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Hey you all!
I was wondering if y'all pick characters or races based on the items you know are already there? I've found three Giant Swords and I have no mook in my party; bumber. I've never had a chance to try this weapon. I also regretted not giving my rogue a staff from the start. She has the staff of doom now but she could have had her skills up way sooner. The daggers were useless in her position anyway. I just killed Nessie! (should have called it Ogopogo though) I also just switched my Ranger to a Fighter to get Berserk but his attacks don't seem any better? |
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yes and no, after about the 2nd game through yes (for something a little different).
I personally think this contains considerably more "cheese" than taking a level in rouge for the stealth AC bonus. After all you could easily have come up with idea on your own (and the game isn't balanced on AC versus hit rate), but how on earth could you have known that the cane of corpus was even available - let alone available for a specific race and class? I think this is what people are talking about when they use the "meta" term, (it reeks bad). On the other hand you don't want to be dissapointed either (which seems to be all to familiar with inconsistent chest "drops"). I have no problem looking at other sites to see what is available by name and damage (and hopefully weapon type). The list I use doesn't tell me where the item is or who can use it or even what special effects it has - it just gives me heads up to say you have several choices or not for a type of weapon and that a particular weapon is more likely to be more powerfull or not. For example: I like extended reach weapons so I look in that category both to "uber" weapons and simple weapons to see if I want to specialize in a particular type of weapon (polearm is a no-brainer here, but mace and staff look decent to). Additionally I also choose at least two and usually 3 weapons to speacilize in to extend my options (typically they will be trained up into the 80's). Of course then there is the whole "training" issue... |
Another way to plan ahead: read Boscher's articles on how to best develop classes. They can be found at http://www.geocities.com/jandrall/
Understanding which race/class combinations develop quickly and which develop slowly can mean the difference between fun and frustration. Alternately, some people intentionally choose hard to develop race/class combinations to increase the challenge. |
Thanks tuckyboy. I'll check it out.
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1) Hybrids are evaluated strictly as pure fighters; specifically, INT is completely ignored. That alone invalidates the Bochser hybrid analyses for me due to the way I build and use hybrids: I want strong spell casters, so I bring up INT and the most-useful combat-related attribute first. 2) The analyses are based almost solely on how quickly a given race/class combination maximizes several--typically 5--attributes. So a given race is declared "better" than another because it maxes all the selected attributes by, say, level 43 instead of level 39. As we all know, in a full party you're going to finish the game before anyone except (maybe) non-magic classes even sees level 30. 3) Specifically in the case of the Bishop, Bochser includes PIE as the second-most-important attribute. In fact, it's essentially irrelevant. Now, to be fair, those analyses were done shortly after the game was released, and thus relied a lot on the documentation in the manual and in the game, rather than on a lot of actual play experience. As we've found, the advertised info doesn't always match real-world conditions: Piety really doesn't matter, STR is more important than SPD for a Monk, etc. So read the Bochser analyses in the light of how *you* plan to develop *your* characters; understand the patterns and issues; but don't blindly pusht the "I believe" button. |
I am tracking virtually parrallel to your thinking, as you have pointed out the Boscher recommendations are quite flawed. First time I saw 'em I was thinking - cooooooool. Then I went through them about 5 times and and compared them to what others were stating in open discussion section and thought - not so cool. Then I compared them to my way of thinking and thought that the recomendations (while still being better than what I was doing my first game through), provide more dis-information than anything.
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ScottG, is that why you are creating a new user guide, because you think players are at the same level as those old guides? I never agreed with the race picks of Boscher, and even the awesome Atlus7 would be the first to admit that some of his spotlights are partially obsolete or, at least, incomplete.
