I sat down and thought about the alignments, I was comparing them with reality.
I found out a few interesting things.

The Chaotic Good alignment is like anarchism/non-authority-socialism. Believe in the Good forces but don't have any use for laws. (They are a way of preventing a society against changes.)

Lawfull evil is like Fascism or George Bush, (Quite the same thing)

Lawfull good is like the cop in Magnolia. He believes in Goodness but still he trusts the authorites.

And the others, I dont know about them. I want to know what you think...

(My personal ranking

1. Chaotic Good
2. True Neutral
3. Neutral Good
4. Chaotic Neutral
5. Lawfull Good
6. Chaotic Evil
7. Neutral Evil
8. Lawfull Evil
9. Lawfull Neutral

Lethnael check this out re. alignments. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...les/scream.gif
Alignment discussion




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Where were Hamlet and Horatio when I needed them?!
http://www.angelfire.com/weird/dieball/skull.gif
A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

It was more like a battlefield then a discussion Yorick. I want opinions about my chaotic good theory!

I prefer neutral good.
You obey laws when it suits you but basicly you can do what you want.

In terms of the computer game, however, they just restrict your classes, and determine your spell selection/effectiveness. Also, evil clerics temporarily control undead whereas good ones repel/destroy them. My favourite is Neutral Good. You use any method you like to get good done.

Must agree. I pretty well always opt for Neutral Good, though there are some classes where you can't (eg Paladin). But Neutral Good gets on well/reasonably with most other alignments, too, except chaotic evil.
If you want to get on with everyone reasonably well, though, you should go for True Neutral.
F.

True. Although, if your companions are of opposing alignments to each other, there is trouble between them. Try to keep characters of either "Neutral and Good" or "Nautral and evil", never "evil and good"

Interesting... I didn't know there's a 32nd day in December (check the dates on the first few posts). http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif

Heh.

Alignments are just a conceptual idea to stereotype people into different groups. The system is needs more gray areas.

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

I usually choose Neutral good.

True, cause not all evil is 100% evil.

A Evil Knight might Slaughter countless lives and not even blink but he refuses to kill children.

An Neutral Evil Thief, might defend a cause to the death even if there is no money involved.

and not all Good is 100% good

A Chaotic good mage sees a fire raging in the Horison, there is a druid protecting his grove, If the mage burns down the grove it will save 100000 lives but the druid refuses to leave. So the mage renders the Druid Uncontius but the druid reisist. The mage is forced to kill the druid and burns down the grove.

etc etc...

the 2ed Vilains source book (The blue covered one with no pic), shows how to give gray area to all aliments.

I'd like to know why you think that not having a use for laws would prevent society from changing?
I think laws CAN restrict change,but in any case change IS inevitable,and as human beings,to think we can control the outcome is to be blind to forces other than ourselves.
.....But on the matter of good/evil:
A west african society called the 'Fang',Told early missionaries,"We have two hearts,good ,and bad." They felt they could not eradicate evil in the world.This incapacity means they have to celebrate,and so in their society good and bad walk together.
I think being tribal people,who dont rely on intellect as mutch as the western world,they see the huge grey area that we are as human beings,and dont have room for black/white type mental constructs.
-My 2 cents

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"I can carry no more! ,I must drop what you gave me upon the ground."

Most laws would be considered Lawful Neutral, Perfect Juges(by the law) are Juges that are Lawful Neutral. Basic society is Lawful Good, most of us follow the laws and basicly try to do our best to find life, happiness etc etc.

Solgiers fall under Lawful Neutral when in the army, so is the police since then have to follow law and country to the letter.(As civilians there what ever aliment, Lawful good, Neutral Good).

There is rare things as true evil, A serial Killer would fall as Chaotic Evil, A traitor (a cop who accepts a bribe etc) would be Neutral Evil, Lawful Evil would be a coporate Manager(This is just an example, I don't want any evil corporate managers breathing down my neck! LOL) that twist the laws so he have more money, influance. Evil is redimable and not countinus,

Neutral Good falls when you are a good Samaritain: You see a child walk on the freeway, the Law sais your not supposed to walk on the freeway to save the child, But you break the law in the name of the greater good.

Chaotic Good is best described as freedom fighters, They will do what it takes for good to triumph, If Killing a Neutral Evil dictator is the only way, Then by god that dictator will fall... Chaotic Good caracter can easly fall Neutral Evil if they don't watch there actions.

