Liches are waaayyy cool, so are dragons... I just dont know which is... which? : )

Liches are powerful but only for its spells, Dragons have some spells but are stronger.in concuslion i think the are just as powerful, the lich the second most powerful mage, the Dragon the second most Fighter. but imagion them combimed....

There is right? Dracolich?

Yes, your right but don't you wish you could meet one and its Cultist Gurds, now that would be a quest that would be.

what of Deamon? i think some you meet could kill dragons, liches and Dracoliches. sPoLlIeR





ie the one in the center of the screen in that other plane.

Well, I'm not sure that a dracolich is in the new Pools of Radiance game, but from the demo's I've seen, they do show them in action. Does anyone know if this monster is in that game. Maybe we could test our mettle yet. From some of the earlier D&D games, CRPG, the dracolich was pretty tough to fight. They are immune to at least up to +3 magical weapons, and they have a spell resistance that is tough to blast through. Better stock up on those Pierce magics. LOL. I can't remember the breath weapon though, but I remember it was more devastating than a regular dragon though.

Liches, Dracoliches, blah blah, come'on. I want a campaign that lets you take on a god.

(I'm crazy, right???)

Only if you want to take on a greater power

On the other hand, it would be cool to battle with a demi-power...

Dragons without a doubt. I think that dragons are more than a little underpowered in BG2. If Firkraag was an ancient red dragon there's no way a party of 6 Level 10-15 adventurers would be able to beat him in real PnP.

As for the question about fighting gods, if they could make something akin to Planescape: Torment, that would be great. We got to fight angels in there and some minor hell minions. Truly not as powerful as a dragon, but exciting never-the-less. Wouldn't it be cool if we could fight Lolth? What about her handmaidens? Now there's an adventure to write home about. ;o)

Well I have to agree with Memnoch, Dragons are underpowered. If you read about Dragons in any AD&D, you see that they´re really powerful enemies, just read about them in the 3:ed monster manual, and the way they describe the way Dragons fight, well old Firekragg was really ancient and inmobilized in the fighting.. "If a Dragon is faced by powerful foes a common strategy is to fly high up in the air dropping rocks, or call down quakes, avalanches and other to fight there foes.."
If not landing ontopp of a creature would do the trick...,
Well licehs aren´t goblins ok, but liches are a magic based undead creature and thus humanoid sized ones aren´t as devastating to meet as dragons that can melt rocks with there breath or just stomp out a city..
The answers would be, Liches and Demons are powerful foes, Dragons are challenges for the Demigods...

As for fighting Gods and Demigods, have anyone read the Adod 2:ed books on higher beings and gods? An excellent book describing some gods, there you can see what it is that you will face, rember Dragonlance and Brothers Majorie anyone??

Gods, oh my, this could be exciting!

Yes Dragons are way underplayed. I've DMed adventures where not even the strongest of parties can kill an ancient red. Simply put, they did not use near the tactics a true dragon would. After all, what dragon lives that long without knowing how to destroy all that opposes them. And above all else, most dragons even if they were overmatched would be smart enough to retreat, then harass the party, picking off one or two when convenient. Dragons are supposed to be the most powerful mortal creatures in the game after all.

As for liches, again they truly underplayed them. Most exist for centuries and have magics that may have been lost to the present time, i.e. the time of Netheril, if you are completely familiar with Forgotted realms than you know this to be the most powerful realm of mages to ever exist. Some liches would date even that far. ALso, there is the idea about a lich's phylactery that makes them impossible to kill unless you destroy the container, or they will just keep coming back time and again.

Now Dracoliches, the combnation of these two, the strengths of the original dragon with the ability to keep coming back unless the phylactery is destroyed, now THAT is something to truly fear.

I have played countless hours of D&D and can say that the dragon would be more powerful if played right,as they don't have wardings against undead and protections vs the undead.Both have the ability to cast magic yet the dragon has more innate abilities then the lich.If you have the dracolich as an opponent you could somewhat try to use the protections vs undead but by the shear mass size and hitdice of such an enourmous creature it would probably fail to protect you(as there are rulings vs. size/hit die).Now as for taking on the gods(or more possible for adventurers....taking on demigods.)This would be quite the adventure(Jon if you're listening this would be a great add on!!!)...for starters you would have the ability to start the game at an extremely high level...or use chrs that you might already have(for those that use the cheats/xp cap removers)then you could bring balance in the game by having to overthow a demigod,then you would have to prove yourself(possibly by defeating a dracolich....hehehe)then you would be granted temporary statis till you built yourself a pantheon and created an avatar to represent your power on earth.This would merely be the beginning as you would then be faced with the hiarchy of the gods.This means position/station and would have to be enforced each time another challenged you or moved against you,becoming also somewhat of a diplomacy game.You could then assign some players to do the work for you,which would leave you playing their chrs for a while.This would be the fun of becoming a god!!!

