Hello all. I've been playing Wiz 8 for a few months now, having made it to the peak with one party thus far. My current party is a stealth party, consisting of a ninja, monk, and rogue. Thus far, i have made it to trynton with only a few problem areas, but nothing major. i am attempting to run through this time with no NPCs and the fights have been LONG. With no one to deal out too much damage, the fights easily last 20 or so rounds, especially with 8 juggarnaughts. the main problem is my monk, while raising dex and spd, gets tired really quickly. with long fights, this means lots of stamina potions. I was just wondering if anyone else has run a similar party with similar problems. On the plus side, my skills are building extremely fast; on teh down side, when i forget to watch closely, the monk goes unconscious. I'm hoping that as the stealth on each rises, then the unlocked reflection, this party will be able to dodge just about anything but magical atacks. Let me know what you guys think.

i suppose u should look toward building their vitality as well. stealth (but mostly evasion) takes a lot of stamina. if they have no energy to pull it off, they're dead meat. a clever idea however. just make sure u get vitality up and have them drink plenty of fluids (i.e. stamina potions). GOOD LUCK!

AND WELCOME TO THE BOARD! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Let us know how it goes. You have alchemy and psionic with some divinity. You will have a rough time later on without having certain other protections. I think a three party is hard enough, tried it once and made it. I think Valkerie, Faerie Ninja and Bishop. Wasn't too easy.

Good luck with your party. I've taken several 'stealth parties' of three or four, but in all of them, I raised their stealth to at least 70-80 before leaving the Monestary. If you're taking them out without the 'gamey' tactic of fighting the little crabs, you're tough! Zig is right about having a tough time unless you really attempt to pump up their magic.

i took exactly the same party configuration to the peak just a few weeks ago. hobbit ninja, lizardman rogue, and human monk. in my case, i built spd and str for all three, until maxed, then switched to vitality. after that, then senses, then dex. so although your build style is different i suspect you'll run into some similar issues. so here's some thoughts:

- yes, stamina is a huge issue, particularly early. my solution for this was to buy up all the rest all scrolls i could afford at braffit's and keep 3 on each of them. fortunately, they all had artifacts in the 20's by the time i hit the arnika road for trynton, so we rarely fizzled. also, keep 5 pickmeups on each of them. your ninja should be able to mix those (alchemy: 20) so they wont cost you an arm and a leg.

- later, the frequent criticals (ninja and monk get naturals, the rogue was using fang/stilleto) will solve many of the stamina and long fight problems. but build strength so you get damage multiples, extra stamina, and the hit/penetrate bonuses.

- the next biggest problem you're going to encounter is magic resistance. this group has low resistances to begin with, and no access to the mage/bard buff of magic screen. i suggest a) buy one or more amulets of pro magic from crock, which have 5 charges of magic screen (pwr 4), b) build the ninja's earth realm (element shield) and the monk's divine realm(soul shield) early and often, because you'll need to cast those frequently later, and c) concentrate on items that offer magic resistances, such as the cloak of many colours, instead of other bonuses, such as the cape of protection or cloak of stealth.

in the end, all 3 were equally effective, with the monk and rogue tied with 550 kills, and the ninja having around 480 or so. and the party was hugely fun, with massive initiative and running capabilities. i was somewhat disappointed that all 3 having 95+ stealth and wearing only robes would not have more advantages in approaching monsters, relative to non-stealth parties wearing only robes who seemed just as effective.

Stamina and low damage are definitely the issues with these parties. I'm currently running the obligatory solo Faerie Ninja; do you have any idea how long it takes to nibble a Metallic Slime to death with a Faerie Wand and a Shillelah? How about *five* of them? Yeah. Eventually Critical Strike kicks in, but it takes a lot of 0-point and 1-point hits to get there. I routinely had battles go 60+ rounds in the Monastery.

