I would like to receive some advice/suggestion about attribute raising on level ups. My problem is that the effect of attributes is threefold. Firstly, there is a direct effect (e.g. more strength -> more damage or more piety -> more spell points), secondly, an attribute serves as a control factor for skills, and thirdly, a natural attribute value of 100 unlocks a coveted personal skill. Even this brief consideration shows how complex the effects are and how difficult the choice is, which attributes to raise.

May be an example depicts my calamities. If I want to create a mighty fighter, route 1 could be to raise strength (damage output, attack value, stamina), speed (initiative, more attacks), vitality (hit points, stamina), senses (initiative, attack value), and dexterity (attack value, number of swings). Five attributes are a lot to focus on, but a lot of "secondary attributes" would be improved. Route 2 would be to raise senses as the (main) controlling attribute for close and ranged combat and for dual weapons, and strength or/and dexterity for the various weapon skills. This would raise most skills considerably just by two or three attributes to raise, but the "secondary skills" (attack value, initiative ...) are somehow neglected. Route 3 would be to create a lizardman with STR=73, VIT=73, DEX=67, SPD=67 allowing four expert skills at level 21. But this includes three very low attributes (INT=25, PIE=25, SEN=30) with all their disadvantages.

Of course, the fighter is just an example, and things are different for other classes, but I hope I made clear what I mean.

Side question: what is the approximate relation between controlling attribute value and likeliness of skill improvement by training?

Heyho!

One thing you should consider are the exceptional skills you get when you raise an attribute to 100, they are VERY important for certain classes (e.g. eagle shot for the gadgeteer, which you get for 100 in senses). That is, for your fighter, raise strength as fast as possible to get Powerstrike (or whatever it was called). OTOH, I've never had a fighter, so maybe there are better ideas.

That said, I'd really focus on 2 attributes, MAXIMAL 3. Chooses them by the effects you mentioned above, and how they suit you (I like raising speed and dexterity for the additional increase in initiative and for more attacks). You can also check out http://geocities.com/jandrall/ for many thoughts on certain classes.

Hope that helps, cheers
Philipp

Welcome farl.

I prefer to raise 2 attributes to max at once instead of three. It's more important to unlock the advanced skill for the profession early.

For a fighter I prefer strengh and dexterity. Strengh because of powerstrike ( like pyrates mentioned ) and reflexion which not only makes it harder for the monsters to hit the character, you also gain additional attacks.

A fighter has enough HP to survive, so I never d maxed out VIT. Of course that just my opinion.

Greetings

[img]graemlins/monster5.gif[/img]

I agree with Loudhy about the Fighter and about raising 2 attributes each level up.

Vit is usually in the second tier of attributes that I increase once Str and Dex are maxed out. The other attribute I usually concentrate on is Speed, particularly with Lizarmen or Draconians whose Senses is so low that raising it is pointless.

In general you want to concentrate on 2 attributes, in my opinion. Wiz 8 really rewards specialization, unlike the previous two games which were the opposite. Don't worry if one character has low score in one area, the point of having a party of characters is that they all cover each other's weaknesses.

xfactor

First of all, here's an excellent site for examining the pros & cons of the different attributes and development paths:

http://www.flamestryke.com/wizardry8...trykes_w8.html

Go to "Char Dev Index" and then explore the various topics, including "Attributes" and "Character Building".

Pretty much everyone has their opinions on what attributes are best to develop, and there's also an argument about specialization vs generalization. Wizardry makes this even tougher by ensuring that every single attribute has at least some value for every single character. Search around and you'll find plenty of discussion.

Now, on to my two cents.

I am definitely in favor of specialization: focus on a small number of attributes to gain access to certain key expert skills earlier and other benefits. Yes, every attribute can benefit every character, but some are flat-out better for certain characters than others, and you'll have a stronger character overall by maintaining that focus rather than spreading it around to less key attributes.

