I enjoyed reading the LOTR party ideas and admit i tried a few myself(my very first party was LOTR) Some of the ideas were real good.
Someone mentioned a FF9 party, i didnt make one but had:

Beatrix, Valkyrie

I used the human girl with blonde hair and the metal mask.i think this suited her best and she was quite good.
I equipped her with a polearm but if NE1 has any ideas for weapons or other characters or parties please tell.

heres one rezdude03 helped with

dracon fighter
elf ranger
human samurai
mook psionic
mook bard
hobbit rouge

Beginner's party:

3 fighters, 1 bard, a priest, and a mage

Ranged party:

Fighter, Samurai, Valkyrie, Ranger, Bard, Gadgeteer

SPOILY ALERT!!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


Once your gadgy can make doubleshot and tripleshot crossbows, this party really is quite a menace. You have three spell schools covered, the best Psionic spells are covered by the bard and gadgy's instruments and gadgets. Not for beginners, though, since magic is weak. Beware of weight problems, you need to carry tons of ammo, since you will be firing so much per round. Later on, when you find the more expensive ammos, this party can be costly.

All-Purpose party:

Samurai focusing on STR and DEX, Monk focusing on STR and SPD, Valkyrie or Lord focusing on STR and DEX, Ninja->Ranger focusing on STR and DEX, Rogue focusing on SPD and DEX, and Bishop focusing on INT and SPD. This party does decent in melee, range, and magic, though not great at any one thing. Alternately, bard could replace rogue, though I prefer a rogue's better melee.

Magic-Heavy party:

Fighter, Bard, Priest, Mage, Alchemist, Psionic

Spoily space!!!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


The bard should wield Bloodlust and a good shield. At range, she uses her instruments, so don't bother with bows. Very versatile character. The fighter should use a polearm and a ranged weapon, and is there to take down anyone that gets too close to the weakling casters. This party is all about damaging spells en masse. With the bard's piercing pipes, and the other four casting cone or area effect spells, most groups are torn up before they get to you. Probably the strongest party, but weak against boss types. I actually increase STR and DEX or SPD with my priest, who functions as a part-time fighter. My Alchemist focuses on STR and INT, and is decent from the back ranks with a staff. Basically, I blast the enemy from afar with attack spells, and if they get to melee range, I use the good selection of disabling spells available. Another plus is the fact that this party has no hybrids, so level ups are quick. The casters develop quickly into powerful attackers, so much so that my fighter is a little sub-par at melee! Make sure the bard is a female for the necklase of endurance, and try to make the psionic and mage faeries INT and SPD focused, so that they can get soul-shield and element shield up quickly. Don't worry about low strength, because you simply won't have that much weight to carry, since only one character uses ranged weapons, and ammo can weigh so much.

Edit: increased spoily space size

[ 09-28-2003, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: Cataephract ]

oooh! oooh! pick me!

thats me that posted the ff9 party. personally, i thought it was fun but kinda confusing getting it set up. check LOTR party posts for my suggestions.

One party I'm thinking of trying:
The Stark family, from A Song of Ice and Fire
All Rawulf:

Jon Snow--ranger (commander of the Night Watch)
Robb--lord (the Young Wolf, King of the North)
Sansa--bard (brought up in the courtly arts)
Arya--ninja (assassin)
Robb--bishop (wizardry and psionics)
Rickon--fighter (wild child)

I know I know a Watership Down Party they all could be Rabbits!!!

Oh? There are no Rabbons in this game. Damm!!

Final Fantasy parties almost always come into mind but FF9 was the easiest for me to make.

Zidane-rouge- he was part of a band of thieves. he even used twin daggers.
Steiner-fighter/lord-a master swordsman. he might even be a samurai since he could cast spells with his sword.
Freya-valkerie-no question. she was awesome with polearms and even learned some healing magic (reia's wind?)
Amarant-monk-altough he had claws, he fought with his hands. take note that he was a loner.
Dagger-preist(ess)-obviously she would have this profession. i would have used Eiko but none of the pics looked even close to her. besides, Dagger is more important (in case you were wondering, her full name is "princess garnet til alexandria XXVIII." "try saying that three times when your drunk")
Vivi-mage-skilled in black magic, this fits him perfectly.