Chaotic Neutral: Are happy go luckly, They don't belive in Law or Good or Evil per say. A Drifter that Muggles drugs one day, then gambles it all away on a card game just to go drifting again and works in a church for awhile... They have no paterns.

True Neutral: I would say almost Impossible outside nature (Maybe Moderated Greenpeace activist, The Extreamist tends to be like Shadow Druids), There cannot be a side more powerful than the other, Good, Evil Chaos, Law must all be equal if they are to survive. If there is a Benelovent kindom then an equali Evil empire must exist. If Goodness ruled the world how would your reconise it if there isn't evilness to compare it too. Chaos is needed if Laws are to evolve into better laws etc etc...

That was hillarious. Well spoken Yorick.



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Tremble and despair, for I am power! All here are now judged, and are found wanting.

How about the 10th alignment - Hungry? (This was featured in the "Castle Greyhawk" module for AD&D) You could just eat everything and have done with it ("Stop chewing my leg" says Jaheira", "Why are you looking at me like that" says plump Jan Jansen with turnips on the side)

The idea of good and bad are completly rediculace and the idea that a serial killer is chaotic evil is just as much so. A killer especialy serial killers always have a reason for killing maybe it was a messed up childhood where a bully with a buzz cut picked on them so they like to kill anyone thats taller then them with a buzz cut that looks at them the wrong way the reason they do this is because they think they are balancing the system the serial killer is just giving back the punishment he recived thus creating order/law making him lawful alingment. another exsample of good/evil is our good pal the mage Jon iranecus he only did what he did for revenge, he was wronged so he needs to carry out certain deeds to ballance out the pain he suffered to the rest of the world so hes not alone. And in the case of the person who wants absolute power over everyone dispite what all of the people around him feel isnt evil as you may think, in his mind odds are he only is trying to bring order to the world in the means he thinks best. Yes, i am aware how stupid all this sounds its just my point to bring out that the ultimate objective of the universe is to bring balance (order) to chaos and by bringing balance it makes room for choas again, its a lovely paradox i know, this is called the Tao in the Taoist Philosophy which everyone would know from the common symbol of the Yin-Yang that circle with the a dot on each side. but i digress, my sympathy to anyone who actualy read all this.....

Yeah, intent is everything and there is mutch to be understood and forgiven.

I agree w/ white heron
same with guns/bow ,crossbows swords -also
putting a bann on selling or weapons not every one isa goody two shoes.

Strahd, this action contains no good if the definition of good is:

Putting aside ones own agenda for the benefit of others

and evil as being:

Putting aside others benefit for ones own agenda.

You presented the scenario of someone committing "the lesser of two evils".
Taking a life is by definition evil. Thus it would be impossible for any character to complete Baldurs Gate as a truly good character.

The Alignments are as Accord stated roleplay guides that are reminiscent of dominant moral codes within an individual, but hardly representative of them.


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"Check the sustain on this one ... aaaaaaaa, I mean you could go out for a bite and there'd still be aaaaaaaaa"

"Can I touch it?"
"No. It can't be played"
"Can I look at it?
"No we've seen enough of that one....."
http://www.ssanimation.com/site/anim...bj/guitar2.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 04-01-2001).]

I wan't to think that there's at least a few "Ultimate truths" that shall be obeyed by all people all over the world.

Killing another living creature is wrong/evil.

Hurting another living creature is wrong/evil.

Not helping another living creature in need of help is wrong/evil.

Depressing another living creature is wrong/evil

To claim yourself of more worth then another living creature is wrong/evil

To own is wrong/evil

I want to believe that these rules are more then something we've found out ourself, i want to believe there's a "higher" force which've given us these
ideas. But I'm not sure...

Maybe i will speculate more later

Let me try to put the good vs evil debate this way
Take mercykilling for instance. In some countries it is legal and in others it is not. For example you have a relative who is involved in a car accident. She/he is now a vegetable. She/he is pratically brain dead and cannot control her senses or move in anyway and have to be fed from a tube and will live like that forever. If you kill her what act is that? Her is what people will think according to their alignment

Good (Lawful, neutral, chaotic): How could you do that! That's murder, you have no right to take her life away.

Lawful neutral: That's against the law! (If it is outlawed)

Neutral (True and chaotic) : Why not kill her as she is not living her life and also she is suffering the misery of not being able to do anything and being absolutely bored. Might as well relieve her of her pain and suffering and kill her.

Evil (All) : Her cash when she is dead will come in handy! To hell with her!

So with stance will you take?

