I have had bad development with Sams in the past but this one is starting to outshine all the rest of the party. Here are his stats:

Lev 10
Str = 75
Int = 60
Pie = 35
Vit = 60
Dex = 64
Spd = 69
Sen = 51

Doesn't look special does it?

With Samurais maybe you have to make them good all-around.

He has many more kills than the Bard and Valkyrie (the Alchemist is minimal on kills, 28 vs. 150 for the Sam, but he's getting better). The Bard and Valkyrie are behind by 20 or more, I thought they would outshine him in battle.

Anyway, the Sam must have done something right although the stats don't show it. He hits every time and is now doing 40-50 damage per turn, and got an extra strike in. It seems counter-intuitive to me. The stats aren't that great. Any similar experiences with a Samurai?

I have never had any luck with Samurai. No matter what, they've never been much better than average in any of my games. That includes times when I went in and manually "adjusted" stats and skills. Even that didn't help. I don't think I ever saw more than one lightning strike in a whole game.

You seem to be having some good luck with your guy. Hang on to him!

<center>Nightowl2</center>

I'm running a sam with somewhat similiar stats, I've been taking turns building up strength, dex, speed and senses and I have noticed a vast improvement with this one than I have previous Sammy's I've run. Perhaps balancing out a Sam's stats is better than working just two till maxed? Who knows? all I know is this Sammy seems to be so much better than others I've run.

wow, zig, you know this topic is one i'd love to know the answer to!

what else can you tell us about him? race? current weapon? how about skill development... is he casting? is he doing dual sword or sword and shield... or 2h sword? have you done any training?

it just may be that developing the attributes in a balanced fashion is what's needed, but i'd like to know more so i can learn from the whole approach.

cheers [img]smile.gif[/img]

Regarding Lightning Strike: If your Carry is anything but white, it won't happen. And in the Sam's personal inventory, the lighter your load, the more you get.
If i'm running a Sam, i also run a haster. Sometimes i've run a Bard-to-Sam, in which case i raise Spd. Otherwise, i go Str 3/Vit 1/Dex 2 until Dex reaches 80, then Str is usually maxxed about that level, and it goes to Vit 2/Dex 2/ Sen 2. Haste covers Spd. My Sam's get a noticable amount of Lightnings; my latest got her first one on King Crab, got one on Gregor, and in just about all the longer battles had one. I also wear Ankh of Dex and Ankh of Speed with a Sam.

(edit) Forgot something: the weight of your weapon and its Initiative have something to do with lightning strikes, too.

[ 11-15-2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Scatter ]

Will let you know more stats on the Samarai. Not tonight. He has good sword and combat skills. Using the Bloodlust and the plain wakasashi. Getting lots of Tiger Strikes recently, OK, maybe every other battle. Best I have seen in a while, he is lev 11 now. I have had some Sams that got maybe one TS per game. I've had about 5 this game. Go figure.

OK, I wasn't planning on doing this:

Sam lev 11 Dracon

Str = 77
Int - 65
Pie = 35
Vit = 60
Dex = 67
Spd = 70
Sen = 51

Close combat = 65
Dual = 53
Critical = 48
Sword = 82 with bonus

Getting IK and TS.

I don't know what the magic combination is. Maybe that is why the Samurai is so mysterious?? And hard to develop?

atlus 7's work on samurais preaches the wisdom of balance. in that case, he was referring to balancing magic against melee, but perhaps the concept extends further into stats.

the other thread about maxing stats vs. building many stats made me think - perhaps maxing stats works best only when you level quickly and a) build their few skills quickly and b) level fast enough that extra points can be put into other stats before too long.

i've wanted to try building a straight fighter putting 2pts per level into strength, and 1pt each into the other 4 physical stats, just to compare, but havent gotten around to it...

I thought I would use this thread to ask my own questions about my Samurai.

I do not have his stats in front of me, but here is about what they are.

Felpurr Samurai LVL 9 (These are all approximate)

STR 53
INT 40
PIE 30
VIT 50
DEX 86
SPD 90
SEN 53

Sword 60 before bonus
Close Combat 55
Dual Weapon 55

He is using Bloodlust and a normal Wakizashi (sp?). Anyway, he is pretty good, and attacks around 6-8 times per turn. However, he misses like crazy. Out of the 6-8 attacks he lands maybe 2-3 at most.

When he does hit, he does great damage with Bloodlust. He seems to hit more often with the Wakizashi than with Bloodlust. Is there something about Bloodlust that causes misses more often? Or is his SEN or STR not high enough?

I was trying to hit 100 on DEX and SPD, but I am starting to think that is not as important.

Any advice is appreciated!

oh, hermit boy, if only wiz 8 was that simple! i'll tell you what i know "in principle", but with the caveat that, on a practical level, i've yet to develop a samurai i love...

1) bloodlust causes the attacker to always attack in beserk mode. while this can add swings and damage, it reduces your chance to hit (due to being wild, i suppose).

with a fighter or rogue you hardly notice it. but hybrids in particular show up this weakness a bit more. there are for two reasons for this.

