I gave up last night on my recent party of four...

Basically it ended with fighting serval groups of monsters. I had just left the Monestary when I ran into trouble. First I fought 7 Hidgardi Highwaymen (HP: 77+), 7 Hidgardi Roubousts (HP: 87+). Three out the four people died. After the fight was over, I used my last three resurection powders and went on. I reached the "abandoned house" right before the Arnika Road, and BANG. I encountered another 10 Highwaymen. I lost only one life but had no more resurect poweders. Of course the dead one was my only magic caster (Bishop). If that didn't piss me off... it was the next fight. Not only did I get done fighting a tough fight but not ten feet down the road was 10 Acidvines. So I reloaded, and tried to sleep behind the house. As soon as I woke up I spotted an even bigger group of Highwaymen waiting for me again.

All I wanted to do was get to Arnika so I could get more powder but after every single fight; there was another one (harder than the previous one) waiting for me around the corner. I am serious about this!!! I couldn't go 30 seconds without a fight (literally). And there weren't any remotely easy ones (battles) either. To top that off I had no more healing potions, no healing magic (dead caster), and the only three standing were at 20 hit points or less (and the all had a max of 50+ HP!!!). I couldn't camp because everytime I did, an even HARDER group of monsters showed up and "surprised me".

So I just deleted all of my saved games, from that party, and removed those four characters from the game as well. Tell me that I did everything right. Tell me that this is typical for a party of four. I mean I comnplained about the whole "fighting/random encounters" thing in another topic but this was way over the top when it came to having TOO MANY BATTLES. Because I give up on small parties for a long time...

Edit: By the way... In order to overcome this great injustice, I have restarted my LOTR party (thought you might have an interest in this Rezdude03). I have recreated each character (made them more awesome than the first group I made) and I have chosen to stick with this party to the end. And yes it is a party of 6 and it is going to probably stay that way. I'm thinking of picking up RPCs but not to sure... Give me some suggestions or ideas if anyone can...

[ 10-28-2003, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

Sounds like a more than a bit of bad luck. What level were your characters?

In my current party of four (alc-ran-lor-val; currently level 14-15), we had far less trouble on the way to Arnika. I think we were level 6-7 when we started. We had several tough encounters, but nothing like what you describe (I remember something very similar happening in my very first party - a party of six - with group after group of 100+ hitpoint higardi/unfair numbers of plants etc.). The toughest encounter my current party had was around the safe house - we went up against 8 higardi (50-80 hitpoint variety, I think) + 4 acid vines + 9 ants (in a single encounter). I had to reload once because I got caught in the open and surrounded (they came from two different sides. After reloading, I went to the 90 degree angle made near the door to the safe house and scrunched back into it as much as possible (ants cannot climb the walls of the house). Basically, I won the fight by using every spell point my alchemist and others had (and starting fully loaded), and using several magic missile sticks/thrown powders/etc. I also used a lot of heal spells/cure condition/stamina potiions, etc.) You get good effects from cone-type spells in that position. The problem with the back of the safe house is you can still get surrounded, particularly by ants.

yeah, parties of 4 have it tough at the beginning, particularly on the arnika road. it sounds like you had an inordinate amount of bad luck, though.

some things i've done to make it easier:

- reload from the monastary. i always do a quick save before leaving the monastary. if before i get to the teleport house i find it's outta control, i'm not above reloading back from the monastary.

- defense. tactically speaking, small parties dont have as many hit points for distributing the damage they take, so you have to be particularly more conscious of health levels than with larger parties.

- easy difficulty. that's right, another thing i'm not beneath doing is taking down the difficulty for this stretch.

- camp frequently. after i get the piercing pipes chest, camp. i try to minimise extra use of potions for healing and i prefer to have max mana for each new battle.

- terrain! the key one. my favourite spot is at the teleport hut - but not by it, across from it. when you come out of the sandy area, turn left up the hill. at the top, in the corner is a fantastic little crevice where only one enemy can get at you at a time. even better, if you settle right back into it, no one can see you, making it a great place to camp (see previous point).

- finally, if all else fails, keep moving. i hate running from fights, but this is the most imbalanced stretch of the game. so i've occasionally made discretion the better part of valour and kept moving rather than hang out for a bash up.

obviously, in something like you experienced, no amount of strategy is going to help. you just got f*****d. but dont let that turn you off small parties.

good luck with your new one, though!

It can be done, I personally have completed Wiz8 with only 2 characters (and the occasional help from a NPC at the start). Have read reports from playing completing the game with just one character!