Later on the rogue should get to be a very powerful meleer with dual poison daggers or stilettos.
And welcome to the boards Killer_Rogues

Update on stealth party:
They are doing much better than they were earlier and it has definately paid off to increase dex and stealth as much as possible. there are sometimes when opponents just sit there as i crush them, particularly some of the bigger, 'dumber' creatures (swallowers, hogars, goloms). the ninja is lvl 14, monk 15 and rogue 16, with all three having unlocked reflection. The rogue is becoming more and more the brute force in my party, as i expected her to be.
I have to note that rogues have been my favorite class since beginning my playing and this one, while i'm developing her a little differently, is not disapointing me. I have decided to not use the cursed thieves daggers because i needed more long-range threat from her. so after using two poignards, then a stilleto/poinard and raising my dueling skills, i started dropping a few points here and there into swords, and she is now using an enchanted longsword and a stiletto. the stiletto has given me a surprising number of INSTANT KILLS [img]smile.gif[/img] while the sword damage is considerable (she unlocked power strike a level or two ago). As for the hybrids, they are doing remarkably well. the monk is still strugging sometimes with stamina, but i'll take the 8+ attacks per round any day - i just keep plenty of hvy stam potions and pickmeup potions handy. his magic is also coming along nicely, although it is much to focused on mental and i'm working on diversifying into fire. the ninja has become my little utility character, blending thrown attacks, magic, and bombs/powders very nicely. while i have spread her points a little thin in the realms, she has proven rather efective.

Money was surprisingly scarce early in the game. i found that i was using all the hvy heals i was mixing, being that vitality was not being raised in any of the characters and their HP was relatively low. But after i made i killed the don and sold the CoC (the ninja is a felpur), the cash situation has been gretly improved. also, on the way to or from arnika, i was ambushed by about 20 rogues - i found a nice little crevace and managed to work up the magic on the monk and ninja while my rogue crushed the leftovers. i slept and then 19 more appeared - it was great for cash as well as building my skills (not a fan of 'alternative methods' for building skills - i'd rather earn them as i go, but no offence to those that use them - whatever makes the game fun for you!)

on another post, some were discussing stealth - i would definately say that it helps the character with it and hurts others around without it - one reason i'm not using NPCs (i picked up a few just to rob them and in the process ran into some fights - they were basically fodder as my guys trounced the enemies unscathed - three died and i ditched the remains (myles, rsf, & the trynnie gadgie)). i ran a two-person party with a rogue & bard and the poor bard was always getting beat up - it's what gave me the idea for the stealth party. so, in a large party, one or two with stealth is fine, but for smaller parties, it makes for a ver bloody rpc.

well, there's my long update for anyone still reading this thread. we'll see how it goes from here.

great update, KR. i'd completely forgotten that high-stealth benefit of everyone standing around. it's totally huge through the mid game. later, as the monsters get tougher, they're harder to fool.

my similar party has both ninja and monk throwing, as well as the rogue using crossbow. by the end game, they were as deadly from range as a beefier party all using crossbows.

later, when you get a better sword for your rogue, you'll find her really doing the lion's share of damage. but those multiple attacks, and natural crits, really add up for the monk and ninja. so i'll be interested to see if you have a similar experience as i have - that all 3 contribute pretty equally to kills.

keep us posted!

I had the exact same party, rogue-monk-ninja, but I got bored of it quite soon because it was just too fragile. I made the mistake of focusing exclusively on speed and dex and choosing lightweight races (hobbit, faerie, felpurr). Maybe I'll try another stealth trio sometimes, but I'll put a lot more points on strength. More damage, more stamina. Dex is cool, but those races have high dex and these classes have stealth anyway, which is the whole point of this party. I'd say strength is absolutely essential with a stealth trio. Of course, a bishop would make this party extremely more powerful, but it would miss the point somehow.

I think it is almost philosophical on how you make your party. A Bishop will eventually give you all the useful spells for protection and keep you alive, with some offense thrown in. But who wants a religious guy along to survive a battle? I mean, it seems like the warriors could do it themselves. It's a balance, I know, and the religious guys have always played a role in D&D. My point is the Bishop is almost too powerful, although they develop slow.