However, there's more than one way to specialize, even after you've picked the attributes you want to focus on. Here's the three general ways to build a focused character:

3x3: Pick 2 attributes to focus on, and raise them to max ASAP by putting in 3 points per level into each. As they max switch to building 2 other attributes similarly. This usually gets you 2 expert skills ASAP, but only those 2: you won't max the other 2 attributes unless you keep playing long after you could have ended the game. It is possible for a properly planned Lizardman Fighter to pull off maxing 4 attributes in this manner by the early level 20s, but no other race/class combination in the game can do so. Still, this is a sensible plan for many characters that have several important attributes but only two that really

2x2x2: Pick 3 attributes to focus on, and raise them equally by putting in 2 points per level into each. When one maxes, go 3x3 on the remaining 2 if they haven't. For many characters this can get you 3 expert skills before the game ends, but you'll get them later than the 3x3 plan. For some odd race/class combinations that give you poor bonus points you may not be able to max 3 attributes in this manner, but for most (certainly all of yours except maybe the Dwarf Monk) this is a reliable way of achieving 3 expert skills.

3x1.5x1.5: Pick 3 attributes to focus on, but pick one of those 3 to REALLY prioritize. Give that one attribute 3/lvl till you max it, and split the remaining 3 points among the other 2 attributes. Or, similarly, go 3/3/0 for about half the levels it takes to max the first attribute, then 3/0/3 for the rest of the levels. This is almost identical to the 2x2x2 plan, except that you can get one expert skill just as fast as you would have under the 3x3 plan, and the other two come in later at the same time as they would have under the 2x2x2 plan. It's my preferred way to build characters that focus on 3 attributes, since you get that one expert skill early enough to be able to take full advantage of it.

Now my two cents on the various attributes:

STR: Provides an incredible array of benefits to close combatants: more damage, better chance to hit in close combat, increased stamina, primary attribute for almost all melee weapons, and unlocks Powerstrike. A must for any close combatant, usually as priority #1.

DEX: Provides a better chance to hit, but both for close and ranged combat (unlike STR which just helps close combat). Provides increased attacks/swings, which is critical for any combatant. Primary for Dagger, and secondary for most other weapons. High priority for most close and ranged combatants. Unlocks Reflection.

SPD: Provides initiative. Provides increased attacks/swings, which is critical for any combatant. Helps with a couple of skills. Unlocks Snakespeed, which provides even more initiative. Handy for all classes, but especially spellcasters that need to get spells off before the enemy.

VIT: Provides more HP and stamina. Unlocks Ironskin, which provides physical damage resistance. Never unwelcome for any character, but usually not high priority enough to focus on.

SEN: Provides initiative and better chance to hit for both close and ranged combat. Primary for Critical Strike, Dual Wield, Close and Ranged Combat, and Psionics. Unlocks Eagle Eye, which provides better ranged chance to hit. Handy for ranged combatants, who love Eagle Eye and hate wasting ammo, and spellcasters that need to get spells off before the enemy. Also handy for close combatants, especially ones that use Critical Strike, but generally not as high priority for them as other attributes.

INT: Primary attribute for all 6 Magic realms and Wizardry. Unlocks Powercast, which increases the power/duration of spells and reduces the enemy's chance to resist them. Primary and/or secondary for many general-use skills, interestingly including Close and Ranged Combat. A must for any spellcaster, generally as priority #1, to unlock Powercast ASAP and raise realm skills quickly.

PIE: Provides stamina and extra spell points. Unlocks Iron Will, which increases resistance to all magic realms. Primary for Divinity (but not the Divine realm, which like all realms uses INT). Useful but not a must for spellcasters (not even Priests) and just about useless for close and ranged combatants (except for extra stamina if maxed STR and VIT isn't enough for some reason). Solo characters for whom enemy spell effects can be especially deadly sometimes choose to focus on this just for Iron Will.


Now let's discuss your 6 specific characters:

human lord: Recommendation: STR, DEX to max, then SPD, VIT. Powerstrike and Reflection will both be handy expert skills for this character, and you can have them both by 16th level by focusing on STR and DEX. SPD and VIT can then increase later for a little more speed and resilience.

human valkyrie: Recommendation: STR, DEX to max, then SPD, SEN. Powerstrike and Reflection again, as early as 15th level. Not quite identical to the Lord, using SEN instead of VIT later on to boost initiative a tad instead of HP, so she can cast spells or otherwise act a little faster.