The general level of play has gone way, way beyond what players discovered in the first few months the game came out. Most of the web site character creation and development advice hasn't been revised since then. If you are creating information for new players, you might want to run your controversial stuff across players here at this board, to sharpen, refine and revise. Wizardry8 players, in my experience, are very supportive of work to help improve the game experience for new players. I, myself, am working on some guides, too. I thought I had a place to post them, but maybe not now. Anyway, while supportive, players will, without hesitation, cut you to ribbons if you advise new players in ways they have found not to be true in their own playing experience. These are not shy people, and don't underestimate how much they know. There is a lot of expertise here and other places. Feel free to use it and us to help sharpen your work. |
I intend to post the information here (not on any other sites), unless of course there is some technical difficulty or the moderators/sys admin/owner does not wish it (I'll prob. do one post in multiple parts through edits). The game was so agrevating at the beginning w/ just the manual - I didn't enjoy barely surviving at every turn with the first party I created (and I could tell that this game could be very enjoyable). Then I jumped to resources like this site (several months ago) and found all sorts of information - but thats all it was, all sorts of information (searching and the tip section). If some people can find what I'm writing usefull or entertaining then thats great! At the very least it should offer several areas for discussion where others can feel free to rip it to shreads. (I actually approve of this - if the theory is weak/flawed then it should be exposed for what it is. This of course will allow it to "sharpen, refine and revise" on its own should others wish to participate.) The structure is that of an editorial (as it will be stated up front) that combines many of the tips that can already be found in the tips post - BUT it will provide them in what I hope will be a more coherent fashion (that others might find more useable). (Otherwise it would simply be a useless restatment.)
It will be ref. as a beginners guide (titled to that effect). Hopefully that should imply that it isn't for experienced players who are way beyond Boscher's or Altus 7's analysis, but I will of course include links to them because they are available, (or the only massed point of referance a google search away). Of course better material can often be found here or on other forums with a search, but like the tips section here it isn't really coherent and it typically encourages the "meta" hunt (something I find worthwhile to avoid). I guess then what I'm saying is that your are partially correct. But the real reason is that I want to help create for others what I was originally looking for after my first debacle with this game - and I hope that you and others will participate in that goal. (and what I was looking for isn't the format that Boscher or Altus 7 used.) |
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Meanwhile I think, offensive magic is fruitless without powercast, but I'm reluctant to go this route cause I'm afraid, that I'll end up with a less than stellar caster *and* a less than stellar fighter. So I would appreciate some hints/experience with your hybrids builds, esp. in full sized partys, where facing mobs above your level is the norm. Thanks in advance.. *Thread hijacking mode off* |
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WRT "less than stellar": again, if you want the best possible fighter, you have to use a Fighter; nobody else is going to match the damage output. Likewise, if you want the best possible Alchemist-book caster, you have to use an Alchemist. The point of the hybrids is that you can get 70-80% (at least) of *both* sides of the fence. As mentioned, I bring up INT and whatever skill is most directly applicable to the hybrid's non-magic-combat capability: SEN for a Ranger or a throwing Ninja, STR for everyone else. Once those cap, I bring up DEX and whatever is next-most useful: STR for the Ranger and throwing Ninja (assuming that you want the Ninja to provide some melee or load-carrying support), SPD for the others. Example: Hobbit Samurai Stat Start Expert Skill/Level STR 58 Power Strike 15 INT 64 Power Cast 13(12*) PIE 30 VIT 55 DEX 58 Reflextion 29 SPD 55 Snake Speed 28 SEN 50 Example: Mook Ranger STR 58 Power Strike 26 INT 64 Power Cast 13(12*) PIE 25 VIT 55 DEX 55 Reflextion 28 SPD 36 SEN 67 Eagle Eye 12 *when +5 INT fountain is used before reaching level 12 Depending on the party size and play style, you may or may not see those 3rd and 4th Expert skills. But you get Power Cast and the most-relevant physical-combat Expert skill by at least mid-game--long before you're likely to be spending much time in Ascension Peak, the Mountain Wilderness, or even the Rapax Castle. Compare: the fastest possible Power Cast (Faerie Mage) and fastest possible Power Strike (Lizard Fighter) are level 9; the Hobbit Samurai gets *both* by level 15. In my book, that qualifies as "not too shabby". Skill-point development follows a similar pattern: for the first 4 levels, points go into physical-combat academic and weapon skills; for the examples above, that would be Dual Weapons, Close Combat, and Sword for the Samurai and Ranged Combat, Sword, and Bow for the Ranger. Upon reaching level 5, points start going into the book skill--Wizardry for the Samurai, Alchemy for the Ranger. The 3 points taken away to go to the book skill are typically divided among the previous 3 skills, so they get 2 each level-up instead of 3. In the unlikely event that one starts falling behind, you might want to give it a boost for one level. Realistically, the Samurai is still going to be swinging those swords a lot, and the Ranger is going to be twanging that bow string all the time, so the combat-oriented academic and weapon skills should continue to increase pretty quickly. The 5 Rangers in my Rangerettes party just recently reached level 12; the two Mook sword-wielders and the (Hobbit) mace-user have Bow >=75 and Ranged Combat >= 100, and the two spear-swingers (Hobbit and Human) have Bow >= 72 and Ranged Combat >= 96. The two Mooks already have Power Cast up to 6. Does any of this help? |
Thanks, ChaosTheorist, that's what I was looking for.