Maybe this is a weakness of the game or the genre, because one character can do so much. You can spread it out, but it will be harder to do that. Some may say the same about a fighter. They get too good at killing. It would be a different game if both classes were omitted. Harder, of course. There are many factors here. Food for thought.

i agree, zig.

it's the philosophy that really underlies the choices people make when they select a "non-optimal" party for the joy of the challenge or for role-playing, concept, reasons. wiz8 is better balanced than most to deliver to that, which is why so many of us keep replaying it.

it would be interesting to only make certain classes available in certain party sizes. for example, the "everything" classes, like fighter and bishop, might only be available in parties with less than 3 characters. you'd need more classes of course, to flesh out the middle-sized parties, and even more specialised characters for the large parties.

About choosing non optimal classes: would aything be worse than running a solo lizzie bishop?

Yeah, i did choose the party for the reason of challenge as well as just to try and see if stealth and reflection really help that much - and they do. And i can cast soul & elemental shield before every battle, which i usually do. I do miss armorplate, enchanted blade, and especially x-ray. But that is part of the fun - the challenge of making it with limitations.
As far as strength, this has been the major weakness of my monk. i concentrated on dex and spd and now he will hit 8-10 times per round, but the damage is less than i would like, by a long shot. i'm now raising it, but it will take until about level 25-27 to unlock powerstrike... i pushed strength in the rogue and she has become the powerhouse btu the other two are definately lacking... if i had to do it over again, i would have had the monk concentrate on dex and split the remaining between spd ans str. i would recommend this party to anyone looking for a challenge, but not the challenge of a solo fairy ninja or god-forbid a solo lizzy bishop! there's a good mix of melee, range, and magic - downside is that there are limited armor/goddies you can use. not for beginners, but fun for those who are looking for a good replay.

good summary, KR. it's great to see similar experiences with similar parties to confirm the knowledge base.

powerstrike is not strictly necessary, in and of itself, for a melee character to be successful. however, in order to maximise your damage bonus, i would strongly recommend building up strength regardless of whether or not you can max it. in fact, i would recommend building strength as a first priority for a monk, and then your choice of dex or spd, or splitting the points around.

dplax - how bout a solo lizzie psionicist? ...or a solo faerie lord? ...or a solo dwarf samurai? *wince*

[ 10-19-2003, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: sultan ]

Hee hee hee. Sorry, just finished a good year at a Renfest. A solo dwarf Samarai? Now that's asking for trouble! Why not make him/her a faerie and go all the way?

with a faerie, at least you have speed and intelligence going for you. a little powercast, and snake speed with dual faerie sticks, and you've got a chance.

dwarves are slow, dumb, and uncoordinated (in wiz 8). and the penalty points by being a samurai will put you far enough behind that you may never get good at anything! maybe a bigger challenge would be dwarf ninja - no buffs in the spellbook and even less armour!

all right - time for another update for those of you who i know have been losing sleep wondering how this party is going. Well, i forget where i left off last, but i'll update you on where we are now. WARNING - THERE MAY BE SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T COMPLETED THE GAME.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