dwarf monk: Recommendation: STR, VIT to max, then DEX, SPD. Yes, the Dwarf Monk with Ironskin gives you the best physical damage resistance of any character in the game. If you have decided to go that route, then I'd definitely pair it with STR. You should wind up with Powerstrike and Ironskin at 18th level. (Later than with most classes, but that's the price you pay for picking a character that starts as an apprentice.) You won't see that many attacks with this character until much later when you get a chance to start raising DEX and SPD, but this will definitely be someone that can take punishment on the frontline. Monks with Martial Arts rule, by the way... go barefisted/barefooted and you won't regret it. You'd probably get a more deadly character by starting STR, DEX and then SPD, SEN, but not a more resilient one.

felpurr samurai: Recommendation: STR, SPD to max, then SEN, DEX. Normally for a Samurai I'd recommend STR and DEX, but since this is also your only Wizardry caster, it will be a good idea to have Snakespeed so at high levels you can cast key Wizardry spells before the enemy can act. With this build your Samurai won't connect as often as your other party members, but will act faster and occasionally steal kills with the Critical Strike skill. You can get Snakespeed at 13th level and Powerstrike at 16th level if you focused on STR/SPD from creation. Pump SEN along with STR for levels 13-16 to start getting even more initiative.

hobbit rogue: Recommendation: STR, DEX to max, then SPD, SEN. Like those 60 bonus points, eh? Hope you put 20 each into STR and DEX. Reflection at 10th, Powerstrike at 15th, and Snakespeed and Eagle Eye at 25th are possible for this character. (You should be about ready to win the game by 25th level, by the way.) Stealth, plus the ability to wear decent armor and even a shield if needed reduce the need for vitality, allowing you to focus on the more active combat attributes. Rogues are the cuisinarts of Wiz8, dealing incredible damage with backstabs.

lizardman fighter: Recommendation: STR, VIT to max, then DEX, SPD. My real recommendation is actually more complex, but that is the easiest Lizardman Fighter plan to follow and if you do it right (starting from character creation), you can get Powerstrike, Ironskin, Reflection, and Snakespeed by 21st level. By starting with the Lizardman's two best attributes, you can get Ironskin at 6th and Powerstrike at 9th. This character will be able to deal and absorb incredible amounts of damage. Beware the low Lizardman mental resistances, though, and make a point to collect and utilize any items (and cast spells) that improve your Lizardman's mental resistance for key fights: you don't want this character to go insane on you!


Anyway, just my two cents. Enjoy whatever your choices!


PS: My real Lizardman Fighter recommendation: All bonus points to STR, DEX, SPD. STR, DEX till STR maxes (level 9), then DEX, SEN until DEX maxes (level 12), then SPD, SEN until SPD maxes (level 23), then VIT, SEN till the end (level 33, but you'll win long before then). This gives you 100 STR, DEX, and SPD, as well as 70 VIT and 70 SEN by level 23. It's fun to max VIT early for a Lizardman Fighter, but really unnecessary: Fighters get the most HP as is, and a Lizardman's base 70 VIT will add even more on top of that. A Lizardman Fighter's only real weakness is that low SEN. This build still gets you Powerstrike and Reflection fast, but starts building SEN up starting from level 10 to improve the Close Combat skill, which will otherwise lag due to low SEN.

If you want my opinion:

If you will be using haste, for all characters max strength + dex first with 3 points per level.

If you won't be using haste, max strength + speed first for all characters with 3 points per level.

everything else is unnescessary for a melee party.

You dont need senses ( strength does a better job for melee and you dont need eagle eye ).

You dont need intellegence.

You dont need piety ( strength is better for stamina and magic resistance from the expert skill is not enough to neglect str / speed / dex ).

Vitality would be nice, but you need str / speed / dex more. Most of your party should have enough health regardless.

After strength / dex / speed is maxed, I would max vitality then its a tossup I guess ( depending on how you play ).

As far as pumping attributes for raising skills faster, I say, it aint worth it. Your skills will raise fast enough regardless. If you really want higher controlling attributes you can buy some amulets of piety / vitality / whatever from a few vendors. That will help a little.

Oh yes i forgot to add, about damage resistance and the monk.

The damage resistance is nice, but with stealth he will probably never get hit anyway, unless by magic. So its pretty much a waste to pump vitality first for iron skin, unless you plan on setting him in front all alone, and at the same time he won't be doing the kind of damage to make him worth while, because you will neglect strength or speed.