Use the tips above, and remember, you do not have to fight every battle in Wiz8, discresion is the better part of valor and all that.

Have fun!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: Thought of another one: Run away, and live to fight another day!

[ 10-28-2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Wolfie ]

I don't recommend camping along the way to Arnika after leaving the Monastery, only if you are close to Arnika. The 2 places I rest before the last few niches near Arnika are at the Cutthroat chest, which is asking for trouble, or behind the house, which also asks for trouble. New groups are generated when you rest and they can be hard. After that, run if you get overwhelmed. The enemies generally break off before you are out of stamina. I made it to Arnika at lev 2, just to see if I could do it. A fair amount of running and using crevices and blind luck helped. People are right when they say the number of enemies are random on that road.

I've made it to Arnika a few times with a 4-party (on my third? now lev 13 much later in the game). But the dice can throw you a bad mix, so you reload from the Monastery...or run.

Hi,

that's one of the reasons I build up my party slowly in the monastery until they reach Lvl. 10 ( as some of you may know from my earlier posts ). When I enter the arnika road there are no longer difficult enemies and you can rest as often as you wish. The new spawned monsters ( many higardi brigand and highwaymen ) bring a lot of EXP and many good items. I never played a party of 4 but IMO they can be build up the same way.
Of course you'll need a little patience for that but with a little luck you can get interesting items in the monastery ( in one of my games it was the only place where I got Vampire Bat Wings ).

But, of course, this is only one way to start into the game.

Greetings

i've actually had as much trouble staying in the monastary trying to build up as i've had just taking my luck with the road. one time a party of 3 (an early one that i think i quit soon after this happened) ran into no less than 17 lvl 8+ slimes in a corridor... they were only lvl 7 or so at the time and just got bitchslapped (if i can say that here!)

I like to leave the M at L5 for parties of three or more, but with enough XP saved up to advance to 8th for a party of 3 and 7th for 4's.
The first 2 games i finished, with parties of 6, i did develop everyone to L10 in the Monastery, but they were imports and started with 5 free levels.
Solos all ended up leaving the Monastery at L8 with enough points for L10. (these were developed in there with extensive fights against Met. Slimes, whose drops were quite a boon...) and Duos were either like Solos or leaving at 7 ready for 9.
The mobs are pretty much evenly matched if you do that. (and don't camp long enough to let them respawn!!!) I haven't been overwhelmed since i started doing this, and i've taken at least 100 parties at least as far as Arnika.

Of course, this may be skewed from your experience, because i always do Stealth for everybody at L4/5.

The biggest problem wasn't defense. The problem was DEATH. I had never had so many deaths in any of my other games. I did have defensive spells, but my bishop was "never" alive to cast them. The battles (IMO) were normal for a PARTY OF SIX. All of my previous parties of 6 encountered these series of "countious" battles but I didn't have THAT many deaths in the early parts of the game. My bishop died about 5 or 6 times. FIVE OR SIX TIMES!!! None of my other magic caster died that many times in the ENTIRE GAME!!! If I can't handle the early levels how can I take on the harder levels/bosses in the game.

With each new monster and each new level brings a new challenge. THE GAME DOES NOT GET EASIER. You fight harder, tougher, stronger, faster, smarter, etc as the game countinues. IMO if I can't win battles early, later equals more disaster. I'm going to totally throw the idea of SMALL PARTIES aside. I like the idea of failing once because now I have something to look forward to trying later on ("... try try again") For the time being I'm going to forget about it and focus on my next party. Speeking of my next party...

Update on my LOTR party: I haven't gotten very far (college, soccer, family issues...) since my first post.
SPOILER ALERT
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My last saved game was in the cave near the N. Wilderness (near the HOGAR). None of my characters have died yet. Gandalf came close (2 spells backfired and brought him down to 2 hit points). I SMASHED Gregor. I only took 5 mins. He did bismal damage to my party. In fact I haven't had any trouble. My next possible mission is the Hogar.

The Hogar has about 400+ hit point and I was thinking about taking him on. I believe that every character is on level 6? Gimil, Aragorn, and Legolas are all on the front line. I think Gimli has 80 some hit points and Legolas/Aragorn each have about 50 something. I do have the concussion powder. Hehehehe. I'm not sure that I'm ready to face him at such a low of a level. I have gone back in other games (late in the game) and absolutely crushed him. I was thinking of maybe seeing what I can do early in this game. I have never used the concussion powder before (on the Hogar); I hope it works...