How about a Demolichagon? A demon Lich and Dragon all together the second I saw that I would away. Also in my add-on there will be a Dragolich hopefully.

I like the idea of saigo and Jon...I hope some creater is reading your post!

Hope for teambg to read it...

And Memnoch is right. The reason why I asked this question is because I find it easier to dismantle Firkraag than a Lich, not Kanggax, A LICH ONLY. A puny lil' Lich vs. a Dragon. In BG2, the lich would win. There's a big chance by the dragon, but I don't think so. And c'mon! Ancient Dragon versus a common lich?! I wish the Dragons would be pretty deadly in BG3 or some other expansion.... are they planning to make an expansion on BG2?

I meant Jon's idea... hehe regarding the teambg...

Attacking Demigods, or full powers! i don't think you surive, first you will have to reach its home plane, avoid its memions. fight its when its compelety focused on you. and then if it has a boss, ie Auzth's, Mystra. if you surrive that, you will have to get Ao to let you stay. all this while avoiding Helm for tesspassing in the relam of the gods. because if you were to fight one on the prime plane it would just be an avatar and would keep coming back. only only way to win would be to wait for another time of troubles and kill one when its striped of its powers.

How about an expansion where you take on the forgotten sun god Anathakon (sp). He is in two quests in the game!

Well, if you are at VERY high levels, Minions would be fine... or, they caould generate another time of troubles to make the quest possible... OR how about if YOU start it?

How would you start a time of troubles, i don't think telling one god that another called him a !*?^# will work. besides Ao is the only one that can strip a god of their powers and he only did it before because they were ingoring their jobs.
As for fighting Amauntor, why he is weak, all of his followers are dead, and his name forgotten.

the only way to face a god is for the character to become Bhaal and be the god of murder. but then Cyric would be P*ssed.

the best opion is to throw the character in to the Blood Wars. more then enough monsters to fight and power to gain. think the Leader of a army of deamons or their god them you could fight one or perhaps all of them. (evil laughing)

Now, HOW DA HELL ARE YOU GONNA BEAT UP THE HELL OUT OF THE GODS THEN?!?! If Ao is there... things are pretty bleak for the 'Rise to Godhood' campaign... : )

the army of deamons would kill the minions while you and the most powerful kill the god and then the deamons betray you and or ripped to sherads..... i see your point.

There are like a few words facing that Tarrasque or Tiamat... HOLY SHIT. PERIOD. How bout Bahamut? He ain't in DnD eh? oh well... whose the last ruler of the Nine Hells? Anything stronger than a Tarrasque?

Ummm . . . did you read the begining of Memnoch's lovely receital of Tiamet stats by saying "And in case you need more of a challenge after dustin' off the old tarrasque, say hello to Tiamat, ruler of the First Plane of the Nine Hells"

T-Bone is quick the squeaker. Met her on the human plane once. We managed to kill off one of the heads before T-Bone killed off our entire 1200 man Keep. I was a 20th level Paladin with a ranger and a Thief and a Fighter Cleric, Cleric/Mage, Cavalier, Mage/Fighter, and a Monk named Jax. One day it was business as usual with my small city size keep, next day it was a small burnt scortch mark on the side of the world. Don't ever Royally Piss off a DM by saying his NPCs and Monsters suck, bring on a REAL challenge.

BK

Try Odin... : P

And Memnoch, bring on those crazy muthafuckaz!!!! hehe I'm bored! just finished them off wit ma sword! Princess' guard it's called, yes... An' it grows in power as wielder does! haha!

Eeehhh, sorry for hijacking your thread, Bahamut. This god stuff is all my fault. I'm gonna go feed myself to a dragon now.

Dragons should be far stronger than liches, and I'm not sure even Halaster Blackcloak would have the power to kill an ancient red. In game terms, though, they're far too even. I think Firkraag would win against a regular lich, but I'm not so sure about Thaxll'ssyllia (shadow dragon).

So many questions, so little Time. Possible spoiler for all you kiddies out there.










Okay, the dragons in this game were way undersized. Memnoch was right about them being way too easy. I killed the Black Dragon in the Elvish Villiage without losing anyone. BORING!! I think it would be too time consuming to program the dragon for flying attacks, and the designers wanted to keep the battle in 2D. The GODHOOD idea, however . . . that has some merit. But remember, it is not always into the realm of Zeus, it might be Tiamet plane. FUNFUNFUN!!! For those who play DnD out there, I have a friend who has a Major GOD! My PnP Paladin worships him (mainly so she can "hang" with the 20 Charisma Cleric, but that is another story for another time). Great idea for BG3. But I don't know how the programers are going to like it.