An FF8 party could have all humans but...

[ 10-09-2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Rezdude03 ]

FF8 would be kind of hard (it is my all time favorite game).

this is just an idea, probably not a good one...

Squall: Lord (with some modern weapon)
Zell: Monk (fists)
Selphie: Ninja (nunchaka)
Quistis: Valk (whips)
Rinoa: Gadget/Mage (modern weapon)
Irvine: Ranger (guns)

I don't know....

Squall has the gun blade(which would probably be a pretty good new weapon [if the creators of wiz9 can hear me now]). Modern weapon for the gun and sword skill for the blade.

Zell is obvious. Selphie is kind of the same, I mean se could just be another Valk (but couldn't use the nunchakas).

Quistis is really close. I mean the Valk can use mace and flail pretty well (like Vi) and the Cat'o Nine Tails is pretty much the same weapon that she uses.

Rinoa is a toss up. She fires a blade (like a crossbow). Modern weapon ...? Switch to Mage during the middle of the game. She became a sorceress and got the limit break of Sorcery. So I think Mage is a better second choice (good luck comming up with a first one) Or even a Ranger. I'm just throwing an idea out.

Irvine is another toss up. I mean he could also be a Gadgeteer (but so could Rinoa). Ranger could be pretty cool (and if he is a Gadgeteer then make Rinoa a Ranger). I just think that Irvine is a Ranger because rangers are sort of Loners (like he was or claimed to be "lonely") and can also use the Modern Weapon skill (so you can use the Zip Gun or Musket as one of his weapons). Rangers also have the accuracy for long range weapons (and Irvine was a great sniper).


This is the best I can do for right now, but I think a FF7 party would be even better...


Cloud: Lord/Human sword
Tifa: Monk/Human fists
Aeris: Priest (or Bishop)/Human (or maybe Elf because of being an ancient) staff
Barret: Gadgeteer/Human gun
Cid: Fighter or Gandgeteer (he did like machines)/Human polearm
Red XIII: Ninja/Rawulf fists
Yuffie: Ninja/Human shurikens
Vincent: Ranger/Human gun
Cait Sith: Monk/Felpurr fists
Sephiroth??: (this one is tough) Fighter or Lord/Human or Elf sword

See if that isn't better...

[ 10-10-2003, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

For beginners at this game, I would strongly recommend against any repeating of characters, such as multiple Fighters in the party. The reason is fun. Several new players have been bored by such a choice, unnecessarily, and didn't enjoy the game.

Sometimes players do parties with multiples (like 6 Fighters or 3 Bishops) for a particular challenge, but that's different.

It is horrible advice, IMHO, to tell a new player to repeat characters in their party. There are also special items in the game that only certain characters can take advantage of, so by limiting characters, you end up playing less of the game than if you play a variety. Battle strategies become stagnant. I don't even believe the term "easy" should be applied to such a party when it's boring.

I have recently be thinking of having a party of four.

Fighter/Dracoon
Bard/Hobbit
Bard/Dwarf
Bishop/Elf

The fighter would be the front line. The bards would be on each side. And the bishop would be in the middle.

My question though, is this possibly smart or stupid? I want a fighter or heck even a samuri in front. I wanted a bishop because they can cast almost every spell. But the reason for the 2 bards is the following:

1. there are way to many instruments for 1 bard to carry
2. bards (usually for me) end up being the best all around characters
3. 1 would be focued on using all of the defensive instruments (angels tongue)
4. 1 would use all of the offensive ones (poets lute, piercing pipes)

I'm not sure if this is the way to go. I've beaten the game twice and I'm on my way to a third (Rapax Castle). Is this a good idea for a forth party......?


Edit: By the way Freeminded, what was your LOTR party (which characters/classes/professions)?

