me so that I can adapt to the situation as it unfolds. |
Now this is what makes the mage so groovy. There is a spell for, almost, every encounter and situation. To be able to backstab, a thief must be invisible. Now, is there a spell called...uhm...true..sight...??? =). Anyway, I did go through the thieves guild with a solo mage/cleric (multiclass). Now PnP is not the same as computergames, very true. Since a DM(?) would probably not even allow a mage to get to level 20+, and could always come up with a situation or encounter where the mage would stand no chance. And that would make it difficult, in PnP. In CRPG, of course he will run out of spells in time, if he does not have WISH(!) =) and so can memorize all spells again without sleeping. Damn! I just got the feeling I want to play a highlevel mage solo through BG2!! =)
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A minor point admittedly but the mage has to be expecting an invisible opponent to want to cast true sight. The thief (if he had any sense) will just saunter up behind the mage without warning and knife him. Result dead mage.
But you're right in pnp you don't know what is going to happen next. in BG2 if you've completed the game once you do-it makes a huge difference to your style of play. That is why Neverwinter Nights online is going to be so good.You'll really have to cooperate with each other... I still prefer mages to other classes I'm currently playing a sorceror he's 12th leveland just about to start the Umar Hills quest... |
Personally, I agreee about the Mages being the best class.
A high priest or Grand druid can compete, but that is about it. Personally, I dual-class from a fighter if I can - because then, the mage at low levels has planty of hit points, correcting the largest deficit of mages. In SoA I dual classed my fighter I brought in from winning BG & now have a L11 mage/L9 fighter - with 135 HP & a base THACO of 12. I actually planned to dual-class, but the level limits in BG were so low, after I got SoA I decided to wait. Oh, but I miss my cloak of balduran http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif |
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------------------ We call him Bobby Corwen http://www.finalfantasy.nu/forum/minichoco.gif |
It's do able.
Admittedly its harder with player wizards because a lot of players mx their hit points each level and give their mages 16 con so you have to do at least 70 damage in a single hit. But that is where the poison damage comes in. A high level thief will have a backstab damage modifier of x7 or so, will be using a +3 or +4 weapon at least and will also get his strength damage bonus (if he has 15 or better str) Normal mages at 30/40 level will have about 50 hit points-the thief will only need to get 7 or 8 or better on his damage (including magical damage) to kill the mage outright.(The mage dies about 50 per cent of the time if the thief has a short sword, about 75 per cent of the time if he's using a bastard sword or a long sword. The percentage is higher if the thief has 15 or better strength) I tend to dual class fighter mages so they don't die if they get backstabbed incidently, but there are very few mages in BG2 that cannot be backstabbed to death before their contingencies come online.) |
Assassins is the best class. In my oppinion. Both fun and useful. No mage has yet survived my poisoned little blade (Celestial Fury - Of course!)
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Question: How did all of you solo mages fare in the underdark against the Illithid and Drow? You'd need an awful lot of summoning spells and lower resistances by my reckoning......
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Any Solo Mage is DEAD MEAT, unless he/she has max level and keeps away from all larger groups of enemies and those with magic resistance/damn good saving throws, thieves will backstab, fighters will use magical weapons which will bypass many of the protection spells, mages will remove protection spells, clerics will remove protection and bash with magical maces and flails, druids will use summoning and magical scimitars, monsters will use combinations of these various tactics, but here is the invincible mage: Sorcerer aided by one or two fighters, a thief, a cleric and maybe a psionic, nothing beats it, here is how this little group will defeat Drow and Illithids, while a solo Mage will be dead meat:
Drow: Death Spell, how many Drow have over 8 HD? Not many of those in the Underdark, besides, a Sorcerer would be foolish to enter the Underdark without his Warrior friends. Illithid: My thief friends helped me there, and so did my druid friend with her summoning. |
everyone assumes the that you'll stick around to fight the mage, how often do you do that with a lich? Run away, run away bravely etc. Also what do mages do about traps, knock, yep theres a trap.... hmmm.... well.... hmm.... oh dear...., I dunno this whole argument seems daft...
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backstabing a mage?? no mage with half a brain would walk through potentially hostile invironment without a stoneskin http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif and unlike other protection spells Stoneskin lasts for hours.
there are also the Gargoyle boots that give imunity to backstab... |
I've run several characters but my 9Kensai-23mage is by far the best. Decent fighting abilities with incredible spell potential. Time stop coupled with the Kiai and Soul Reaver absolutely wreak havoc.
I disagree with a lot of posters, though, in that I can't stand Tensers Transformation- you lose a lot of flexibility in casting it. I'd rather have lesser fighting abilities and still be able to cast spells when needed. Just my two copper. |
Thsi si going to turn into another Magic vs Melee deebate isn't it *sigh*, well don't mind me if I watch from afar with knives drawn (or robe sleeves rolled back depending on what you think is more dangerous).
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