has anyone of you heard a figure named Merlin? he was a mgician in Britan and King Authur's chief advisor, he often assited his king with magical arts.

Merlin was given birth by Incubuss, and he received his father unnatual capabilities.

Mage Merlin mentored King Authur when he was young.


I found it unbelievable, any information?

thanks in advance

he is supposadly the guy that set the sword in the stone (magically) that arther pulled out to become king of england (nearly typed evil)also he helped arther get Excalaber.

------------------
http://website.lineone.net/~mark.langridge/MNO3A3.gif
Bruce The Aussie, Camp Barbarian Hunter OHF

Very popular figure, in many movies...Walt Disney's Sword in the Stone, Merlin, knights of the Round Table, and dozens more, especially ones that talk about King Author.

------------------
http://www.dewa.com/animated/7.gif
Larry of the OHF

ok, i know that part, thx, you only made it more unbelievable http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif any accurate information instead of legends?

also forgot to add this is a myth some belive it some don't

I see... interesting.

Before I had ever played any of theses D&D games I was bought up on the Merlin cartoons/stories he began life in the Sword in the Stone story as an adviser to arthur who became king when he freed the sword from the stone he then later appeared in just about any medievel story featuring the Knights of the round table. From the pictures I have seen he looked like Elminster but he wore blue and was a withdrawn person who lived in a tower in Camelot. I belive he was very powerfull but I cant ever remember him using any magic he used to give people advice in a wise old bearded bloke sort of way.

------------------
http://www.animationcity.net/gifz/babykick.gif
At an early age, Mordrick the Monk showed Promise!

He's not real, ya know! - he's a fictional character. If he had been real, he would have been a priest of the druids.

The King Arthur you hear about isn't real either - but is probably based on a mixture of local warlord (6th century AD) and French legend.

For more about these stories, read Sir Thomas Malory's "Morte D'Arthur" and Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight (anon). These are where all the cartoons, and modern stories come from. They are both works of FICTION, based on older, FICTIONAL legends. Sir Gawaine is written in an ancient English dialect, so is quite difficult to follow. Malory is quite easy to read, and good fun. He wrote it while he was in prison in 1470.

------------------
http://www.gldb.com/wayno/epona2.gif
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.


[This message has been edited by Epona (edited 03-15-2001).]

I thought that the sword in the stone WAS Excalibur?

Hey I just thought cant someone make me an Excalibur although I dont actually know if it was magical or anything in fact just ignore me

------------------
http://www.animationcity.net/gifz/babykick.gif
At an early age, Mordrick the Monk showed Promise!

the king arthur isn't real???? you kidding me. people can fiction heros, fiction mages, fiction dragons, but how can one fiction a king? especially it is tales of Europe. it wouldn't spread out if the king is "fictioned"

there must be some background to it. and I believe there is a real king which king arthur is dedicated to.

There may have been a LOCAL warlord called Arthur, on which part of the legend is based. There is no hard evidence for this. At the time Arthur was supposed to rule (6th Century AD) there WAS NO ENGLAND. So there could have been no King of England. England at this time was made up of small local 'kingdoms' which were not under centralised rule. Northumbria was for example an area under local rule.

BTW, I'm an archaeologist who specialises in Roman and Early Medieval Britain. I'm not saying that you can't have a different viewpoint to me, of course you can, but I can assure you that I DO know what I'm talking about. You have picked my specialist subject.

Also, the reason so many people know about the story is that Malory's book is widely published around the world, and WALT DISNEY made a cartoon which was loosely based on the book which was shown worldwide.

Hope this clarifies things.

------------------
http://www.gldb.com/wayno/epona2.gif
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

King Arthur ruled after the Dark Age began.


Rome first came to Britan in the late republican period, thereafter, Roman empire Gaius Julius Caesar orginazied another raid over the Briton until British king was captured. However, Britan was not a Rome province until 1st century AD.

Later, Rome faced invasions of germanic tribes on its west. that left Briton faced new dangers from tribes such as Jutes, Angles and Saxon

(i forgot the time) eventually, Saxon set its foot on Briton, doing a lot of damage before it was driven out by a rome general.

When Rome fell, the Dark Age began. Many germanic empires sprout all over the western europe, and that left Briton facing the constant invasion.

Then, a decisive battle happened at Mont Badon led by a warlord. Briton defeated Saxon once for all. There was Welsih historian recorded this battle, mentioned the leader was King Arthur...

and the history goes on...

Fact: There was a King called Auther in Wales. I am not sure of the time period. He had a small band of Nights with him. However he used gurila tactics to take on his enemys. It is beleved that this may have been the King Auther of Legend.

Fiction Info: Merlin Aged Backwards.

http://www.britannia.com/history/h12.html

Here is a link I have its got alot of what Epona mentioned, and some links from there. Epona can comment on how accurate it is better than I ever can, but basically its like the taking of a person in your culture, and as time goes on we tend to make them super heros. I can talk about how Rogers Rangers from the French and Indian war was incredible, I can talk about what is imperical data that we do know about him.