[ 10-10-2003, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

well i myself would not call him a loner since he was basically the "orginal lady's man" but a ranger would work.

crossbows are bows not modern weapons. still, that is a bit of a toss up. especially since mages cant use crossbows. the problem is, none of the characters had a deffinate proffesion. they were mostly the same other than limit breaks.

oh, eew, how do we get into these discussions? particularly since they are off-topic for the thread at hand...

although the reasons you give are all great things about non-repeated class parties that apply to beginners and non-beginners alike, there is a great reason to recommend repeated-classes to new players. that is: simplicity.

wizardry 8 is difficult. learning it takes quite a bit of trial and error, and the layered complexity and subtlety isnt easy to understand, even for an experience computer RPGer. by putting repeats of the same classes side-by-side, and using different races, or even the same races but varying their development, you can learn by direct comparison.

even if you dont develop them differently, the player has to less to worry about to get the party functional, and so can put more thought into strategy, tactics, the plot, etc.

i'm not saying repeated clases are a must, but i will say they are far from uncalled for. in fact, they might be just the thing to flesh out your knowledge of the game, for experienced players and newbies alike.

In my "no mana" party, I found it more useful to divide the offensive/debuff and defensive/buff instruments between the two Bards. That way you can cast, for example, both Haste and Bless in the first round, followed by attack or debuff spells in later rounds, healing as necessary. Likewise for two Gadgeteers: pump up the melee/shield guy with GA and Superman in the same round, etc.

oh, eew, how do we get into these discussions? particularly since they are off-topic for the thread at hand...
</font>[/QUOTE]Interesting. I'm kind of surprised you found my comments to be off topic here (although I am often "guilty" of that when a thread drifts into a divergent but interesting area - it's the nature of discussion, I guess).

Cataephract, early in this thread gave the advice:

Advice like this, with repeated characters is also given as a "great party for beginners" on the VN boards, from time to time.

It's a rotten trick to play on a player new to Wizardry 8. They buy this game, thinking they are going to have a great time, but instead find the combats boring and repetitive.

Those who give this advice for beginning players rarely, if ever, actually played a party like that (it wasn't the first party for those posting that advice on the VN boards). I have seen several times, where players naively and trustingly, thinking that those of us who advise have their fun at heart, take that advice. Some, after they play through the entire game like that, come back and report not having much fun. I don't blame them. It is very rare to see people who actually play the entire Wizardry 8 game that were bored, but I have seen it in this case. I'm not talking about the players that hit Arnika road and quit for a variety of reasons.

There is an arrogance among some Players (I'm not talking about you, Sultan, as far as I know), that makes them think they can handle all sorts of variety of characters, weapons and even strategies, but that other players new to the game are too stupid or ignorant to do so. There is no reason to expect that the smartest players who will ever play this game have already played it. It is insulting and demeaning to the new player to suggest to them that they should stick to only one type of character in the front line (for example), when they are starting out. Did you? Even if easy is desired, there are many easy parties in the game, with lots of variety.

Yes I love the variety of characters in this game, and the way they can all be powerful if developed well, but my comments were unselfishly on behalf of the new player, based upon evidence I have seen of new players getting bored with the game when actually taking such advice and playing parties like that. Many of us who keep playing Wizardry 8 have played lots of parties, so if one is a bummer or boring, no big deal. A lot of RPG players out there, however, will not change parties, and will finish the game with their first one. If they only play it for a few levels, it hardly matters but the whole game, it does.

When advice like that is given to new players that is likely to hurt their enjoyment of the game, that is simply mean. I can easily be wrong in any post, but do my best to communicate truth and feel it is important, relevant and worth posting in this case, to any new player actually considering taking that advice. This thread is about party ideas and my post is no more off topic than the previous post which gave, IMHO, the bad advice for the beginning player.

Now I hope nobody jumps to the conclusion that I am claiming repeated characters are always a bad idea or are not fun. I didn't say that and am claiming no such thing. I am talking about the intelligent and capable beginner (i.e. any beginner) who, wisely or unwisely, might come to this very board or another looking for suggestions for their party. For example, I have no disagreement with allstargoaly's post that CT also followed up on. Sounds like fun. The best Ranged-Party ideas I have ever seen (by GreaterDemon on the VN boards) had some repeated characters. Beginners may certainly choose a party such as one of those, and that's great. That's very different than what I am suggesting is mean.

Finally, I don't mean to pick on Cataephract, even though I disagree with most of the conclusions. I actually recognize a lot of my own advice for Bard and Alchemist development (by coincidence or reuse - it doesn't matter).

The advice for the beginner theatens new players fun, however, and is important. It probably isn't meant viciously and is probably just repeating what somebody else posted. I think if a party is going to be recommended to a new player that the one doing the recommending ought to have played it through to the end and attest that they had a great time doing so. Then recommend it.