And whats this about martial arts??? are you nutz? even with a terribly weak weapon he will do more damage ( and more instakills ) then barehanded.

Give him the staff of doom or the zoitachi bo and he should do nicely, and he will also have some range.

Before that, there are some good staves bought or found early on he can train up with.

Thank you all for taking the time to make some valuable comments and suggestions. There are some interesting points you made, and I will reconsider my initial development plan.

Klutz, I'd like to especially thank you for your elaborate analysis on my party and the according attribute point distribution. I mostly appreciate that you focussed on every character of my party and the route he/she should take.

One side question comes to my mind. Without a pure spell caster, one focus of my all melee party is magic, but the attributes intelligence and piety are completely neglected. Are the initial values high enough to develop decent spell casting just by practice?

Depends what you mean by practice. If you mean just walking through the game and casting spells as you need them, then you would be lucky to get the magic school in the 70's by the end of the game ( assuming you didn't hang around longer then you had to ). This could vary depending on how many points you put into magic skills every level.

If you powertrained then you can get all your magic skills including magic realms to 100, it just takes maybe twice as long as if you had intellegence at max.

However, you can get a helm that gives you +20 intellegence, and a shield that gives + 10. You can equip them every time you want to train your magic skills.

I always powertrain my spellcasters even before they have over 70 intellegence. It takes a little longer but still isn't that bad.

I don't see a party of 6 with 4 hybrids ever getting particularly good at magic without a serious amount of power training. Having said that, you should have all the spells you need by the late mid-game.

Damage magic isn't hugely powerful in this game so you'll find that you use the buffs and incapacitating spells more often in the latter parts of the game. Spells like Nuclear Blast and Tsunami are nice when they work but I still find Freeze All, Armormelt and Toxic Cloud to be among the best spells in the game.

You also have to remember that by the end of the game 6 melee characters will be dishing out a lot of damage each round without the help of spells. That should compensate for a lack of damage causing magic.

xfactor

Yes, the keyword being "decent". You will NOT have spellcasting experts by any means, but you will be able to functionally cast most low-mid level spells to moderate power levels fairly reliably with practice at their base INT/PIE levels. Don't be worried about it, though: you'll have much more powerful combatants as a result of that sacrifice, and if you do ever want to explore Magic more fully with dedicated spellcasters, there's always next game. (Plus there's a couple of NPC casters you can pick up to experiment with if you want.)

As for the "haste" comments and relation to development of SPD: That's absolutely correct but Farl's party does not include a Bard, Bishop, or Psionic. His only possible haste caster is the Dwarf Monk, who will probably not be doing so reliably enough to design everyone's attribute plans around. That being said, with my own Wiz8 parties every time I've played so far I have had a Bard, Bishop, and/or Psionic (usually both a Bard and Bishop in fact), and I usually do de-emphasize SPD for my characters as a result.

Even in Farl's party, you really only need a couple of characters to be fast, for minimal casting purposes. (Basically one for late-game Element Shield and one for late-game Soul Shield.) In fact, with so much melee power, for his party it will actually be an advantage for most characters to not be so fast: that increases the likelihood that they will be able to move a little at the beginning of combat to get into close combat range and still attack afterwards instead of losing combat actions.

Flat-out false. You obviously haven't tried it yourself. Search around the forum and you'll find plenty of evidence disputing this. The Martial Arts using Monk is, in fact, the 3rd most powerful melee combat damage-dealer in Wiz8, behind only the backstabbing Rogue (#2) and the berserking Fighter (#1). What makes the Monk's Martial Arts so nasty, above and beyond the Monk's %25 class bonus, is that secondary attacks are exactly as powerful as primary attacks with Martial Arts. (You get the same mix of kicks & punches from both the primary and secondary attacks.) You also don't need to raise the Dual Wield skill to get secondary attacks with Martial Arts, which every other combat class has to contend with to power up its secondary attacks.

That being said, the staff is still not a bad choice for a Monk, particularly due to the extended reach ability. Also, if you prefer critical hits over raw damage, the Staff of Doom is fantastic for any character, including the Monk. The Zatoichi Bo gives you the flexibility of auto-switching to either barehand for martial arts or a sling for ranged (since it's not cursed like the Staff of Doom), but its lower instant kill stat and moderate damage means that it's worse than both: pick the Staff of Doom for better criticals, and Martial Arts for better damage. Plus, the Staff of Doom is available much earlier in the game than the Zatoichi Bo, although both are guaranteed finds.