Basically Arthur might have been a King of early Britian, and he might have had a celtic adviser named Merlin, but we do not know for sure. Plus the ledgends do say that Merlin was a spawn of a devil (what ever a sucubus is), and so was his sister. Heck one of the wild things was that Merlin was sudecued by his sister, and they had a son who lead the revolt against Arthur. That is consider largely fiction. Arhtur can be consider an Epic story in the vein of Beuwolf, he is a hero, he might have been, he has a journey to get somewhere, something happens, and then the journey back (in a nut shell, I know you english and literay majors will rip it apart http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif ).

Another set of ledgens of English, would be Ivanhoe, King Richard, and Robin Hood. Those are great tales of what could of happened with people we did know to exsist (well we know King Richard did).

Good reading to you.

------------------
Drink and be merry http://www.tgeweb.com/images/forum/icons/beerchug.gif
Jimbo http://www.tgeweb.com/images/forum/icons/ninja1.gif
"Renegade, Rebel, and Rogue"

there was, in fact a king of Britan named Arthur ruled in the beginning of Dark Age. though, if he was the warlord won the battle of Mont Badon, I do not know. gosh, I am tired

Epona, thanks for those posts! My fingers were just itching when I read the first post, but you took all need for an answer out of my hands with your accurate and expert post!
I get to read quite a lot of the research on the subject as well in my study of English Literature. BTW Sir Gawaine and The Green Knight is highly recommendable, there are also modern english translations available. (however if anyone is brave enough to read the original text they earn my respect and can always contact me for help with understanding it!)

------------------
Melusine
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia

I have ploughed my way through the Green Knight - with A LOT of help from a basic glossary of terms.

In answer to all the posts about the Dark Ages, the reason it is called the Dark Ages is because we do not know much about it. As I stated in an early post, there MAY have been a warlord called Arthur (you can translate warlord as King if you like - it does mean a slightly different thing though) and this figure appears to be linked with the areas we now know as Wales and Cornwall. As far as Britain, well Britain did not exist in the Dark Ages. The area we now call Britain (which of course comes from the Roman name for the province, Britannia) was largely broken up into areas of local control by about the 6th Century.

So if Arthur was a king/warlord, he was certainly not King of Britain, but was more like a tribal leader.

What Thomas Malory did, was place ancient legends about this warlord, mixed with some French legends, into a much later time period - the 'age of chivalry' with knights in shining armour and damsels in distress, when there WAS a king of England, to create the legend we now know of King Arthur. It is Malory who made the figure of Arthur into King of England. This account was written in 1470.

The reason Malory was so interested in notions of Chivalry, was because he was in prison for committing rape. What he claimed had happened was that he was having an affair with a married woman, which if either of them had admitted to would have resulted in her death. He admitted to rape in order to spare her, which he considered a courtly, chivalrous thing to do.

He was therefore in some way was writing about his own life when he was writing about Lady Guinevere, her marriage to his fictional King Arthur, and her affair with Sir Lancelot, one of the Knights of the Round table (he saw himself as Lancelot).

I really would recommend everyone read this book, it is an excellent story, and what all the films and later novels are based on. That version of King Arthur as king of England has no historical or factual basis though, and is set several centuries after the period of tribal warlord/kings.

I hope that many of you find this as interesting a legend as I do - I am just trying to provide a bit of historical framework to all the possible interpretations.

------------------
http://www.gldb.com/wayno/epona2.gif
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

The King Arthur/Merlin scenario is virtually pure legend. But great stories! EVERY nation has it's own ancient fictional heroes 'cos we all love a bit of Magic! Specially us! Why else do we play ad&d games, hey? http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-.../lovestory.gif
F.

Absolutely Fljotsdale - I can't think of a single other place where I could actually bring up this subject, let alone have such a cool discussion about it!! And don't get me started on Robin Hood - he's my favorite!

------------------
http://www.gldb.com/wayno/epona2.gif
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

You do know about Santa Claws right bro?

History tells us that their can't be an Arther, but it can't totally tell us that their was not one. I personally doubt it. After all Arther was supposed to come back in Englands darkest hours of need. I would call WWII about as dark as one can hope to get. If not I really don't want to be around to see worse.

Their proabaly was a great king who, to his people, seemed to be King of the world (after all the world was as far as you could walk in those days). Druids were seen as wizards. It's all possiable. His legend however has grown kinda big. I doubt that even he could live up to it now.

Excaliber (or however you spell it) was said to protect the weilder, makeing him unable to be cut, or killed in battle. Proabaly one of the first magic items. It's what a Holey Avenger is modled from.

I was really bumbed when I found out that there might not be a Robin Hood. He had to be by far my favorite hero. Though I think I would just rob the rich, skip the poor.

O well, the beauity of books is that reguardless of fact or fiction, they can be real somewhere. Even if it was a long time ago.

------------------
--Kellin da Mage--

[This message has been edited by Kellin da Mage (edited 03-16-2001).]