Later

BK

dragons are also subject to the movement bug. as long as you stay out of the visual range, you can cast multiple cloudkills at them and watch them cough their life out.

liches on the other hand, CHEAT. Once faced a lich in the unseeing eye, i forgot it was there, and while I was casting spell protection and my own skeleton army to hack it to bits, it cast several skeleton warriors. Ha, I thought, finally I get to use the same tactic against a lich! and cast a death spell at them, because the manual says when you cast a death spell at a summoned creature, its dispelled immediately. I was pissed when all they did was shrug it off.

anyway, I think the worst monster is beholders. liches and dragons are always single creature. this gives you a chance to concentrate your firepower, spell or not, so you can attack from multiple vectors. beholders come in packs, and their projectile attacks are nasty. combination of spellstrike and death spells is no laughing matter.

Necromantic spells don't work against undead, do they?

Dragons are much stronger than Liches. I think the people who made BG2 thought it would be really neat to be able to kill something so powerfull as dragons without having to wait for BG3. so they lowered the dragons stats a little.

Hey, maybe we'll see a Tarrasque in BG3! Try pitting your 6 boys and girls against this motherfucker:

Tarrasque (as taken from the 2e Monstrous Compendium)
Climate/Terrain: Any Land
Frequency: Unique (But still inhabitant of Prime Material plane, unline demons/gods)
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: See below
Diet: Omnivore
Intelligence: Animal (1)
Treasure: See below
Alignment: Nil
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: -3
Movement: 9, Rush 15
Hit Dice: 300hp (Approx. 70HD)
Thac0: -5
No. of Attacks: 6
Damage/Attacks: 1-12/1-12/2-24/5-50/1-10/1-10
Special Attacks: Sharpness bite, Terror
Special Defenses: See below
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: G(50' long)
Morale: Champion (15)
XP Value: 107,000

The legendary Tarrasque, for there is fortunately only one known to exist, is the most dreaded monster native to the Prime Material plane. The creatuer is a scaly biped with two horns on its head, a lashing tail, and a reflective carapace.

Combat: The Tarrasque is a killing machine, and when active (see below) eats everything for miles around, including all animals and vegetation. Normal attacks are with its two forelimb claws (1d12 points of damage each), a sweeping tail lash (2d12 points of damage), a savage bite (5d10 points of damage plus acts as a sword of sharpness, severing a limb on a natural attack roll of 18 or better), and two thrusting horn attacks (1d10 points of damage each).
Once every turn, the normally slow moving Tarrasque can rush forward at a movement rate of 15, making all horn attacks cause double damage and trampling anything underfoot for 4d10 points of crushing damage.
The mere sight of a Tarrasque causes creatures with less than 3 levels or Hit Dice to be paralyzed with fright (no saving throw) until it is out of their vision. Creatures with 3 or more levels or Hit Dice flee in panic, although those of 7 or more levels or Hit Dice that manage to succeed with a saving throw vs paralyzation are not affected (though they often still decide to run away).
The Tarrasque's carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective. Bolts and rays such as lightning bolts, cones of cold, and even magic missiles are useless against it. The reflection is such that 1 in 6 of these attacks actually bounces directly back at the caster (affecting him normally), while the rest bounce off harmlessly to the sides and into the air.
The Tarrasque is also immune to all heat and fire, and it regenerates lost hit points at a rate of 1 hit point per round. Only enchanted weapons (+1 or better) have any hope of harming the Tarrasque. The Tarrasque is totally immune to all psionics.

Habitat/Society: It is fortunate that the Tarrasque is only active for short periods of time. Typically, the monster comes forth to forage for a week or two, ravaging the countryside for miles around. The Tarrasque then seeks a hidden lair underground and lies dormant, sleeping for 5d4 months before coming forth again. Once every decade or so, the monster is particularly active, staying awake for several months. Thereafter, its period of dormancy is 4d4 years unless disturbed. The ratio of active to dormant states seems to be about 1:30.

Ecology: Slaying of the Tarrasque is said to be possible only if the monster is reduced to -30 or fewer hit points and a wish is then used. Otherwise, even the slightest piece of the Tarrasque can regenerate and restore the monster completely. Legend says that a great treasure can be extracted from the Tarrasque's carapace. The upper portion, treated with acid and then heated in a furnace, is thought to yild gems (10d10 diamonds of 1,000 gp base value each). The underbelly material, mixed with the creature's blood and adamantite, is said to produce a metal that can be forged by a master dwarven blacksmith into 1d4 shields of +5 enchantment. It takes two years to manufacture each shield, and the dwarves aren't likely to do it for free.
It is hoped that the Tarrasque is a solitary creation, some hideous abomination unleashed by the dark arts or by elder, forgotten gods to punish all of nature. The elemental nature of the Tarrasque leads few living Tarrasque experts to speculate that the elemental princes of evil have something to do with its existence. In any case, the location of the Tarrasque remains a mystery, as it rarely leaves witnesses in its wake, and nature quickly grows over all remnants of it presence. It is rumored that the Tarrasque is responsible for the extinction of one ancient civilization, for the records of their last days spoke of a "great reptilian punisher sent by the gods to end the world."