The speed is not neccessarily for going first ( which is also nice ). It is for the extra attacks.

Strength + speed are the primary attributes for a melee party hands down, the strength provides damage + to hit and penetration and the speed provides the attacks.

So your saying it can beat someone with the light sword ( 5 - 40 damage and 10% kill ) or excalibur or even the zotaichi bo?

Even if you could match the damage you can't match the effects or % to kill.

Maybe the site I was looking at is wrong, but I understand you only gain 8.5 ( 10.6 for monk ) damage with maxed unarmed skill. I don't see how that beats any halfway decent weapon.

Of course, if you want to dual weild, then the monk doesn't have many choices, but I still say the staff of doom or zoitachi bo would be better then dual wielding.

[ 06-16-2005, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: TinyMage ]

As someone who has played a couple of monks, I wanted to throw my two cents in...

My first party had 6 characters, including a Dwarf Fighter, Dracon Samarai, Human Monk, Hobbit Bard, Mook Ranger, and Fiary bishop. The Monk used martial arts only and had twice the kills of the next closest character, the fighter.

By the mid 20 levels, the fighter and the bard, started catching up. The fighter used either excaliber or ivory blade (depending on if he had a shield or not) and the bard wielded Fang. At this point what the fighter could do was scary....almost 1000pts of damage/rd.

However, in the early game it was all the monk. At level 6 or 7 he was already getting up to 6 swings per round (3 attacks, 2 swings/attack, averaging about 12 pts/hit and rarely missing. By level 12 he was consistantly doing 200 pts/round (killing nightmares single handedly.

I really think the difference is in number of attacks...maybe you see more damage with a weapon, but when you are getting twice or three times as many attacts it just doesn't matter.

Right now I am playing a duet with a Human Monk and a Felpurr Ninja (I know, I shouldn't gone with a fairy ninja but I didn't have the patients to get them through the early game). The Monk is a machine when compared to the Ninja (currently weilding two Nunchuka). They are at level 10 now and I am on my way to the Umpani base camp after spending time in and around Arnika getting experience and trying to get as many spell books as possible.

Anyway, that is my experience.

Monks, don't leave the beach without one....

Well, all this discussion made me curious that I had missed something when I had a martial arts monk in my party.

So I decided to test it out. I made a game with 1 monk, 1 samurai and 1 priest ( for healing ) on normal difficulty. The test was to see just how good a martial arts monk is vs a sword weilding samurai in the beginning - mid game. Since they both have critical strike I thought this was a good comparison.

Both characters were human, and basically had the same stats. The monks stats were 54, 50, 50, 45, 57, 64, 55 ( strength to senses ). The samurais stats were 56, 55, 45, 50, 62, 62, 45.

For both I put 3 in strength and speed at every level up.

For the samurai I put 3 in dual weapons, close combat and swords every level.

For the monk I put 3 in martial arts, close combat and critical strike every level.

When I started in the monastery they both did about the same amount of damage. As I got near Arnika the monk was inching ahead of the samurai.

However, once I got to arnika and gave the samurai bloodlust, the samurai quickly made the monk look inferior. He was regularly doing 30+ damage while the monk was only doing 10. Also bloodlust gives an extra attack.

Both the monk and samurai were at 1 swing 1 attack ( not counting the extra swing from bloodlust ) at level 7 with 80 speed and about mid 30's in their skills ( not counting bonuses ).

I am not sure how the above author got 6 swings at level 7.

This is about the same as I remember it the last time I tried.

When does the monk become the "3rd most powerful melee combat damage-dealer" ????? What level? What stats?

Maybe I am doing something wrong but I don't see how.

Seems more likely the people that rate the unarmed monk higher aren't using their other characters properly.

At this rate I would go so far as to say the samurai could keep bloodlust the rest of the game and still outdamage the monk.

[ 06-16-2005, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: TinyMage ]

If the monk is only at 1 swing 1 attack, raise him a little more, or consider putting less in strength and more in dex.

Normally when i take a monk he is attacking at least 4 and sometimes 8 times a round while my samurai is still on 1 (+1 for bloodlust) and 1 off-hand (quite weak) per round. Plus the monk tends to have better chance to hit/penetrate.