I'll weigh in with Epona here. I'm a bit of a student of Celtic history myself.

Arthur: a Celtic Warlord/Chieftan with Merlin or Myrddin? (Correct me on the spelling of his celtic name Ep) his Druidic Sage.

Thanks Donut http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif



------------------
FAIR DINKUM!

Guys, this would probably be better in the GD forum yeah?

------------------
FAIR DINKUM!

heh, but somehow, I read about King Arthur as a king of Britain who ruled in the beginning of the Dark Age. so enlighten me, and no, don't tell me he is just a warlord of some sort, of course he is. show me where your source of information is. thanks in advance

P.S. I am not good at European history, so if I make any mistake, do correct me

I agree that this should have been posted on the GD board but as 250 has invited correction if he is wrong I feel justified in putting my two pennorth in. I acknowledge that some of this information has already been posted by previous contributors.

Britain at the time of the dark ages was not a united country. It was split into various kingdoms each with it's own king. The battle of Mount Badon that you mention was in the 6th century and the first mention of Arthur was by the Welsh Monk Nennius in his 'History Brittanium' some 300 years later. It consisted of one line, in Latin. It is probable that Arthur was the leader of a warrior band left over from the Roman occupation who resisted the Saxons in Cornwall or Wales. His name was possibly Riothamus a man from Brittany in Gaul. I appreciate there are many other individuals that are believed to be the basis of the Arthurian legend. Over the centuries of constant telling and retelling the 'fact' has been embellished into the legendary hero that we now know.

There is no question of the Saxons being totally defeated and the Angles, Saxons and Jutes drove the native Britons into Wales, Scotland and the West Country. The word England is actually derived from the name of the 'Angles' tribe.

You are also slightly wrong on your Roman history of Britain. Julius Caesar invaded in 55BC and Britain paid financial tribute to Rome until it became a Roman province following the invasion of 43AD by the Emperor Claudius. I think the 'British King' that was captured was King Caractacus who was King of the Silurian tribe.

Just a couple of few other points:

The Dark Ages are so called because virtually nothing is known about the period. Robin Hood is also a legend based on a real person but he was just an outlaw. He robbed from the rich and the poor and he kept what he stole.

Richard I or the Lionheart as he is known , the great symbol of England Kings was French, he reigned for 10 years, during this time he spent less than 6 months in England and spoke very little English.

------------------
The Truth is in the Profile

Thanks Donut. Very interesting reading. Appreciative the effort, I am http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

------------------
FAIR DINKUM!

hmm, that was a very nice history of yours, thanks. I know virtually little to nothing about Dark Ages, thank you very much. any website I can read about?

Watch the film "Excalibur". Great re-telling of the Arthurian legend with plenty of Merlin appearances. Think I remember him casting a few spells using his staff during the movie.

A little word on Sword Legends.
The Sword in the Stone, which Arthur pulled out when he was a boy for his foster brother Kay was a symbol that Merlin set to determine the true King of England. It was he that had a vision of Arthur's golden reign and engineered these events. This sword had an inscription that said "whoever draws me is the true king of england" or something to that effect. Many nobles tried, but the only person capable of drawing the sword was the boy Arthur.
Arthur supposedly broke this sword whilst in battle (my source says a giant or something, but that is doubtful).
Excalibur and it's sheath were a parting gift from Merlin to Arthur.
Legend states that Merlin brought Arthur to an enchanted lake, and Arthur was given Excalibur by the Lady of the Lake.
Excalibur itself was made of the finest alloys, and could cut stone and steel without losing it's edge. It was it's scabbard however, that held the true power, for it was said to be able to protect the wearer from all bodily harm, that so long as the wearer had the scabbard, he would not, and could not die.

------------------
Why?

Thanks all, interesting additions -

Donut, you're absolutely spot on, history genius, and put far more concisely than my rambling (just imagine me sitting in a darkened room, muttering to myself, I sometimes get so involved in the minutae of detail that I forget to include the bigger picture!!).

Yorick, I'm not sure about the correct spelling myself - the spelling of names often changes over time anyway!

Lifetime, that's another interesting theme - there is a lot of symbolism in old legends and art which we no longer know how to 'read'. We now live in a society which is largely literate and where information 'overload' is a part of every day life. In a society where people could not generally read or write, or where learning was limited to a small priesthood or elite, legend and art became much more than just interesting stories and pretty designs - they often have meanings woven into them that would hold as much information to the person hearing/viewing them as our daily newspaper gives to us!

------------------
http://www.gldb.com/wayno/epona2.gif
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Epona, I totally agree with you. It is true that when many newer versions of old classics or texts are read, there is always the feeling that it's lost something in the translation. Since many stories and legends were writen in now dead languages, or have changed much in the last few hundred years, many words or phrases that had multiple meanings and implications might have been translated into something with the same face meaning, but loses all subtlety and wit that it had. I guess thats the price you have to pay for understanding the big picture.
And about education, I guess thats how myths and legends come about..by word of mouth and gross exaggeration http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

------------------
Why?