[ 10-12-2003, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

Good points, EEW. I agree when people ask for an easy party they can get too easy, but maybe that is what they want. I'm kind of neutral about parties. Whatever works!

When you leave the Monastery you can get overwhelmed and it is just hopeless. Or, you can rest a bit and the enemies change and it is a piece of cake. Most of us have tried many parties, I have taken 9 to the end and they all have + or - skills. I don't like the 2 or 3 or 4 members being the same class/profession though. Never tried it, to be exact. But that is strictly taste. If you want to create a killer party, do what you want. I like variety and some weakness, to lead to development choices. Not too much, though. There are no perfect parties, it's a trade off. My 2 cents.

Thanks, Ziggurat. I agree with what you said. That stretch outside the Monestary has killed off more would-be Wizardry 8 players than all the other reasons combined.

It is also the biggest source of bad advice. A party which would allow even the brand new, inexperienced player to get through that stretch without any of the running, fighting from nooks, hiding , strategic sleeping, holding off on level-ups, playing on easy, etc., might not serve them well the rest of the game.

Also when an expert player repeats some characters, such as a Bishop, they might and probably will end up with completely different characters that just happen to share the same profession.

[ 10-12-2003, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

my first comment was tongue in cheek - more a reference to the first post (by freeminded referencing a LOTR party), than the path the thread has followed, or the fact we like to wander, which i most enjoy. apologies for any misunderstanding. i'll try to be more plain, below.

eew - i love your posts, and i mean that sincerely. although there's much i'd like to comment on, i will focus on the key message, for clarity.

that's an excellent point and one i hadnt considered from your original post. this is definitely a good reason not to recommend repeated characters.

however, it only offers a counterbalance to the reasons to play repeated characters, imo. as i stated before, a party that repeats characters is infinitely easier to play than a party full of the many difficult and slow to develop hybrids offered in the game. for some players, that complexity, when confronted full on, can be just as big a barrier to enjoyment or continuing play.

the trade-off is boredom for simplicity.

in pursuit of the truth, i would expect the repeated characters alternative to be offered, with positives and negatives clearly outlined, alongside other more interesting parties, with their positives and negatives outlined, so that the intelligent and capable beginner can make an informed decision on what they would most enjoy.

and if they pick wrong, they've got all the other suggestions ready and waiting [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-14-2003, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: sultan ]

Sounds good.

Yes, that point is exactly at the core of it.

I think the "trade-off" is deceptive. 99% of all RPGs focus on where you go, what you get and who you kill. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, is a Character Development Strategy Game, as well as RPG, and that's what makes it so great. Take that out of the picture and you have something okay but not great. The new player to the game doesn't know this, so they can easily think they will have most of the fun with a so-called "easy" party with repeated characters, since they still go to all the places, get the treasure and so forth. Only those of us who love this game, and have played it many times, know how much this robs from them.

This was just a strong opinion, and since I hadn't actually played a party like that through the entire game myself, I just kept my mouth shut. But when some new players actually took that advice, played the game and found it boring, that became evidence and I began to speak out against those plausible-sounding suggestions. It actually gave one player the impression that this would be an awful game to replay. Can you imagine that?

Anyway, as long as the new player is warned that they might be bored to tears if they actually play a party like that, I guess that's fine. They can figure it out, given a warning. I will humbly say that new players can handle a lot more than you think they can, or so I have found by following their posts for the last two years. Simplicity in getting there is a virtue when the end result is all that matters but when the whole point is enjoying the process, simplicity may or may not be a virtue. In this case, in that way, in my opinion... not. It is much better to take a variety and play the entire game on "Easy." That can be a lot of fun according to what players who do actually play that way report. If it were the other way and players found three Fighters in their front line great fun and playing in Easy mode boring, then my position would be reversed. It's just about what happens to be true, or as close to it as possible.

Go figure... I changed my mind yet again.

I just started a new party of four.

Dracon/Fighter
Human/Samuri
Human/Ranger
Rawulf/Bishop

For the most part, the group is doing well. The Dracon/Fighter and Human/Samuri are just knocking off the competition, while the Human/Ranger and Rawulf/Bishop are cleaning up (while giving support). My question is, "What is going to happen against huge groups of bigger and better monsters?"