The damage is vaguely comparable until the dex/spd/skill extra swings/attacks start to come in, when the monk just pulls away because he gets them with both hands and the +1 swing of bloodlust goes from doubling attacks down to maybe 1/3 extra (with 3 swings base). Sam will get bigger hits when he connects and doesnt do 1-2-3 damage, but monk is dealing 10-20 damage 7-8 times a round at mid level.

I think GMK is correct about DEX. I always concentrate on DEX and STR for my MONK (actually most of my Melee fighters). DEX does seem to be the most important atribute for a Monk.

Also, the Monks martial arts skill seems to raise much faster than other combat skills, probably because of all the extra attacks. My Monk/Ninja Duo are at level 12 and 11 now. The Monks martial arts skill is at 105 (after the 25% bonus). The Ninja is duel welding Nunchuka but only has a mace/flail and duel weapon skill in the mid 40's.

That being said, I do think a well developed fighter type with an elite weapon eventually is as good or better than the unarmeed Monk. But early to mid game the Monk is hard to beat.

Wouldnt the samurai get extra swings too?

I would really like to know the stats of your samuria GMK. How is the monk at so many attacks and your samurai is still at 1?

If you guys really think martial arts is so great why not just build a fighter and switch to a monk / ninja for a level and powertrain MA to 100.

Then switch back to a fighter and beserk.

Now THAT would beat a samurai with bloodlust.

But the question still remains, would that fighter have been better off with the light sword + diamond eyes?

Both Dexterity and Speed provide extra attacks, and any combatant wants both. The question is which to max first. For combatants the answer, IMHO, is almost always Dexterity, because its secondary benefits (improved melee and ranged chance to hit & penetrate) are better than Speed's (improved initiative). Then add in the fact that Speed is far easier to buff than Dexterity.

So your saying it can beat someone with the light sword ( 5 - 40 damage and 10% kill ) or excalibur or even the zotaichi bo?

Even if you could match the damage you can't match the effects or % to kill.
</font>[/QUOTE]The above comparison is for combat performance at high levels on Ascension Peak with all the best items available to the various classes. So yes, that is also MA Monk > Cane of Corpus Faerie Ninja. Say 100 STR/DEX/SPD, with haste as necessary for all characters that need it, but it's really the STR and Martial Arts skills that matter.
There's a lot of factors that combine to make the Monk so effective:

- Effortless, fully effective dual wield: The MA monk will be at least 2/3 / 2/3 on Ascension Peak, for an average of 8 and max of 12 martial arts attacks per round. (I've never seen 3/3 / 3/3 myself, since I've never hit 125% on Martial Arts with my Monks, but since I've seen 3/3 for a Valkyrie and Samurai with 125% in their weapon skills that should be possible for a Monk also, which would be an average of 12 and max of 18 attacks per round!) And remember, those "secondary" attacks for a Monk are exactly as powerful as their primary attacks.

- Relative weakness of all other combatant's secondary weapons: Yes, the Light Sword and Cane of Corpus are incredible, and the Muramasa Blade is nice too, but the best secondary weapons (Wakizashi +1, Rod of Sprites) are far worse. The notable exceptions are the Thieves Dagger and Diamond Eyes, which help the Rogue and Fighter perform better in combination with their special combat abilities.

- Relative weakness of two-handed weapons: Excalibur, Zatoichi Bo, Faust Halberd, Dread Spear, Stun/Mindblast Rod, Giant Sword, and Staff of Doom all pale in comparison with the top one-handed weapons like the Light Sword and Cane of Corpus. The Staff of Doom is generally considered the best of that group with its 15% kill (same as Cane of Corpus and Muramasa Blade), and for raw damage the Giant Sword is good.

- The Monk gets status effects too: Monk's get up to 5% kill for 100% in Critical Strike (1% base + 1% for each 25 in Critical Strike is the formula I usually see), and Monks also get a chance to KO. I have no clue what the formula is for Monk KO chance, but at high levels it works pretty often. (Probably some combination of Martial Arts skill and strength score.)


I've never found any site that accurately lists martial arts damage; I go by my own experience and what I've read here and on other Wiz8 boards. If I saw it on Flamestryke's or Rick Rust's sites I'd believe it.