I will keep you posted about my LOTR party... (if anyone is interested).

[ 10-30-2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

Keep us posted. You can take on the Hogar at level 6 but I foresee alot of reloads. Whatever you can do to make him handicapped, try it. You can also run around a nearby hill and sneak in the cave, but you may not be fast enough at your level. I'm usually lev 9 or better when I try him, but I get him in an attempt or 2. I think it can be done at 6, with patience.

Already in the cave. I got pass the Hogar earlier. Tonight I will attempt to take him down (wait until his back is turned?); of course while crossing my fingers.

i've done the same ASG. if i want to go that way early, i just stick to the bushes and try to sneak around! ;)

Except when your surrounded by a horde of 12 army ants... Them and their bs movement speed.

i know what you're saying SM, but that's not too different from real life. some creatures are quick. have you ever tried to outrun a bumblebee that's decided your shampoo smells divine?

perhaps it crosses the line where reality is no longer fun (eg feeding a party in an rpg), but i think you'll find more people appreciate, or at least dont mind, it than hate it.

MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS
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UPDATE: HOGAR GOES DOWN EASIER THAN GREGOR!!!!!

I didn't hesitate this time. I waited until he turned his back and ran up behind him. I had Frodo (Rogue) chuck the Concussion Powder at him and... INSTANT RESULTS!!! The powder did 85 damage and knocked out the hogar for the remainder of the battle. The hogar had 451 hit points when I faced him; now his face is buried in the ground along with his dead body. 2 MINUTES (literally)!!! The damage from Legolas's (Samurai) bow, Gimli's (Fighter) woodsman axe, Aragorn's (Ranger) raiper & poignard, Gandalf's (Bishop) magic casting, Frodo's (Rogue) sling, and finally Sam's (Bard) doubleshot sling and spike stones brought him down easly.

As of last night, I am now in Arnika. I had my first death. Gandalf fell after backfiring a frost spell and was knocked down to 5 hit points. Sam snatched his life when he fumbled his bagpipe and it struck my party instead. Gandalf the Grey fell... but Gandalf the White has emerged from the ashes (changed his name and personality). I have rescued Vi. I'm going to use her. When I find RFS, I'm going to use him too.

My party looks like this now...

Aragorn/Ranger - Bloodlust and Poison Dagger / Low Bow and Arrows
Legolas/Samurai - Long Bow and Arrows / Ench. Katana and Waz
Gimli/Fighter - Hand Ax and Bearded War Axe / Bipennis
Gandalf/Bishop - Monstrance / Dual Shillelahs (lvl. 2 spells)
Frodo/Rogue - Sling and Stones / Short Sword and Baselard
Sam/Bard - Doubleshot Sling and Spike Stones / Short Sword and Baselard
Vi/Valk - Morning Star and Hammer / Spiked Spear

Thats all for now... I'll keep you updated...

[ 10-31-2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

I am about to start a party of four myself. First time for me. I am going to run a party as follows:

Elf Lord
Human Monk
Elf Ranger
Human Bishop

I haven't the time or patience for training stealth, shield etc.. and I really dislike dual classing so these guys are going to have to take their chances. I may do a bit of magic training for the Bishop to avoid any backfires from his own spells though lol This party is from a book I read so due to role playing the monk will not learn any spells, in the book she was basically a highly skilled martial artists so this is how I am going to play her. Wish me luck! I have a feeling I'm going to need it lol

groovey, starfire. you might find that a fighter or rogue might help survivability in place of the lord or ranger, but i understand the role playing goal.

out of curiousity, what is the book?

Yeh, but I recommend a Rogue switching to Lord for a small party. You get the locks and stealth. The stealth goes up pretty fast, and you can train dual weapons for both. Good carry over. I don't normally go for dual classing. Sometimes it makes sense, it is working for me in the current party. He was a good rogue and a better fighter. A Lord will do as well. The downside is a Lord takes a few levels (5?) to get any magic and the Rogue has none. But you don't need stealth, it just helps your armor rating and who will be targeted next. Locks? Hmm, you need someone with that skill.