Because of having 4 characters instead of 6, the experience is racking up. The only thing that concerns me, is having a party of 6 makes it easier to win battles against bigger groups of enemies than with 4. I wonder if having a party of 4 will make it harder later in the game. Does anyone have some insight...?

I mean leveling up will be easier in the beginning, but against larger groups later on (like 6, lvl. 15 monsters), is my fate intangled in death and defeat...? I could use some good advice from those who have used parties of 4,3,2, and 1...

Allstar:
I'm also running a party of four
Alchemist
Ranger
Lord
Valkyrie
(all human)
I'm in Trynton now after monastery, arnika, joining Umpani, cemetary. The key to my winning over large groups of monsters is keeping my Alchemist safe. Her spell casting started strong and has only gotten more powerful vis a vis the enemies we face (she has more than double the number of kills of any of the other characters). The problem is that I don't have enough characters to really protect her (I keep the three hybrids in front, alchemist in the middle) so I have to make extensive use of nooks, passageways, etc., where bad guys cannot get around me. You can imagine facing 8 Juggernauts at level 8-9 is not easy (we are now levels 10 and 11), but the alchemist can heal my front line characters (and we have plenty of potions) as well as cast the cone/area of effect spells. In a nook I would win this battle consistently (although requiring a few pandemonium powders and several rocket sticks for when I ran out of SP). If facing groups with missile attacks (large groups of plants, for example), I always put guardian angel on the alchemist at the beginning.

Now that my hybrids are casting better, I'm using almost exclusively magic for ranged attacks - lord/valk throw a lot of level 3 webs and level 6 or 7 make wounds, ranger casts blinding flash and noxious fumes and just got whipping rocks. This cuts the enemy down substantially before getting to melee (which my characters can also do, but relatively poorly, as I'm pushing INT/PIE for all characters and using about 4-6 skill points/level in magic for the hybrids.

Another important thing for me has been smelling salts and stamina potions. In my 6 or 8 character parties I didn't bother (except for the requisite stamina potions for a bard), but with four I find it oh so important. I think with your party, fighting from a nook against large numbers of enemies who may have knockout ability, as long as your fighter/front line characters stay awake you'll be okay.

Petertmorgan, thanks for the advice.

I haved face 9 Juggernauts (4 Jugs and 5 Jugs) before (with my party of 6 + Vi and RFS). It was a long freaking battle. Everyone at one time or another passed out. The problem wasn't damage or speed, the problem was health. The Jugernauts have insane amounts of HP. In fact if I remember correctly, they didn't touch me. I first used Poet's Lute (sleep) which affected the whole front row of them. Then I used Snare Drums (slow). And finally Armor Melt. Plus my party continuosly KO them. Still it took over 20 mins to kill all of them.

And to make matters worse... as soon as I beat them I walked down the road (Arnika) and met up with 15 more (3 groups of 5 Jugs)!!! To think I just destroyed a bunch and was out of stamina, but NOOOOOOOO, my party has the PLEASURE of fighting again... NOT!!! I ran. Ran like the wind!!!

Can't wait until I face them again (Hahahaha, ohhh boy!!!!).

Thanks petertmorgan thats helps if you have anymore advice just let me know.

[ 10-15-2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

Alstargoaly if the first group did'nt touch you, then why bother running from the second one? You coul have just waited in battle to get the stamina back, and kill them afterwards.

Petertmorgan, I was also thinking about your party.

You said that you have 3 characters in the front row and the Alcem in the middle. Stop right there...

Put the Ranger on the outside and the Valk on the outside. The Ranger should be just fine on the outside (uses long range). The Valk should be fine too (assuming that you are using a EXTENDED WEAPON, a.k.a. polearm). The Valk can still hit in melee from the side because the EXTENDED WEAPON can reach from there. This way you can inclose the Alcem. (protecting his low health butt).

If not put the Ranger next to the Alcem in the middle (pushing the Alcem to the right side of the middle). This will allow the Ranger to still attack from long range; as well as, protect the Alcem (sort of). Basically the only way you can damage the Alcem is from behind or from the right side (if he is on the right side of the middle).

See if that doesn't work better in protecting the Alcem.