As you have discovered, Bloodlust is an absolutely INSANELY powerful weapon for the early-mid game. If you could give it to your Bishop, the Bishop would have the most kills. It's that good. Which is too bad, because it basically makes the Bushido Blade obsolete. I typically don't replace it until I get Fang, and even Fang is only a little bit better than Bloodlust for most characters that can use both. And if you think Bloodlust is great on your Samurai, try it on a Rogue... though in my parties it's usually the Bard that gets it (using songs for ranged combat as needed).

*chuckle* I like to think I can build a Wiz8 combat character pretty decently, though I'm not as persistent at reloading for perfect equipment as some. (I do make an exception for the Light Sword.) But again, I'm not making any of this up: I'm just regurgitating what I've read on this and other boards, adding in my own experience which matches up. I've never done any actual damage "testing" myself, but I always build my hybrids (and Bards) for combat and the Martial Arts Monk (when I use one) always outperforms them by the end.

Not to say I haven't made mistakes. My first Fighter, despite being a basic Lizardman Fighter, was awful: he tried to learn too many different weapons (Dagger, Sword, Mace, Dual Wield, Bow/Xbow) and hence was always behind other characters on weapon skills. My first Monk, though, was even worse: she was a Faerie with maxed INT and SPD first to try to get good spellcasting over good melee. It worked to an extent, but delaying STR so long meant that she barely broke 50 STR towards the end of the game.

Don't forget when doing your own comparisons to watch for the initiative effect. The Light Sword and Bloodlust have incredibly high initiative bonuses, so if you often fight small or spread-out groups, your Monk may not have anything left to fight after your high-initiative sword-wielder gets to go first. Attribute distribution can have the same effect to a lesser extent.

Anyway, have fun all, Monks or not!

Even if that worked, you'd lose the Monk's +25% to Martial Arts and probably the Monk KO ability. (Though the Fighter has innate KO ability also.) The +25% alone would seriously hurt since that's key to the Monk martial arts damage as well as number of attacks. It would be worth trying though just for amusement value... I'm not sure if an ex-Monk (or ex-Ninja) would even be allowed to attack barehand using Martial Arts. Easy to tell: if you only get punches and never kicks, you're not using Martial Arts.

Again, it seems your just guessing on this stuff.

Got any hard statistics you could tell me?

I did a test, your theories didnt seem to work. The monk was hardly better then a samurai in the beginning and I really doubt he could compete with the later weapons.

If I am doing something wrong just tell me what it is.

The -25% to martial arts would reduce the fighters damage by how much?

Also, secondary attacks are NOT as good as primary attacks for monk.

He has a 50 / 50 chance of executing a punch or kick ( from what I can tell ). Punches are with 1% strength damage bonus ( above 50 ) and kicks are with 2% strength damage bonus ( above 50 ). You can check this on your character screen.

This is the same as a character with a secondary weapon.

Well I actually did another test myself using the character editor.

I made 5 characters, a fighter, 2 monks and 2 samurai's. I edited the fighter to level 50 with 100 in close combat and 100 in martial arts. One monk I made level 50 and one at level 20 and gave them both 100 in close combat, 100 in martial arts and 100 in staff. For the samurai's I made one level 50 and one level 20 and put 100 in swords and close combat and dual weapons and staff and wand.

I gave each character 50 strength ( so I could see the original damage easier ) and 100 in dex and speed.

The level 50 monk was at 3 / 3 and 2 / 3 for attacks and swings with his primary and secondary. His damage was 10-22 and 8-20. With the zotaichi bo he was 3 / 3 with 10-31 damage.

The level 20 monk was at 2 / 3 and 2 / 3. His damage was 10-22 and 8-20. With the zotaichi bo he was 2 / 3 with 10-31 damage.

The level 50 fighter ( unnarmed ) was at 3 / 3 and 2 / 3. His damage was 6-18 and 4-16.

The level 50 samurai with murumasa and enchanted wakazashi was at 3 / 3 and 2 / 3. His damage was 7-28 and 3-12. With the zotaichi bo he was 3 / 3 with 10-31 damage.

The level 20 samurai with murumasa and enchanted wakazashi was at 2 / 3 and 2 / 2. His damage was the same as the above. With the zotaichi bo he was 2 / 3 with 10-31 damage.