Sultan: It's actually a series called "The Cleric Quintet" by R.A. Salvatore perhaps you've heard of it? I'm a big fan of Salvatore and am planning on running another party based on his dark elf series featuring Drizzt Do'Urden. That party will be 4 members as well, Drizzt, Bruenor, Cattie-Brie and Wulfgar.

zig - rogue to lord, hmmm, that's interesting. the dual weapons bonus would add more to combat than the l&t bonus, but the backstabbing bonus... and as you mentioned, the spellcasting would be seriously gimped - why not just to fighter?

although i agree that a party needs l&t (i ALWAYS play with a rogue and/or bard), many people swear by supplementing the poser's cap with spellcasting. i dunno [img]graemlins/uhoh2.gif[/img]

With my partyy of four the hardest fight I had until Arnika, was the one with the crabs at the exit of the monastery. Besides them I only met the ants before the deserted house, and the fixed combat at the chest.

Just an update for anyone who might be interested lol

I decided on a party of 5 based on the Drizzt Do'Urden series. The party is as follows:

Wulfgar Human Fighter
Drizzt Elf Samurai
Bruenor Dwarf Lord
Guenwyhver Felpurr Monk
Cattie-Brie Human Ranger

I chose a Lord for Bruenor since he was King of mithril hall, Ranger for Cattie-Brie because she used the heart seeker bow mostly in combat and of course Samurai for Drizzt because he dual wielded swords. I had to include Guen since she was Drizzt' constant companion. I am only developing magic for Drizzt and Guen because Wulfgar, Bruenor and Cattie did not use magic at all in the books. Guen was a magical creature so I figured allowing her to do magic made sense. I am trying to keep as close to the book as possible as far as character developement so Bruenor and Guen do not use Ranged combat. Wulfgar's hammer was magic and could be thrown but since there are no hammer weapons in the game that can be thrown I will probably end up allowing Wulfgar to use a sling or some other thrown weapon or perhaps to stay true to role playing purposes I shouldn't allow him ranged combat either?

I am working Strength and Dex for Wulfgar and Bruenor. Trying to max out vitality on a human straight away didn't make sense and I decided he could use the dex more to allow him to hit and penetrate more successfully. I got Drizzt's strength to 55 and now am working on dex and speed. For Guen it is Strength and dex, since she is doing martial arts exclusively I decided she would need high strength to do any decent damage. I can work speed and senses on her later. Cattie-Brie of course I am doing dex and senses first.

They made it out of the monastery at levels 5/6 with very little trouble and even the road to arnika was very little trouble. They only ran into two groups of plant types and two groups of higardi highwaymen and roustabouts (at different times, not all at once) Arnika was a breeze. Very few android encounters. I decided to get the wheel key and head back to the monastery to get demons bane sword and demonstring bow. Met very little resistance there as well. Afterwards I decided to do the Umpani alliance and then head over to the lake to pick up the frost spell book and the few other items lying about there. Bad move that was. I got caught out in the open by 5 metallic slimes, 6 slithering slimes and 2 emerald slimes. There were no niches or crevices to run to so I had to face them head on. In most of my parties I have run this would not have been much of a problem as I usually have at least one or two pure casters in my group. This group however has only Drizzt and Guen doing magic and their magic is not that significant yet. Their stamina isn't great either and I had to keep having them drink stamina portions, which meant they had to miss rounds of attacking the slimes in favor of replenishing their stamina. I ended up trying to run away, which didn't work as none of them had enough stamina to stay conscious, Drizzt, Guen, Cattie-Brie and Vi were killed and I didn't have enough rez powders to bring them all back, so in the end I reloaded and decided to try it again lol

I'm wondering now, if perhaps I should be working Strength and Dex for everyone first? They would do better damage and their chances of hitting and penetrating would be much improved I think. One of the problems I ran into with the slimes was "No penetration" when they hit them and when they did hit, they did very little damage. Any suggestions on how to get around this problem?

I should mention, due to role playing Wulfgar is using a stun mace and hammer (there are no better hammers until about mid game or later I think) I wasn't able to get him two hammers (Antone only had one) Perhaps I should stick to a hammer and shield for Wulfgar until I find a two handed hammer if there is one?Bruenor is using axes. I was thinking getting Bruenor the Bipennis Axe would be better as he could do more damage with that weapon then dual wielding a hand axe and bearded war axe. I have Drizzt using blood lust and the wakazashi (sp) Cattie-Brie is wielding demonstring bow and demonsbane. Are there better hammer's and axes this early in the game? If so where? lol There is absolutely no way these guys can go after diamond eyes lol they would never survive the mountain wilderness at this point.