Edit: dplax... I had no stamina left for my Bard. The only reason why the first group didn't touch me is because the Bard kept them at bay with her instruments (sleep, haste, slow, and armor melt.) She was gone (basically) and the Jugs were already annoying the first time. If you think about it, it was kind of stupid. But I was right next to the entrance to Arnika and I didn't feel like taking another 20-25 mins of strugling with 15 more Jugs. So I just used what little stamina my entire party had left and ran for Arnika.

[ 10-15-2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

ASG - i'm a huge fan of the 3-4 member party. the biggest consideration i've found, relative to the larger parties, is defence. you have to pay much closer attention to their health and well-being.

as such, before i leaver arnika the first time, i equip everyone with 5 pickmeups, or better yet 5 restorations if i can afford them. i also scatter around cure paralysis powder and smelling salts and resurrections. sure, a spellcaster may have these spells, but what if they're the ones affected?

and if i dont have access to priest spells, rest all scrolls are added to the character inventories.

during battle, stamina is a huge consideration, particularly for high number of attack characters like the monk and ninja. even a rogue who's built dex and spd up can start to drain their stamina quickly. so if you have a priest or alchemist, be prepared to take time to use that lvl 1 stamina spell to save the fighters from having to stop to heal themselves - the priest and alchemist work great in tandem with a bard for this reason. in your case, the bishop will have to fill this role.

for after battles, i use heli's bread rolls, which i keep stocked to the max in the inventory, to get everyone back to near fighting trim, just in case of those surprise back-to-back encounters. sure, spellcasting for health and stamina is better for learning/practice, but that early in the game mana is hard to come by and the spell points are better used in combat, imo.

i find the faster levelling and focus of playing small parties more enjoyable. on the other hand, my wife says my little mind cant handle the challenge of making combat decisions and tracking the development of the larger, 7 or 8 member parties. ;)

good luck as you experiment!

Speaking of new parties, I started one just to try something new. I think I really like the four-char parties better after you have been thru the game a few times. (Haven't abandoned my last one of six, just need a change). Here's the current one. Should be interesting:

Ktrarr M Felpur Rogue
Sybiline F Human Monk
Whist M Mook Ranger
Jennazare F Elf Bishop

They are all strong characters, just haven't seen this combination. Still working thru the Monastery. I think this party will work if I build up both magic and melee with Monk and Ranger, to some extent (focusing on melee and their primary magic realm). The extra levels should help. This is one of those weird ones, I think, but it has promise. Been easy so far but you know how THAT can go...

If you don't want to be caught in another battle after a battle, then think about using X-ray, which is one of the best buffs in the game.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by allstargoaly:
[QB] Petertmorgan, I was also thinking about your party.

You said that you have 3 characters in the front row and the Alcem in the middle. Stop right there...

Put the Ranger on the outside and the Valk on the outside. The Ranger should be just fine on the outside (uses long range). The Valk should be fine too (assuming that you are using a EXTENDED WEAPON, a.k.a. polearm). The Valk can still hit in melee from the side because the EXTENDED WEAPON can reach from there. This way you can inclose the Alcem. (protecting his low health butt).

If not put the Ranger next to the Alcem in the middle (pushing the Alcem to the right side of the middle). This will allow the Ranger to still attack from long range; as well as, protect the Alcem (sort of). Basically the only way you can damage the Alcem is from behind or from the right side (if he is on the right side of the middle).

See if that doesn't work better in protecting the Alcem.
-------
Thanks for the advice. I thought about those kinds of arrangements but I haven't so far for a few reasons. First, none of my three front-liners is really strong enough (hit points/armor/melee killing power) to hold a formation slot alone (with all three together then it's less likely one will get ganged-up on). Second, I am developing dual weapons for the ranger, so I don't want her to miss out on front-line combat. Also, I'm concentrating on magic for ranged attacks, so ranged combat/bow is going up slowly in the ranger. I think I will take your advice when the party is stronger and each of the front three are more deadly. So far, I haven't had too many situations where my Alchemist was exposed on the side for more than a round or two.

oh, eew, how do we get into these discussions? particularly since they are off-topic for the thread at hand...
</font>[/QUOTE]Interesting. I'm kind of surprised you found my comments to be off topic here (although I am often "guilty" of that when a thread drifts into a divergent but interesting area - it's the nature of discussion, I guess).