Nota: these are not 100% typical but to illustrate, possible aliments)


Yes evil is not an absoulut but A Serial killer is Chaotic Evil (per Ad&d rules, by thelimits it imposes), maybe his or her life was screwed but until afew years ago everybody belived only men could be serial killers. But A serial killer works outside the law and dosen't do it for the money(or prestige). In there own twisted mind they kill and most of the time they will appear normal when in public but in a position of power, The killer and a lone unecpected victim they draw on the fact they killed. Chaotic Evil.

A Hitman, Kills for the monney he works outside the law (some maybe twisted, to a higher degree), But usualy you could cross a mob hitman in a street alone and if your not his target (or din't see him shoot a target) he'll leave you alone. Neutral Evil

That Druid, One I took from the book of villains, it's the extream of Chaotic goodness. The Good of the many is more important that the good of the few.

Not to the few! The few view it as evil! Thus it is as I said the lesser of two evils Strahd. The definition of good and evil within an action lies in the effect of that action, not the motive. A person with 'good intentions' can commit horrendous evil. A serial killer by definition commits unspeakable evils against those he kills no matter what shape his brain health is in.

Humans are ALL capable of good, and yet all commit evil every day. A roleplaying game alignment, is representative of the majority of precedented choices that character would have made thus far, so that further choices can be made 'in character'.

How I'd define 'wrong' Lethnael is if it 'wrongs' or hurts someone - be that another individual, oneself, or if religious, ones God.

Did anyone read my definition in my previous post BTW?

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O.K..... what do I do now?
http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Yeah, I saw it.....btw, nice "egg"! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

Yeah, But I was anwering with the tight consepts of Ad&d aliments and giving them real-life application and seriously no one can make a true mold each person's personality. Thecnicly a Paladin attacking a thief would be seen as evil by the thief. We could go in endless discusion on theorises and Philisophical discutions on whetter this and that exist or if this and that exist. It could make for intresting converstion on the general board Through.

I think the best definition of evil is "the lack of empathy for whomever your actions affect."

If everyone truly felt the suffering that they caused to others, there would be very little evil.

it is hard to define evil... hell, it is hard to define anything in this world,

you think you know, but you not know. and when you thought you know, you find what you knew is not what you knew... so says Bruenor Battlehammer

there are so many evil kinds out there: selfish, prejudice, dis-compassion, greed, power-hunger, lying for personal gain... but you see, the problem is, you can find all those things in one person, but he can still have good qualities. i hate to be mainstream, but the world is a place of gray, when you truely look into a character's heart, dug into even the darkest corner where sunlight cannot breach through, and you will find soil of the life of goodness. it is so hard to define an evil person http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif


P.S. welcome to the board!


[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-02-2001).]

Sometimes. Othertimes not. To define, simplify, break something down to it's simplest element. Has anyone read my definition BTW??????? I don't find it hard defining good and evil!



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O.K..... what do I do now?
http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Aha but this is my point. A properly roleplayed Palladin would not attack a thief, and if they had to they would use restraing violence and capture the thief because taking life is evil and usually unecessary.

The truly good mage of the earlier hypothesis would not kill the Druid but find a way to incapacitate the Druid or not commit any evil. The mage that kills the druid is acting OUT OF ALIGNMENT and with "good intentions" but it remains an evil act, a necessary evil? Still evil.

Thanks Accord http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif

What is required to understand the defenition is a subtle change in perception of what evil is. It is not this terribly destructive force that demolishes everything - that is EVIL TAKE TO THE EXTREME. Mother Theresa is GOOD TAKEN TO THE EXTREME.

At it's dividing line you have my definition.

Evil is following your own agenda at expense of the benefit of others
Good is benefiting others at the expense of your own agenda.

Some actions could be in theory neutral, if your own agenda has no consequence on anothers benefit.


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O.K..... what do I do now?
http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Personaly I think that good/evil is determined by the intentions of the one who is performing the act not by the act it's self.

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http://hesperex.tripod.com/hesperex.jpg
My website http://hesperex.8k.com
Hesperex Freth: 1st son of Matron Mother Shi'nayne Freth, 1st house of Ched'Nesad. Weapon master and patron of house Freth.

Very good reasoning, Yorick.

But sometimes the only choice you have is between one 'evil' and another ... Take mercykilling, for example. What if the person has asked you to kill him/her if he/she was to live as a vegetable ? If I asked that of you, would you do it ? I already asked that to my husband, if I happen to lose my mind from Parkinson or Alzheimer disease, I don't want to make the life of the people I love miserable, I don't want to be remembered as someone who peas under herself, I don't want to have people I love cry because I don't recognize them, I want to be killed if that happens ! Would it be 'evil' to kill me then ?