Oh and this is what it looks like.

And in case you need more of a challenge after dustin' off the old tarrasque, say hello to Tiamat, ruler of the First Plane of the Nine Hells:

3rd Ed Stats - quite lengthy

Tiamat
Colossal Dragon
Hit Dice: 49d12+588 (906 hp)
Initiative: +4 (Improved Initiative)
Speed: 40 ft., Fly 150 ft. (clumsy), Sw 40 ft.
AC: 50 (-8 size, +48 natural)
Attacks: 5 Bites, +60 melee; 2 wings, +55 melee; sting, +55 melee
Damage: Bite, 4d6+19; wings, 2d8+9; sting, 4d6+9 plus poison
Face/Reach: 15'x40' / 15'
Special Attacks: Breath weapons, frightful presence, sound imitation, spells, spell-like abilities
Special Defenses: Scent, spell resistance 30, damage reduction (25/+4), immunities, see invisibility, keen senses, water breathing
Saves: Fort +39, Ref +27, Will +34
Abilities: Str 49, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 28
Skills: Alchemy +35, Bluff +61, Concentration +63, Diplomacy +61, Gather Information +59, Intimidate +61, Knowledge (Arcana) +31, Knowledge (Dragonkind) +34, Knowledge (History) +31, Knowledge (the Planes) +31, Knowledge (Religion) +31, Listen +61, Scry +61, Search +61, Sense Motive +59, Spellcraft +61, Spot +61, Wilderness Lore +33.
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Hover, Improved Critical (Bite), Improved Initiative, Expertise, Fly-By Attack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability (domination), Snatch, Wingover
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary (1), Troupe (Tiamat and 1d6 chromatic dragons of age categories d8+4)
Challenge Level: 25 (solitary)
Treasure: When traveling, Tiamat carries her magic items and 2d12+2 gems of various sizes. Her lair contains 2d4 level 20 treasures.
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement Range: N/A

Combat:

Multiple Heads: As shown above, Tiamat gains five bite attacks per round. A head can be severed with a slashing weapon if the weilder inflicts a single blow causing 185 hp damage.

Breath Weapons (Su): Must wait d4 rounds between using breath weapons. As she has five heads, each head can deliver a different breath weapon. DC 46 Reflex save for half damage for each type of breath weapon:

Cold: 12d6 damage
Acid: 24d4 damage
Gas: 24d6 damage
Lightning: 24d8 damage
Fire: 24d10 damage
Frightful Presence (Ex): Can cause "panicked" or "shaken" state in creatures under 49 HD within a 480' range (DC 43 Will save negates for one day).

Sound Imitation (Ex): Tiamat can mimic any sound or voice. DC 43 Will save to detect.

Spells: Tiamat is a 20th-level sorcerer and a 20th-level Cleric with access to the domains of Evil and Law.

Spell-like Abilities: In addition to her spells, Tiamat can cast each of the following three times per day as a 20th-level caster: command plants, control weather, darkness, domination, fog cloud, gust of wind, mirage arcana, plant growth, suggestion, summon swarm, veil, ventriloquism. DCs against these spells are 19 plus the spell level. She can corrupt water once per day. She can charm reptiles three times per day (as mass charm spell, DC 27 Will save negates).

Poison (Ex): Stung creatures suffer 3d6 temporary Constitution damage (DC 46 Fort save to negate). After 1 minute, make a second save or suffer an additional 3d6 temporary Constitution damage.

Water Breathing (Ex): At will, always active.

Magic Items: Tiamat typically carries these items (not included in stats): amulet of the planes, +8 bracers of armor, carpet of flying, cloak of displacement, crystal ball with detect thoughts, darkskull, iron bands of Bilarro, iron flask, orb of storms, portable hole, +5 ring of deflection, +5 ring of resistance, rod of rulership, rod of splendor.

Hahah! I was about to say the only thing I'd rather face less would be the wrong end of Tiamat's breath weapon.

From how they made it sound in the dark elf trilogy, I'd hate to have to come up against a Yochlol too. Or even worse, LOLTH. Definitely would back out of a fight with Tiamat or the Tarrasque though.

There's a Yochlol in BG2, but you have to go through Viconia's romance to fight it. I'm pretty certain there are worse Tanar'ri you can face, though.

Armisael, don't know about you, but that was definitely the puniest, scrawniest, wussiest yochlol I've ever faced. I was expecting a BIT more...

And yochlols are meant to be handmaidens of Lolth, they can destroy an entire drow elf house all by themselves.