1a) hybrids start with their attribute points spread out across more stats. notably they have minimums in intelligence or piety, and fewer bonus points. this means they learn skills slower (so have less skill at any point in the game compared to a similarly developed fighter or rogue) AND their attributes arent high enough to compensate for their lower skills. (see point 2 below)

1b) hybrids spread their actions and learning across more skills. when you cast spells in combat, you dont have a chance to learn a point in sword, or close combat, or dual weapons, or critical strike. similarly, when you level up, there's a lot more places that need attention! so, again, their skill development is hampered.

and this is without even mentioning the slower level ups!

2) raw attributes can compensate for low skills. strength, dex, and senses all add to a character's chances to do damage, regardless of weapon (or academic) skill. the largest bonuses come from dex, which adds to your chances to hit and penetrate. strength and senses offer similar bonuses, but they operate slightly differently: senses increases the chances to hit, strength increases the chance to penetrate.

as noted in (1a) above, hybrids have their skills spread across a wide range of stats. as such, they will have less in str, dex, and senses compared to pure melee'rs.

so what does this all mean?

well, regarding development, i would suggest keep pumping dex, first and foremost. and now that you have speed at 90, start putting points into str or senses instead with the other 3 level up points. speed at 90 gives you the +2 to AC, which is the most you'll get there, and getting the benefits of other attributes would seem more prudent compared to opening up snake speed.

personally, i'd recommend strength, for two reasons. the first is that it adds to damage and stamina as well. the more swings you get, the more stamina you need, and since you're primary attack is melee (sword), strength adds a damage multiplier that's really valuable to have.

the second reason is related to my second recommendation regarding weapon. i'd go ahead and keep the bloodlust, but consider putting down the wakizashi for a couple of levels. by going back to one-handed, you'll remove the dual-weapons penalty, which will help your missing problems. this mitigates the need to boost to-hit via building senses.

but dont get me wrong - long-term, you'll want to get that second sword re-equipped. just wait a couple levels (say around 11 or 12), when your skills will be much better, before you put it back on. in the meantime, consider dropping 3 pts at each level up into dual weapons, sword, and close combat.

whew, that's a bit more than i planned to write... sounds good in theory, i wonder why i've never been able to put it in practice?! [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img]

good luck! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-20-2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: sultan ]

Sultan has some good advice. My Sam is now instant killing or tiger striking at 6x every battle, or at least the longer ones. Makes you appreciate what they can do. He has mmore kills than the Valk or Bard by about 100 or so. I'm not saying he's a killing machine like a fighter or even a rogue, but it sure is impressive to see those 6 strikes for 20-30 in a row! Bear in mind most Samurais never get developed right. And there is a mystery there.

Here are his current stats:

Using Bushido Blade and Wakasashi
"Zax", lev 13 Dracon
Str = 83
Int = 65
Pie = 35
Vit = 60
Dex = 73
Spd = 80
Sen = 51

Close combat = 73
Dual weap = 66
Crit = 63
Sword = 91

Still not impressive looking in numbers.

I think you need a certain lev of Str, Dex and Speed. I have no idea what is the magic combination that can make them so deadly.

[first post]

this makes me think too because, currently i am playing solo fairy/ninja

right now im three levels away from the 18th level of bishop, but this thread makes me think if i want to switch back to ninja and abuse the CoC or should i jus switch to samurai and work on the lightning strikes and all, because i like to gamble on all those chances of more critical strikes.

any advice, please?

thanks

Well, not with a Faerie!!! Too much stuff you can't use that makes a Sam worth having. And, if you already have any Ninja levels they'll have been wasted as far as Caster level is concerned. In fact, for a Solo, i'd rather be a Ninja even if not a Faerie--Quicksand and Death Cloud power will start to go up again once you get to 5 Ninja levels, and for me those are very important to crank up as high as you can, so even with the Cane (which you can use only as a Ninja), you don't have to kill maybe half your opponents physically. Lightning Strikes don't add to your crit chance as much as the Ninja's Crit Bonus, anyway.

(Edit) PS-welcome aBoard!

[ 11-21-2003, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Scatter ]

Welcome to the boards grimstyle!

If I were playing a character like your faerie I would definitely make them a ninja in one part for stealth, and the other part for the cane, and also a faerie cannot use too many samurai items.

Sultan and Ziggurat, thanks for the advice. That makes sense.

I will definately drop the second hand weapon. I only hit with it once per turn, and it usually does less than 5 damage anyway.

Then start pumping STR. He does have frequent Stamina problems so that will help a lot.

Lightning Strikes/Critical Strikes

One reason I enjoy the Samurai is because there is so much mystery about them. For this discussion, I assume we are defining Lightning Strike as when you get a combat message that says "Lightning Strike," not just when you get multiple swings per attack.

On the VN Board some players kept track of Lightning Strike and tried to figure out what caused it. Their conclusion was LOW initiative. I've noticed this in my games as I get far more Lightning Strikes at the beginning of the game when iniative is low. I keep all of my characters in the white almost all the time. As soon as we get into the blue, we sell off stuff. I also equip my Samurai with light armor (featherweight, none of that heavy Samurai stuff) and don't notice many Lightning Strikes late in the game.