Cataephract, early in this thread gave the advice:

Quote:

Originally posted by Cataephract: Beginner's party: 3 fighters, 1 bard, a priest, and a mage

Advice like this, with repeated characters is also given as a "great party for beginners" on the VN boards, from time to time.

It's a rotten trick to play on a player new to Wizardry 8. They buy this game, thinking they are going to have a great time, but instead find the combats boring and repetitive.

Those who give this advice for beginning players rarely, if ever, actually played a party like that (it wasn't the first party for those posting that advice on the VN boards). I have seen several times, where players naively and trustingly, thinking that those of us who advise have their fun at heart, take that advice. Some, after they play through the entire game like that, come back and report not having much fun. I don't blame them. It is very rare to see people who actually play the entire Wizardry 8 game that were bored, but I have seen it in this case. I'm not talking about the players that hit Arnika road and quit for a variety of reasons.

There is an arrogance among some Players (I'm not talking about you, Sultan, as far as I know), that makes them think they can handle all sorts of variety of characters, weapons and even strategies, but that other players new to the game are too stupid or ignorant to do so. There is no reason to expect that the smartest players who will ever play this game have already played it. It is insulting and demeaning to the new player to suggest to them that they should stick to only one type of character in the front line (for example), when they are starting out. Did you? Even if easy is desired, there are many easy parties in the game, with lots of variety.

Yes I love the variety of characters in this game, and the way they can all be powerful if developed well, but my comments were unselfishly on behalf of the new player, based upon evidence I have seen of new players getting bored with the game when actually taking such advice and playing parties like that. Many of us who keep playing Wizardry 8 have played lots of parties, so if one is a bummer or boring, no big deal. A lot of RPG players out there, however, will not change parties, and will finish the game with their first one. If they only play it for a few levels, it hardly matters but the whole game, it does.

When advice like that is given to new players that is likely to hurt their enjoyment of the game, that is simply mean. I can easily be wrong in any post, but do my best to communicate truth and feel it is important, relevant and worth posting in this case, to any new player actually considering taking that advice. This thread is about party ideas and my post is no more off topic than the previous post which gave, IMHO, the bad advice for the beginning player.

Now I hope nobody jumps to the conclusion that I am claiming repeated characters are always a bad idea or are not fun. I didn't say that and am claiming no such thing. I am talking about the intelligent and capable beginner (i.e. any beginner) who, wisely or unwisely, might come to this very board or another looking for suggestions for their party. For example, I have no disagreement with allstargoaly's post that CT also followed up on. Sounds like fun. The best Ranged-Party ideas I have ever seen (by GreaterDemon on the VN boards) had some repeated characters. Beginners may certainly choose a party such as one of those, and that's great. That's very different than what I am suggesting is mean.

Finally, I don't mean to pick on Cataephract, even though I disagree with most of the conclusions. I actually recognize a lot of my own advice for Bard and Alchemist development (by coincidence or reuse - it doesn't matter).

The advice for the beginner theatens new players fun, however, and is important. It probably isn't meant viciously and is probably just repeating what somebody else posted. I think if a party is going to be recommended to a new player that the one doing the recommending ought to have played it through to the end and attest that they had a great time doing so. Then recommend it. </font>[/QUOTE]I've got to say, EEworzelle, that you are much more civil and open to true discussion than people on some boards are. So don't worry, I don't feel picked on. The 3 fighter/bard/priest/mage party was my very first party, and one I eventually played through to Ascension, and enjoyed it. I had only ever played up to Wiz5, and completely missed 6 and 7, so when I started a wiz8 party, I went with the same party I had played through those early games, and so, within the frame of reference I had, that seemed like a good "standard" party. I still think it is a good party for getting used to the mechanics of the game, and getting through tough areas with a minimum of frustration and and a maximum of enjoyment. Yes, your posts have influenced my party design, just as Atlus7's have influenced character design. But I stand by these parties, and have played them all to the end.

indeed he is, cat. as is yourself. that's why IW is the best wiz8 board out there.

*group hug*

And also people give advice freely, and discussions don't get heated.

P.S. "joins group hug"

Too much hugging!!!

Fair enough.