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Excellent analysis ChaosTheorist!
They are at least one of the ways to develop a Warmage and Power Ranger. Those are great characters, no doubt about it. On balance, ZarahNeander, you should be aware that, while every caster "needs" Powercast, some sacrifice is involved for Hybrids, in this case pure Samurai and Ranger capability. There are "either/or" choices involved. Please understand that this is not a criticism of the above designs. In fact, I think they're pretty cool! The biggest sacrifice in the above is Dexterity, for most of the game. In the above, for the Samurai, Dexterity will remain at 58 (other than items) until the Level 16 Level-up, and in the case of the Ranger it will remain at 55 until the Level 13 Level-up. Also at those times, the Dexterity won't instantly be high, but will remain in the 60s and 70s for quite a few more levels. At Level 20, in the endgame, the Samurai Dexterity will be 73 and Ranger Dexterity 79. For a full size party where the end is not intentionally delayed, the game is over circa Levels 22-25, so Expert Skills that come at Levels 28 and 29 will not appear unless the party is smaller (as CT said). Since the Hybrid gets Level 7 spells at Level 22, at the very earliest, they may not be able to cast them at full effectiveness when the game ends (full party - no delaying end). As long as I have played this game, I have "championed" Powercast as "the" way to make offensive casting effective throughout the game. Nothing about that has changed. Recently a player (don't remember if on this board or vn) discovered that, as long as intelligence is pushed, later in the game, some damage spells remain 30-40% effective without Powercast, which can be used to soften up enemies slightly out of range instead of spending time running up to them (doing much more damage than a ranged attack). Elementals can be created without Powercast, Portals used, Buffs (like Razor Cloak) placed, Protections cast. These are all less effective without Powercast, but still effective. That allows, for example for the Ranger, maxing Dexterity and Senses, and only then Strength and Intelligence. Or, for the Samurai, Strength and Dexterity and then two of Senses, Speed or Intelligence. Both Dexterity and Senses add to "to hit" and increase the chance of combat skills improving. Also with more hits in battle there are more chances of increases in Skills through use including Critical Strike, for the Samurai. It would be interesting to develop two Samurai, side by side, one with Powercast and one without, in terms of fighting effectiveness (magic and non-magic). The right choice can depend upon your party and style of play. There are four Attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Speed and Senses, that greatly affect your fighting capabilities. Haste can help with Speed, for most purposes in most areas of the game. Dexterity is important if it increases your hits from 60% to 80%, but is less important when it increases hits from 90% to 93%. In other words, which you are hitting pretty much all the time then improving it further gives little gain. So what is more effective for your Hybrid character, giving them Powercast or focusing on their key fighting skills first, in early part of the game? My humble apologies, ZarahNeander, if this puts you right back into the dilema for the Hybrid. The fact is that something will not be fully effective at the end of a game ending at Levels 22-25, and you just have to decide, based upon your party and style of play, what that is to be. Perhaps ironically, it can be more effective in some ways, in some parties, to start with a magic character, who gets spells 4 whole levels earlier, and give them some fighting capability. They will never be more than fair to good at fighting, but there the sacrifices to get it are temporary and evaporate well before the end of the game. Of course defensively, most casters are pretty whimpy. [ 07-01-2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ] |
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I should have pointed out that the Ranger (along with the throwing Ninja) is perhaps the most difficult of the hybrids to develop, because you'd really like your Ranger to be really good at *three* things: Alchemist-book magic, ranged combat, *and* melee combat. As EEW points out, that really isn't possible, because there's not enough time to raise all of the necessary stats (STR, INT, DEX, SPD, SEN). In my case, I choose to put spell casting first, followed (closely) by ranged combat, which means I have no choice but to back-burner the melee-combat ability. Choosing to forego Power Cast and bring up DEX in lieu of INT to get a stronger hacker/defender is a perfectly legitimate alternative. Either flavor of Ranger pretty much has to go for strong ranged combat and early Eagle Eye, else why bring a Ranger at all? People generally don't expect their Lords, Valkyries, Samurais or Monks to be ranged-combat experts, so there's less to "give up" with those classes. |
ZarahNeander,