But I've given up trying to figure out Lighning Strike because it's the Critical Strikes I care about. If you are getting 15% criticals with Muramasa plus 4% from your 100 skill in Critical Strike, this should give you a critical kill almost every 5 hits of the sword! I don't think I get quite that many, but that is because there are so many other things at work.

So I would think the key to building an effective sword-wielding Samurai is to maximize your chances of criticals by increasing the number of hits with your swords. My goal is to get my Samurai up to 3 swings per attack and three attacks per round (the last attack is never more than one or two swings, though), so i can get 7-8 swings per round by the end game. I really should take the time to be more scientific about this, but I think I get the most swings per round when close combat and dexterity are both 100, speed and strength are high, and stamina is always kept high through frequent casting of Rest All. But I wonder about lots of other possibilities, too, like whether Strength or Senses has any direct affect on criticals. I seem to get criticals more often on low level enemies and after I cast Armormelt, so I believe that there is lots involved in this. Too much for my poor brain to think about on a Friday afternoon.

It does sound like a reasonable approach to use only one sword and not face the penalty for dual weapons in order to maximize your hits, but I have never tried this. Even if the Enchanted Wakizashi only gives a 1 in 20 chance of a critical (with bonus from critical strike skill), I want that chance. I don't mind building the dual weapon skill, especially since we get the 25% bonus in sword.

For development, I dump skill points into close combat, dual weapons, sword, and wizardry (and eventually snakespeed). I dump attribute points into Dexterity and Speed first, then Strength and Senses (Senses because she learns to use a crossbow on her own).

My Felpurr Samurai always trails my Dracon Fighter in kills, but that's because she is my Element Shield caster and serves to weaken enemies with spells that damage many before we move in for the kill.

From the time we get the Bushido Blade/Enchanted Wakizashi, I am very pleased with my Samurai. Up till then, she is a little slow, but what a fun character to play! Almost as much fun as the Bard!

DraconFighter - if that theory is correct, I shouldn't boost senses or speed beyond current numbers if I want to max Tiger Strike. I think I'll work on strength and maybe dex for awhile and see if the frequency of TS changes. I think you need a certain amount of speed, the frequency seemed to pick up when I gave him an Amulet of Speed. I wonder if Snake Speed nullifies TS? Anyone get Tiger Strikes while having Snake Speed?

Bumped for Mr Creosote, and to answer Ziggurat's hanging question, YES, you get LS's with Snakespeed. And no, high initiative doesn't slow them down; there must have been another factor involved with the char, like a change in weapon or load.

My Felpurr Sam (max dex, spd) with 2 str ankhs had no problem getting lightning strikes in full sam armor, until the party started getting weighed down and encounter significally high (than themselves) monsters.

Yah, and level mismatch reduces Crits, too. I always dress my Sams as light as i can and survive, which is always easier if you take the stealth-level. I don't make them carry much, either. If you geve more stuff to other chars and keep the party pack light, you can get a lot of stuff and still keep your Sam under 1/3.

I have a Dracon Samurai- 18th Level now and have not had significant problems with him. I have seen a handful of LS but they are certainly not common. I do have the 'typical' Sam armor on him, though. He kills constantly! For much of the time I had him with Bloodlust and Wak- Gotta love 2 attacks/3 swings per attack at double damage from Beserk! Now he has the Light Sword and Ench. Wak and gets Crits at least 1 to 2 times in all battles that last more than 2 or 3 rounds. I think the LS has a very high initiative and he has gotten like 1 LS since he started with it- Hmm, I am thinking of trading the LS back to my fighter and giving Fang to my Sam? Either way, my current party is death incarnate to most monsters. It is not unusual for RFS (with Staff of Doom) my FN (with COC) and my Sam above to ALL get crits in the same fight. The problem usually is that there are not enough enemies in melee range for them all to kill!
In general, my Sam has been a solid member, despite the lack of many Lightning Strikes.
Just FYI on stats, I have maxed Dex and Spd first, now getting close on Str and Sen. Then on to Vit, I guess. My goal with this Sam (and W6 and W7 too) is to get him to natural 3 attacks 3 swings with both Primary and Secondary weapons. Getting close to that with this one. Plus I think he's cool with the Scottish accent!

I really think Crits in W8 are screwed. In my experience its nonsensical and almost totally governed by the Weapon crit %.

The largest number of crits I ever got was on a Bishop who had no development in Close or Staff and had not been quipped with a weapon at all. But when I got the SoD and no-one suitable to use itw ith I dumped it on her. She crit'd like crazy, FAR moe than any Sam or Fn that I ever developed and in fact was so deadly I started using her for melee rather than casting spells!
Obviously some sort of code overrun effect was happening. But I also have seen the opposite with a FN with near 100 in Crit and with CoC and hardly ever criting.

I know I am prolly talking garbage but I do believe there is a fault somewhere in the game code in calculating the actual crit, and as a previous poster mentioned a Sam with Murasma and 100% crit should be criting once every 5 strikes and I'll lay good money that none ever does!

higher level mobs have crit resistance. It's invisible, but some bosses are nearly critproof.