Based on the damage of the fighter vs the monk I estimate that the martial arts skill gives +.03 min damage for each point and +.14 max damage for each point. The strange thing is the min damage for the monk is higher then for the fighter for some reason ( counting the +25% bonus ) and it doesn't make mathematical sense. Maybe the best way to look at it is that the extra 25 adds 4 damage to the min and max damage ( although that doesnt quite make sense, but o well ). The damage is obviously not dependent on level.

The martial arts skill also seems to give around .1 initiative per point. The monk had +11 initiative and the fighter had +10, which is strange but the best estimate is .1 per point. This is more initiative then any weapon bonus, even light sword. So an unarmed monk could certainly be the fastest character.

However the chance to hit gets no bonus with martial arts, only with a weapon ( +6 with light sword ). So this may also be a factor.

So what this means is if you have the patience to powertrain martial arts early in the game you can have a really nice weapon that won't be beat at least untill bloodlust.

However later on the weapons will surpass it, since martial arts is capped at the same number of attacks ( 3 / 3 and 2 / 3 ).

The monk does appear to get extra attacks a bit sooner but not by the amount I expected.

*EDIT I forgot to add that the damage resistance for the level 50 monk and level 20 monk both said 15%, which is too bad, seems that is the max from the monk class*

[ 06-17-2005, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: TinyMage ]

There are two main reasons as far as i can tell that the samurai gets less attacks.

Firstly i have to build strength/dex (monk goes dex speed early, strength later) so he can actually hit anything with low dual-wield skill in early/midgame (expert ironman).

Secondly dual wielding with less than 100% skill reduces the number of attacks/swings (or at least increases the stat/skill level required to get extra ones).

I think its more a case of samurai is late getting his extra attacks. My sword/shield fighter this game got his extra swings and attacks slightly earlier than the monk, but the samurai was quite a bit later (2-3 levels iirc, the distance from the start of trynton to the bluff anyway)

2 characters from my current party, no skill training, just played them as they played. Both major in combat, with a little side spellcasting. Both have a little in expert skills, but not a huge amount.

Samurai (lvl 21, IB, Ench Waki)
Str 100
Dex 100
Spd 100
Sen 35
Sword 79(98)
Combat 62
Dual 69

AR----45-----38
Dam---14-62---5-18
Att---2/2----2/2


Monk (21, MA)

Str 90
Dex 100
Spd 100
Sen 55
MA 94(117)
combat 88

AR----44----42
Dam---14-36---8-25
Att---2/3----2/3


Comparable attack rating, so just look at the numbers. Monk deals 2/3 the damage but has 3/2 the swings with primary, so roughly equal, and with secondary has 3/2 the damage and 3/2 the swings and more AR.

Samurai gets lightning, monk gets KO. Personally i prefer KO, but this is mainly a damage analysis.

And dont ask me why the monk has higher skills. Perhaps i just use samurai combat magic a lttle more, or perhaps its due to stats or the extra monk swings.


Edit in response to a new post: The fact that the monk was hitting around 6 times per round while my samurai was still only getting 1/1 +1 with bloodlust and 1/1 with his ench wakizashi suprised me enough that i remember it well. I think its a step thing. Samurai has 1.4/1.4 and monk has 1.6/1.6 or whatever, so it just looks like a lot more, with the rounding. Since the samurai does gain the extra stuff before too long.

[ 06-17-2005, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: GMK ]

I think in terms of damage per hit a Monk will never get close to someone using the Muramasa/CoC/Fang etc. However, the real payoff comes when you consider that Monks will get more attacks sooner and hit more often than someone dual weilding because they suffer no penalties but get all the benefits of dual weilding.

There are many additional benefits gained because of this factor. More attacks (due to not needing dual weild) means more practiceor a Monk which increases their MA skill quicker, as well as increasing their Close Combat and Critical skills quicker. More attacks also means more chance to utilise the critical and KO chances.

Comparing any early-mid game performance with a character using Bloodlust is a but pointless as well. Bloodlust is a massively powerful weapon. IMO, it shouldn't be available so easily so early in the game it's so good. A MA Monk will outshine any combat character until you start picking up some of the really good weapons towards the mid-end game. Even then, they'll hold their own in terms of pure consistency.

xfactor