well, i despite not wanting to take on NPCs, i decided to go the alliance route. i saved the two captives, quickly teleported out of the rapax camp, and did all the running around and blowing up of the savant's ship as quickly as i could so i could get rid of the two extra XP-takers. I successfully did so and, since this was my first time blowing up the ship, i will say i wish there had been a little cooler graphics on that part. but no matter - it was cool to see the two sides united after years of bitter fighting.
Being that i had not bothered to get the destinae dominus from the sea caves, i thought i better head over there and do it. but since i had already done theo whole rapax initiate thing, including the killing of al-seduxes, i was pushing level twenty by the time i got there. so i decided that i should kill marten (again) just for fun. I must say, he didn't put up much of a fight. maybe it's because i have a rogue who is duel-weilding with a light sword and stilleto and a monk who hit 8-9 times per round, but nonetheless it was dissapointing except for the XP i got.
I might as well go ahead and describe where my characters are. the rogue has developed nicely into my tank, obliterating anything that even thinks about getting close to me. armed not only with great melee weapons, she also has the siege arbuss and plenty of lightning bolts to help wound those ranged buggers. My monk is still beating things away with his martial arts and his stamina is finally high enough to make it through almost any fight. His magic has come along nicely and can now put up a quality soul shield before any fight. usually i use him for melee fighting and psionic attacks (psionic blast, cerebral hemmorage) at ranged creatures. i finally got the quality bo from the rapax castle, but usually he just uses martial arts. The ninja has been the most difficult to build. his magic is scattered all over, and i could not figure what weapon to give him when projectiles ran out. i experiments with a couple of sais, he had a polearm for a while, and now he is using the cat-o-nine-tails. he is still most effective with the boomerang shurikan and whatever else i put in his off-hand, but things run out quickly. his magic is ok, but certainly not great. i have been working up his earth in order to get a more powerful element shield, and his fire isn't too bad. if i had to do it all over again, i would have thought it through more and determined what would make him most effective... oh well - live and learn.
As a group, these guys have great initiative, due to the high speed all of them have. i can easily get up my buffer spells before combat begins, and this makes enemy magic virtually useless except in rare cases where battle go on too long and i forget to recast one of the two. I think that the monk and rogue are definately the most powerful, with the ninja not as powerful simply because i didn't build her well. but with two portal spells, traveling has been fairly easy. the light sword (first time!) has added the necessary firepower, and instant kills definately build up (i expect at least 2-3 per battle, sometimes 4 creatures go down in a round or two). the stealth and reflection still help, but not as much as i wonder around AP ( i placed 2 of the artifacts, just haven't had the time to place the third). Overall, i have really enjoyed this party - the high speed and stealth made even Pee-wee a breeze to kill (i was really hoping for an instant kill, but no such luck). the magic with the hybrids added that aspect of game-play, and by now, money is no problem (just for fun, i switched my rogue to a fighter for a level (level 22 maybe?) and bought all the good armor from ferro - golden breastplate, infinity helm, mantis gloves/boots, played a fighter for a level, then switched back and sold it all back... then gave ferro 100,000 gold just to see what would happen... he said thanks) i am beginning to like small parties and need another small party theme idea for the next round - any suggestions? i have thought about the magic party (mage, psi, alch, priest), or maybe a crusade quest (priest, lord, valk) - i'm open to suggestions. happy gameplaying!

K_R: Thanks for the story. I agree about developing Ninjas. They are probably the hardest if you want them deadly. Also liked the attempt to give Ferro money to see what happens. Those kind of off-the-wall tricks can lead to game secrets. I tried 1 3C party and it did well. Need some patience tho. Monk, Rogue and Ninja sounds like a worthwhile party. If you can survive early levels, that is. Three is the smallest I have tried. I think it was a Lord, Rogue and Bishop.

Edit: added the last sentence

[ 10-25-2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

Heh, my first Trio was Lord, Bard, Bishop. First Duo was Bard and Bishop.

KR - great update. it's always good to compare notes, particularly where similar parties are concerned. in my case, i was very focussed on the magic i wanted out of the ninja (air and earth exclusively, and whatever healing i could build naturally), and found her to be a solid 3rd member - still not as good as the monk or rogue, but more satisfying than it sounds like you have felt. of course, i didnt get light sword... ;)

for your next small party recommendation, the one going around in my head is a valkyrie, samurai, rogue party. the idea would be to have access to all the buffs from the valk/sam, and the rogue to balance out with solid melee and l&t. the other thing i wanted to try with this party was go sword and shield with all 3. :D

Or maybe:
Polearm Party!
Lord for the Faust Halberd (Antone PP/drop--"gotta" be a Lord for the HP-3)
Fighter for Raven's Bill (Tramain or Gari PP/drop)
Ninja for Dread Spear (buy at Ferro/Bela; could be Ranger but someone's gotta PP/L&T)
Monk for Mindblast Rod (steal from T'rang).
Preparing for all this could be easy--all above can use Spears bought from Burz.

very cool concept, scatter. of course, waiting for the pp or drops would kill me!

another one that occurred to me was a conan the destroyer party. two rogues, a fighter and an alchemist.

conan - male human thief, building strength and senses, sword and dagger.
malak - male human thief, building dex and speed, dual dagger.
zula - female human fighter, building strength and speed, staff.
akiro - male human alchemist, build intelligence and dex, using staff and sling.

you'd have to limit them all to light armour, but with no permanent buffs it would be a real challenge.