I differ with ChaosTheorist on this one (for a pure hybrid). First look at what their primary use will be: ALWAYS physical combat (otherwise go with a pure magic caster or a magic caster dualed to a magic aligned hybrid later). The magical portion will be a distant second (particularly with damage spells). (This isn't to say you can't have your cake and eat it to however - at least most of the time.) Next ascertain its primary form of physical combat. If its a character with formation at the front-line then you need to be able to take hits - which suggests a melee character with substantial hit points. If not then this suggests ranged physical combat. Choose your attributes to max according to the characters use. For instance a Ranger that will focus on ranged combat should look at maxing dexterity and speed first (hit rate and number of attacks). If you think it will be almost exclusivly ranged then the next attribute would be senses followed by strength. (If you intend to dabel in melee then I'd suggest strength followed by senses - but I wouldn't recomend this.) (Of course you might want a Ranger to be a melee expert who dables in ranged combat - which would suggest an alternative attribute concentration.) Now choose your race to fit this profile the best. As far as skills are concerned: physical combat skills are rather easy to increase even if your character is a senseless moron. Magic skills can be difficult to increase for hybrids because higher spell levels are not available until latter (the higher the spell level the faster the skill increase) - ALWAYS allot your skill points first to the magic realm (alchemy for ranger) and then distribute points in those magic skills that you use the least. (Of course train all skills as best you can.) Spells and Powercast. Obviously look for resistances, in addition however (if you can) utilize spells that work with your combat preferance. For ex. when utilizing a ranger as a ranged combat expert then fire off offensive spells like sleep or blinding flash. Even if they don't work you'll still increase your skills. If they do work then you will have a physical combat advantage with a ranged weapon (as well as a defensive advantage). If you need the particular offensive spell to work then look at your party: obviously if someone else has Powercast and the required spell then utilize that character; alternativly if you have a group of weak casters with the same spell then have 3 or more cast the same spell at the same time. I have often utilized this tech. with multiple rangers all at level 50 intelligence. If the monster group is near your level with around a 50% resistance (or less) AND each character fires off the spell at full force (assuming you have the ability) then typically more than 40% of the monster group(s) will sucumb to the spells effect (and because its at full power the spell lasts longer). I particularly love this tech. with magic casting monsters (pop off sleep x3 at full level). This technique typically does NOT work with a single high resistance monster like Nessie. (And of course this technique works well/better with strong magic casters.) Additionally when looking at hybrids, look for defensive spells (rather than offensive spells) to use. This is typically a far better solution (particularly with a Ranger ranged combat expert because of the alchemist book). At higher levels the ranger can use soul shield and element shield. As important - they most likely have Snakespeed and will be "speed" casters who have a better chance of getting up defenses before monsters will strike (something your other magic casters might not be able to do as quickly). Finally, you don't have resistances to counter here. All that said however, I can't really see a reason for choosing a pure hybrid unless its just something new for fun. Which ties in with ChaosTheorist's example of: if you want a fighter get a fighter, not a hybrid. |
ScottG, the Expert Skill, Snakespeed, gotten after Speed = natural 100, does not have any effect on any character other than the one that gets it.
Or were you referring to the Haste spell? If so, that also does not have any effect on the order of who will cast in the round it is cast. That means if you have slow or medium speed Soul and Element Shield casters, then Haste cast very quickly will not make them suddenly jump to the front of the line and cast their shields before initially faster enemies get their shot. There is actually very little reason for the Haste caster to be fast, since most of the effects take place in the next round. There are earlier posts on this and other boards concerning the awesome Haste Spell. It was two players, Shojo and Merkin, who discovered (or rather noticed) that casting Haste does not change spell casting order in that round. It does increase the number of swings per attack for attacks that have not yet taken place in that round. To get those shields up first, reliably, those casters need to be fast all on their own. In my parties the Soul and Element Shield casters are the only fast ones, with Snakespeed. All of the others (including the Bard who casts it) get fast only after Haste is cast. [ 07-02-2003, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ] |
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CT are you sure about this? Its been awhile since I've played that Ranger party, I was almost positive that 4th level element shield and soul shield were available. (if not, oh well...live and learn, my bad.) "edit* yup, just looked back - no soul shield (must have been the psion in that party....)