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http://www.ot-nancy.fr/photos_ot/s_fontaine_neptune.jpg
The world is my oyster !

[This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 04-03-2001).]

You can commit evil/destruction of anothers benefit with 'good intentions' though.



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O.K..... what do I do now?
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A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Then the dilemma of that situation lies in determining what is anothers benefit. In cases of intense pain, all that I have felt when under such excruciation is it to stop under any circumstances. When I had pluracy and breathing was agony, all that mattered was the agonies cessation. At another time when I lost half my blood supply and had to get transfusions and multiple tests I had feelings of desolation and confusion and a desire for everything to stop.

My point being that psychologists will tell you to avoid making a life decision during times of crisis. Deciding to end your life during a period of intense illness would constitute such a scenario.

Also menatlity plays a large role in healing. The sick need their loved ones urging them to fight, to stay, that they are loved, needed. Not that the option of ending it exists for no-one wants to be a burden. My wife was under extraodinary duress when I was ill, and my Mother when my father was recently ill. The last thing I wanted to be was a burden to my wife and family, but their love was communicated incredibly. I made sure I then communicated such love to my father upon his illness.

My grandfather has parkinsons, and I cherish every moment I get with him, and curse that there aren't more. He still has a role in my life and I identify with him very strongly as we share many interests.

My great grandfather lived till he was 99 and at the end had Alzheimers so badly he couldn't recognise his wife or daughter. He could still pray though, and when he did he'd recount bible verses and display such love for his creator, that it left a marked impression on me to this day.

Everything in nature clings to life. If a human at any stage desires the cessation of such life, surely the greater benefit for them is to rectify their situation or make the last steps more bareable rather than assisting their surrender to the inevitable.

http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif



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O.K..... what do I do now?
http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Yorick, I replied by mail - this is going far far away from a BG II topic ...

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http://fc1ddq.free.fr/stan2.gif
The world is my oyster !

True, but it lauched itself from a BG topic. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

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O.K..... what do I do now?
http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Destruction by good intentions. If they knew the consequences, they were either mad or evil (and mad is too easy an excuse) but keep trying to convince themselves it's for the good. Paladins are there to protect innocents fro marauders, monsters and demons of the night, not thwocking an elf because it's skin is black! Keldorn is a reprehensible little t**d and if a PC in one of my games attacked every 'evil'-aligned person they saw, the character would be arrested and the PC would lose paladinhood as his alignment would have drifted towards Chaotic
http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...ievalsmile.gif

Precisely, a lawful character would find a way to legally topple or thwart an evil character, for attacking and killing them is both unlawful and evil. A truly good character would most probably 'love their enemy' and seek to 'correct' or 'heal' them of the error in their ways.


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O.K..... what do I do now?
http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

hey, this post is only directed to "a truely good character would try to heal ..." not to other of your posts, alright?

say, sure, a truely good person loves and heals, and enlightens other people, but it really depends on situtaion. a good person wont say, love his enemy just because he is good, because in doing so would result needless bloodshed of many other victims, or maybe his own http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif his love (a good act) can lead to evil fruit.

now this is just other talk related to Hesperex's opinion:

one said evil never come out of good intentions, I think that is not true. some times, people are blinded by their own goodness, falsefully believe their actions are justed and holy (a small example: the Crusade) the Roman soldiers thought they were doing God's duty, to rescue the land which was under rule of Islam. did they believe they acted out of justice? I think yes. was the act truely justiced? that leaves history to answer

anyway, I gtg, THREE TESTS in 48 hours!!


[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-04-2001).]

Yes, I agree, Deux-cent-cinquante http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif , modesty should always be part of the "Good" package, a Good person should always question his/her own conception of Good.

I think that Good people have a big disadvantage and a big advantage towards Evil people :

The disadvantage is that they cannot get rid of their responsibility towards others - whatever they do, they must always take into account the consequences of their actions on other's lifes

The advantage is that they can count on help and support from others, while Evil persons cannot, because betrayal and egoism are Evil core components, so that implies that Evil people are always alone, and fear is their only way to interact with others

Whaddayathink ?



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http://fc1ddq.free.fr/stan2.gif
The world is my oyster !

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! me can hear the ringz iz ringing truth!!!! wizdom!! your opinion on the "advantage" and "disadvantage" part is cleative!!

P.S. serious, it was no joke, very creative! i never thought of it that way. oh, and Deux-cent-Ciquante sounds good! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif