...even on novice difficulty, my party frequently gets their asses handed to them on a silver plate. Granted, I'm on my first run through this game, but I'm no newbie to RPGs, and I'm using every tactic I can come up with. My party is solidly built, with two frontline warriors (Lizardman Fighter and Dracon Samurai), two ranged warriors (Felpurr Ranger, who can use polearms to melee from the second rank as well, and Mook Gadgeteer), and two spellcasters (Rawulf Priest and Faerie Bishop). I take full advantage of the latter two characters' protective spells, I use terrain to my advantage whenever possible so that only the front rankers are exposed to the attacks of two or three monsters, I soften the enemy up with ranged attacks and spells before we engage in melee... but the monsters the game sends after me just seem too tough. Only half an hour ago, my party, currently averaging level 8 and on the Arnika-Trynton Road, was confronted by 7 Shrieker Bats (level 8 or 9 I believe), 5 Juggernauts (level 11 behemoths) and 3 whatsit Weeds, can't remember their level but it can't have been lower than 8. I used every abovementioned tactic, found a perfect nook in the cliffs beside the road to fight them from, and granted, most of the bats went down like flies and their screams did nothing, but those weeds continually managed to nauseate my entire party, causing them to miss constantly. Every disabling spell I cast at them fizzled or had no effect, I could't target them with missiles because they were hiding behind the Juggernauts and only one of the brutes tore up my frontliners and was about do the same with my weaker characters when I gave up and quit the game. And this is not the first time something like this has happened.

Now, finally, my question to you: why? Is there something wrong with my tactics or my party build (if so, what), is my party's level too low for this specific area, or am I just plain unlucky in what the game threw at me so far?

Thanks for reading through this rather lengthy rant, by the way.

The game's hard like that sometimes. But I think when you reload there's one tactic you might want to explore -- run around them! There will be Juggernauts aplenty later when you're stronger and the fight will go differently for you.

If you reload and keep trying the fight, you have to hope for a few lucky breaks (maybe you disable a few of the beasts (sleep? paralyze?) and cut them up while they're defense-impaired? But in my experience (especially in the parts of the game where you are using the roads), these fights go bad no matter what you try -- the timing just isn't right.

[ 11-10-2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Solomon ]

Hey J'aran... I'm right with you man.

I don't understand it at all. I asked the same question in another topic (look for Party of Four... Comes to an End) and I really didn't get the answer I WAS LOOKING FOR. Some people say RUN, others say FIGHT, but I say CROSS YOUR LITTLE FINGERS. But hey, I know how you feel, but thats my own advice (just get lucky).

[ 11-10-2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

Try approaching them bit by bit, and then you might only encounter one group at a time.

I once found a position just behind Bela already on the peak, where monsters spawned not far away but they could not see me, but did not go away. I tried sleeping but only got more of them each time, and whenever I moved all of them attacked me, and in the end I had to disband that party because they just couldn't fight there way out of 40 monsters who were all a higher level than them.

Good to hear that it's not just me. Shared pain is half pain, as we say here in the Low Countries. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Guess I'll have to sneak my way around the tougher hordes then.

And dplax - in the particular situation I described all those things were in one large group, if I alert one I alert them all. Well, all except two of the bats who came from a different direction. But keeping those apart from the large group won't make much of a difference. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If you wait for some time they might still mov away from each other, but if you are realy in a problem then just go behind the deserted house and there you can sleep safely.

J'aran, enjoy as long as you can ;) For later in the game, just the opposite thing will happen: Even on Expert, not even the final fight needs lots of thought or strategy. This is one of the weaknesses of the game, it just finishes to early (both to early in time and to early in the life of your party...)

Cheers
Philipp

J'aran you might find it easier going with a Fighter and a Rogue for your two frontliners. The Samurai and Lord take a while to come into their own and if not developed properly they will (pardon the language) suck all through the game lol

The Fighter and Rogue are the two best melee'ers and for someone playing the game for the very first time, the two can make things a bit easier for you. I know how you feel, when I first began playing, I ran into similiar circumstances as you describe many many times and I in fact ended up quitting and not playing the game for a good 6 months. I wish I had known about the forums back then I could have gotten some advice and tips and continued playing.

As far as the juggernauts, I hate those things! My current party is level 18 and I run into them all the time, although they are not so tough now that my party is stronger, I still can't stand the buggers! lol A party below level 10 is going to find the juggernauts really difficult (in my opinion anyway) so if at all possible run away from them, if that isn't possible try running to a niche in a hillside where only one or two can get to you at a time. If none of that works try reloading or quitting the game and restarting from a previous save. Sometimes you'll get different monsters or sometimes run into no monsters at all.

Yes, as the old joke goes, "sometimes the bull wins."

I'm fooling around (i.e. not intending to finish) with a party of four (Lord-Bard-Ranger-Mage) and we had a difficult time of it on the Arnika Rd (both times, from and back to the Monastery). In Arnkia we can kill anything that moves.

One thing that may help is to save (not quick save, but save entire games with different names). If you get stuck somewhere, go back to your save and start again. Maybe the monster spawn will be better for you. For example, I always save just before leaving the Monastery (before you click on the check mark to leave).

No doubt the combat will be difficult at times, but I predict that eventually both you and your party will be better at this and will find some areas so unchallenging that you kick it up a notch from novice to normal. If I can do it, anybody can do it (expert scares me - I don't go there).

Pyrates, you're right on the money. As much as I hated getting my head handed to me in some of the areas of the game, I liked having to work through what needed to be done to avoid the Reaper. I was disappointed when I reached the point in the game where I knew that _wasn't_ going to happen.

I can only wonder what the designers had in mind for that later part of the game...that's where the breakdown in the development/distribution process really shows.

starfire has a great point about the fighter and rogue, as opposed to lord or samurai.

there is another thread discussing good parties to start with. part of the problem is how does one (ie you) trade off learning about the game against powering through and winning?

wiz 8 is complex, and some stretches can be awfully cruel, where more than little luck is needed (the arnika road around level 6-8 may be the worst for that in all the game). having said that, the more you know about the game, the easier it will be.

so one way to look at your current party is as a learning experience. learning about wiz 8 combat tactics (terrain, weapons, spells, party formation, etc.), learning about strategic approaches to character development, and learning how the different characters work together as a party.

if, on the other hand, you want to have an easier run through, a party composed of easier to develop classes (eg fighter, fighter, rogue, ranger, priest, mage) will have a better time of it.

and, definitely, you arent alone! most, if not all of us, ran many (personally, that means dozens) of parties before we found one that we could take all the way through. and once you get the hang of the complexity and subtlety, you'll find ANY party playable, then the fun really opens up :D

so stick with it! wiz 8 turns out to be one of the most rewarding game experiences around.

good luck - and if we can help, we'll sure try [img]smile.gif[/img]

Personally, I prefer a mage and a bishop in my parties. The mage gets a couple of good offensive spells early, plus missile shield and enchanted blade, both good buffs.

If you're having that much trouble on the road to Trynton, you may want to consider staying in Arnika to go up another level or two first. Be sure you get the X-Ray spell, which shows all monsters on the main map. Can be very helpful when you want to avoid fights.

<center>Nightowl2</center>

Nightowl2 has a point, you could stay in arnika a bit longer and level up a few levels, that is if you have an earlier save you can go back to. Sometimes just one or two levels can make a huge difference.

If you can get to a niche out of sight of the monsters and rest a full 8 hours they might wander away and you won't have to fight them. I've done that a few times, sometimes it worked and sometimes not.

If you do have an earlier save, you could try going to the northern wilderness first and then to trynton, sometimes the fights are easier in the northern wilderness. I rarely run into juggernauts on the northern wilderness road, but alway, always run into them on the arnika-trynton road lol

I'm not a powergamer by any means, but if you'd like things a bit easier perhaps you could try a party something like this:

Fighter
Rogue
Bard
Priest
Ranger or alchemist
Mage

These classes in my opinion are the easiest to develope and except the Ranger level up quite quickly. An alchemist will be able to mix high level potions and powders a lot more quickly then the Ranger will, which will give you access to great amounts of cash in which to equip your tanks with the best possible weapons and armour.

My very first party that I ascended with was as follows

Lizard Fighter
Hobbit Bard
Human Priest
Gnome Alchemist
Mook Psionic
Faerie Mage

Some might consider that a boring party, but it allowed me to finish the game a bit easier than if I had taken hybrids my first time through and I experienced much less frustration. As I've grown more experienced and learned how to develope the different classes properly I've been taking the hybrids instead of pure casters.

Hi J'aran,

I agree with the others, you need to build up levels first. My party usually reach this area at Lvl 10 or 11. At this point such a group is tough but you earn lots of experience for this fight.
That enemy combination is deadly for lower parties.
For that Juggernauts : I avoid them later each time I met a group.Not because I cannot win but they are so boring because you need too much time for too little rewards.
Bad luck also takes place here . I do not often meet monster 3 levels higher than my party ( I once had a similar problem in the monastery with slimes ).Let your bishop learn X-Ray so you can detect enemies early . That can help to avoid tough groups in the beginning.

Greeting

I'm amazed [img]graemlins/crazyeyes.gif[/img] you encountered creatures 3 levels higher than your party at novice. I though that was a *ahum* privilege reserved for the higher difficulties.

The encounter you describe is very tough. It is a combination of a number of different enemies complementing each other. The behemoths keep you occupied while the weeds disable you (nauseate). And this gives the behemoths the change to do a lot of damage (nauseated means lower armor). And running away is almost impossible because of the bats. Bad combination indeed.

If you are sure you can't beat them I suggest retreating to another zone (ie monastary) and hope that different groups will spawn on the road.
But first try all the tactics you can think of. Use all the potions, powders, artifact and spells, just to see what works.

I learned a lot from seemingly impossible battles.

Good hunting! :D

[ 11-11-2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Deejax ]

Hi Deejax,

I discovered the same problem in the monastery ( my level 9 party faced two lvl 12 flesheater slimes ).

Greetings

I'd say you are unlucky. Juggernauts are very rare at arnika road, even at higher levels. I have killed them with a level 8 party before, but only with a bard with unlimited insanity spell (which works quite well against them)

A small note to your party: i'd rather take bishop + mage instead of bishop + priest. You still have all protection spells, but two offensive casters. Makes a big difference when you have fireball and iceball with two characters at this stage.

Run away from them, and rest in a save spot (near the house, at the chest, or back in the monastary). After resting 3 times, the monster will have changed.

This is along the same lines as Starfire's quote...

I think a good party would be:

Dracon Fighter
Human Ninja/Samurai
Human Ranger
Mook Gadgeteer
Hobbit Bard
Elf Bishop

Front: Ninja/Samurai & Fighter
Outsides: Gadgeteer & Ranger
Middle: Bard & Bishop

WHY, DO YOU ASK???

Dracon Fighters get 60+ points!!! You can easily raise your STR and VIT 20 points (giving you , of course, more damage and more hit points). Plus they come with a little thing called DRACON BREATHE. Spends stamina, but can attack many monsters at once. That is just one "tank", the other is your call.

I always liked the Ninja or Samurai. Samurai can get a really good piece of armor in the begining (NOT GOING TO SAY HOW OR WHERE), but it does have 9 AC. Both; however, give you speed. Samurai have the LIGHTNING STRIKE ABILITY. Allowing them to strike many times. A Ninja is a little more complicated. It doesn't have very good armor, but you can think of it as a Rogue that uses his fists and has AUTO PENETRATE/CRITICAL THROWING. If you are not ready for either, try a Lord or Valk, but if it were me I would take the Samurai.

RANGERS are the key. A Ranger is pretty critical in my parties. Some people say that, "MOST HIDDEN ITEMS ARE NOT REALLY WORTH IT"; I say, "TO THE VICTOR GOES THE SPOILS." The AUTO SEARCH ABILITY is quite remarkable. I also like the bonus for ranged attack. I don't allow my Fighter to carry long ranged weapons. I have a Ranger (and a Gadgeteer and a Bard) to take care of that. Honestly, Rangers are the most needed professions in the game (IMO).

As for the Bard and Gadgeteer... Easy enough!!! There are GADGETS AND INSTRUMENTS in the game that YOU SHOULD NOT pass up. A Bard also helps you recouperate faster when you camp, (since if you camp to long the MONSTERS WILL REGENERATE) allowing you to camp for less time. Think about it!!! And if you ask me, every Bard I have ever had became my most versitle FIGHTER. I usually keep them in the middle so... a good RANGED WEAPON (like bows/crossbows or slings) would do just fine. Gadgeteers are just cool. They can create gadgets, merge items, have MODERN WEAPON BONUS, are very good at ranged attacks, etc. Along with the Ranger and the Bard, you got plenty of "COVER FIRE" for those "HARD TO REACH CREATURES" (so your Fighter/Lord/Valk/"Tank" can worry about the close ranged creatures; eg Juggernauts).

Why the Bishop? I just think it is easier to decide what type of magic you want to use. If you select Mage you get Wizardry. Alcemist = Alcemey. A Bishop gives you the choice. A Bishop is kind of like a Hybrid, without losing levels. They give you the choice of which field you want to study (magic realm) or you could just do them all. YEAH YEAH YEAH... I know that it takes forever to do that, but I LIKE THEM. I only like one spell caster. WHY??? I don't like the sound of of ONE SPELL backfiring, so why should I WANT TWO!!!

The bottom line is, "GO WITH WHAT IS EASIER FOR *YOU*." That party I suggested is my first party to go all of the way; in fact that party went twice (with a few more sidequests and a bit of tweeking). I you can, use RPCs. I know that you spread the EXP a little more but it does give you an advantage over bigger parties. As for the "COUTINOUS" BATTLES, I hope you last longer than I did, J'aran!!!

There you go...

EDIT: As for the Juggernauts being "RARE", Wereboar; it might just be me, but I RUN INTO THEM A LOT!!! I'm serious, A LOT!!!

[ 11-11-2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

agreed, asg - not only do i run into juggernauts a lot, but running into creatures 3 levels above me is downright common. and i rarely play expert!

I think that the main problem with juggernaut's is the high number of attacks they get in the early stages of the game when you encounter them. If they just had one attack each round they wouldn't be much harder than the rest of the monsters you encounter on the road, but this way I would consider them one of the strongest in those early stages, apart from fixed encounters of course.

Or how about when the Juggernauts come with Siges or Necromancers!!! Especially at a low level, your party is pretty much screwed.

yeah, juggernauts are a real pain if you are playing melee heavy. they have high damage resistance, get tons of swings, and come in large groups (so they can surround you if you arent careful).

BUT, a magic heavy party, that uses stacks (ie multiple casters) of damage spells, or layers restricting spells (eg toxic cloud, sleep, web, etc.), they are hardly more than a nuisance.

that's another great thing about the game - the variety of opponents you face really challenges, in different ways, the range of parties you can produce! :D

It's been a while since I played the game, but I'm pretty sure I've had the battle you've mentioned or worse and won it without losing anybody, on expert level (of course I probably had to save/reload a couple of times to do it). I don't remember what level the characters were.

As for there being anything wrong with your party, I don't know. I started a new party and I can't right-click to get mythology readings on monsters (at level 12). If you're level 8 and getting detailed mythologies (how else would you know juggernauts are LVL12?) then maybe you're mis-spending your skill and/or professional points (or it's easier to get mythologies on novice). My max mythology is up to 60 something.

As for tactics, don't fight fire with fire. Fight fire with water. And no I don't mean spell realms. Attack where the enemy is weak. But it's also possible there's no way you're going to win the battle with the particular characters and resources you have on hand. But it's a great feeling when you win an impossible battle. (Let me know if you want to know what specificly I would do in the situation.)

As for running away, I think your party moves at the speed of the slowest character. With a Lizardman, Mook and Rawulf in the party, I don't think you're going to get away most of the time.


I think somebody else said it above, but it seems to be true, once you survive Arnika Road, the game is easier. So hang in there.

Welcome to the boards babar!

Welcome aboard, babar! I agree about the speed limitation and running. Sometimes it is not an option. In my first game I ran into a queen ant and her minions. I tried to outrun them. Wrong! I lost that battle and had to reload after maybe 20 moves in the Swamp. Our stamina was near zero when she came in for the kill.

To get away from the more tenacious and speedy opponents once in Combat mode, you have to get out of sight. That's hard in open spaces like the Swamp--you have to get around a couple corners or get some rock formations between you. Then they'll break off and start retreating.

my my, wait till you get area attack spells, ur gonna love it when those horde of 10+ monsters are surrounding you.

I started a new game the other day and ran into some heavy problems today. I'd finished looting stuff in Arnika and went back to the monastary to use the circle key to get the special weapons (they aren't that great IMO). On my way back out I ran into a half dozen pestilant (IIRC) rats who diseased two of my characters. I got out of the monastary and tried to head back to Arnika for a cure. Along the way I ran into some crabs which took a few tries to beat, then some plants which took some more tries to beat.

Finally I got near the map edge, unfortunately guarding the way out were three bandits and two cultists (level 10 sorceresses). All my characters were level 8 and I had Vi with me. My only main spellcaster was a bishop (who'd changed from a psionicist at around level 4), I did have a gadgeteer with the lightning rod and jack in the box. There was no way I was going to beat these guys. I'd been avoiding resting to avoid permanant losses from disease. Even if I was fully healed I didn't have elemental shield or magic screen and those cultists kept casting either summon elemental, freeze flesh or fireball. They alone would be nearly unbeatable let alone the three bandits with them. I ended up using a scroll of magic screen I happened to have and after a few tries managed to run past them without getting killed. Especially annoying is that I did try having my bishop cast silence on the cultists but it failed completely.

Hi Holywhippet,

if your mages can't cast healing spells like cure disease or others, IMO it is sometimes useful to spend some money in arnika for the special healing potions.
Lord Braffit sells them and there is a potion of cure disease in the crypt.

Greetings

I have some cure disease potions in reserve now. But at the time I wasn't expecting the high level rats or the high level magic users. On their own I could have taken out the two cultists but the bandits get in my way, not to mention the elementals. They were between me and Arnika (and thus Lord Braffit). My only other option would be to have tried to make it to the Umpani fort and I didn't think I could take the Hogar in my condition.

You can sneak past the hogar if you are carefully. There are 2 areas on the left and on the right side of the way where the distance is big enough to pass him without getting him hostile. I always do that if I want to visit the Umpani before I make my trip to Arnika.

The roads are harsh. Especially at the beginning of the game (Arnike/Trynton). I remember having to beat back horde after horde after horde of Jugheads, Reapers and bats, many of them coming before I even had a chance to rest. It does get eaiser but right now it may take a bit of luck.

My last party was a muscle party. Three Lizardman fighters, a Mook ranger (autofind and to use the giant swords), a Bishop and a Bard. I think I had the easiest time with this party because early in the game I had a lot of muscle, while the spellcaster was weak and didn't have a lot of spells and late in the game, the spellcaster had nuclear blast (amongst other spells) to do her share of damage. ( I used the bard mostly for the buff spells for the fighters and then later changed class to a Ninja to use the cane.)

Kz