I suppose I could do a bit of magic training for Drizzt and Guen, but I really dislike doing that, it's so tedious and boring and I haven't the patience for it lol

Any suggestions on better weapons and how to get their damage and penetration to decent levels would be much appreciated lol However due to role playing I am sticking to hammers for Wulfgar and Axes for Bruenor.

generally speaking, not every class needs strength and dex to penetrate most of the time. the lord and sam could benefit directly, but i find that the monk and fighter have no trouble after the earliest part of the game, because they learn their weapon skills so fast. so for those classes i generally develop strength and speed.

AFAIK there is only one two-handed mace in the game, but you have to kill (or pp) an ally to get it. it's a good one too, though you have to be a male to use it ;)

lots of two-handed swords and axes though.

I know the weapon you speak of, I pickpocketed it off Chief Gari in one game and gave it to the Lord I was running. It had decent stats and I think +1 to hp or stamina regen, it's been a while since I played that party so I can't remember now.

I have noticed my fighter and Monk seem to hit and penetrate a lot more often then my Lord and Sammy do lol I think I will change tactics for the Sammy and work his Strength and Dex instead of speed and dex. He really needs all the help he can get lol I am already working Strength and dex for the Lord, but the party is young and weak yet so perhaps a few more levels I will start to see a vast improvement. Normally I don't have a problem with the slimes but the last battle with this party and the slimes was brutal! lol

Normally the only slimes I have sometimes problems with are slithering slimes if I run into them in the monastery, because that 50 HP is quite a lot at that stage of the game. Oterwise even with the later slimes they just can't hit mebecause of high AC or stealth.

yeah, that's something i picked up from atlus 7's tips. basically, he recommends building str, dex, and senses for lord because they have such rough stats and so many skills to build up. all 3 of those attributes contribute bonuses to hit and penetrate, plus they will help you learn all your combat skills faster. and i believe the same applies for the sam.

for the lords and sams that i've run, i've found it usually takes til around level 14-15+ before they start making any serious contributions as a melee'r.

Should I be dividing level up points into strength, dex and senses till maxed or just strength and dex to start with? I've had plenty of Lords and Sammies in my party, but I don't think I've ever finished the game with either in a party and I would like to build them to be the best they possibly can be :)Actually I've only ascended twice and both parties had the 4 pure casters, fighter and bard. I would like to try ascending with the other classes as well now. Fighter, bard and 4 pure casters is getting a bit old lol

I added Regis the rogue to the group 1)because I had no characters able to do locks&traps and 2)because I've never actually finished a game with a rogue as part of a party. I've had rogues in parties that I never ascended, but never went far enough into the game to see how awsome they get.

Everyone speaks so highly of the rogue as a melee'er and I would like to see just how awsome he is myself [img]smile.gif[/img]

Rogues get plenty powerful. I go for speed and strength first. Later on, dex and senses. You may need some vitality but not alot. Also build up locks/traps and stealth. There's much advice out there on developing rogues...

regarding lord, i would say str and dex to start with, then senses third. you might have to tweak vitality a bit after that. i'd consider having a bard in the pary to speed the lord, too (saving you from putting points into speed at level up).

regarding the sam, i would have the same advice: str and dex first. however, sam's get the mage spellbook, which has some great offensive spells in it. if you dont build intelligence to max right away (to get powercast), you basically lock yourself out of being an effective spellcaster. i'm not saying that's right or wrong, just a consideration.

of course, i should qualify my advice because i've never built a sam i was happy with (not true of lords or rogues, tho [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

regarding rogues, zig's overview is spot on, imo. i think 7 or 8 of the 9 parties i've ascended with have had rogues. everything good you hear about them is true :D

Thanks so much for the tips, I might swap out the monk and put a bard in her place. I love the bard and always miss her when ever I don't include one in a party lol I'd like to try all the different classes so I will probably end up having 3 or 4 parties going just so I can do that.

I've put my salvatore party on the back burner for now, because I would really like to try out the Lord, Sammy, Rogue, Valkyrie, Gadgeteer, Monk and Ninja. Those are the classes I have never finished the game with. I won't be able to include them all in one party of course, well I could but I don't want to lol I think having two characters with the divine spell book in one party is a bit of over kill so I'll make another party with the Valkyrie, Gadgeteer and Ninja in it. I actually tried an all hybrid party once but I was not happy at all with it. Level ups come too slowly and they did a lot of dying early on.

I usually end up being unhappy with my Sammys as well which is why I've never finished the game with one. Except for one...I had a Felpurr Sammy once who was pretty darn good right from the start unfortunately my old pc decided to die and I lost everything on the hard drive :(