EEW... ummmm, yup Snakespeed is for that character only. (sorry if I wasn't clear enough.) so..... The concept is for any magic caster to raise the party's magical resistance before your opponents attack magically. To better acomplish this of course requires a high personal initiative - which in turn is dominated by the attribute Speed. Snake speed furthers this initiative (though at only half the rate of a speed attribute point allocation). Chances are most magic casters in the party have not developed this high personal initiative, (though in my opinion its prob. the most important attribute for a magic caster). In the Ranger example the speed attribute was one of the dominate attributes for its ranged attack ability. While your other casters may be loafing along with a low personal initiative, this Ranger/Alch. caster has a much higher probability of "getting it up" (see spell question above) before any magical damage happens to the party. [ 07-02-2003, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: ScottG ] |
Thanks for all the input, very interesting. Some notes.
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- I'm only talking about offensive spells (for hybrids) here. Powercast does very little for buffs, it increases the duration, but not the efficiency (can be verified with ele/soul shield, BoS). So if I want a defensive hybrid, I'm fine with the starting 55 int (small nitpicking, CT, the alch has 2 defensive spells: ele shield & BoS). - I'm aware that it isn't possible to build a jack of all trades, who instant-kills left & right *and* cast earthquake (7) in the next round. - I'm aware, that there's a window of opportunity for offensive hybrid magic, somewhere after Trynton, but before Rift. As I said, I never tried a hybrid with powercast, they might be fun, but from a munchkin's PoV, does it pay off? Or does it end like this: -- Round 4 --- Ranger1 casts boiling blood(6) at ironwood elder: boiling blood(6) does 34 dmg (that's pretty optimistic already) Ranger2 shoots seige arbalest(sp?) at ironwood elder 2x: Hits for 40 dmg. Hits for 36 dmg. INSTANT KILL!!! I'll see.I started a party (sam, nin, monk, valk, ascended the same setup before, so I can compare) with the goal to make them powerful powercasters (except the valk). Ignoring my instincts I took hobbit sam & mook ranger. After all, I'm a conservative old lady, who is hard pressed to believe that piety is soo useless for casters:). Now in Trynton & not surprisingly, they suck big time. The mook ranger can cast 4 yellow lvl 1 acid splashes in a row. I hoped, the Rapax patrols died of laughing, but instead, a caustic vine joined the fray. Hopefully there's no stiff opposition between me & the next rezz powders. Anyway.. Quote:
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Yes, ZarahNeander, those four levels are by far the biggest problem for a Hybrid trying to use magic to kill.
At Levels 1-4, a Power Level One Energy Blast doing a typical 3-7 damage can be effective when combined with Mind Blast by the Psionic, Acid Spash from an Alchemist and Make Wounds from a Priest. Monsters few in number, with 30 HP of damage each, or even a single foe with 100 HP are grist for that mill. However, when you are at Level 6 and facing half a Dozen Higardi Roustabouts with 80+ HP each, capable of doing several powerful blows per round, then two or three rounds of pin pricks like above only makes them giggle a bit as the party is rapidly crushed. On the other hand, if they have to contend with Whipping Rocks, Fireballs, Insanity and Web, it's a different situation. They are still tough, but now it's the party's turn to giggle when a couple get close enough to land a few blows. So, in a sense, the "timing is off a bit" for Hybrids becoming powerful magically. They have to rely on their fighting skills for the first four levels and, in practical terms, for several levels after that. I have used a Power Ranger, similar to what CT described, very effectively in one of my parties, but I also had a Mage, Alchemist, Priest, Psionic and Bard in that party so the Ranger's fledgling spells could be exercised without depending upon them to actually stop the enemies. One of the expert players here, Wereboar, played a 4 hybrid party, one from each school of magical mastery, and went for Powercast with all of them. He really enjoyed it, but said, at the time (if I remember his post correctly) that it was the most difficult game he ever played. There are three basic ways to play, which are ways of handling most opponents, and those are Melee, Ranged and Magic (defining the major way most enemies die, although all three are used). To use Magic to take out your foes, you need a lot of magic and you need it early. Several Hybrids and Fighters pretty much demand either Melee or Ranged as the major strategy, but you can have one or two of your Hybrids go the Powercast route. If you go with all Powercast Hybrids, and are skillfull enough to survive on just their limited early fighting skills, they will get very powerful later. For a Melee or Ranged emphasis, look to magic for protections (Magic Screen, Missle Shield, Armorplate, Guardian Angel, Bless, Soul Shield, Element Shield, Chameleon), counterpunches (Eye for Eye, Razor Cloak), healing (Heal Wounds, Cure Poison, Cure Paralysis, Stamina, Rest All, Heal All, Cure Lesser Condition,...), buffing (Superman, Haste, Enchanted Blade...), summon, (Summon Elemental), utility (Divine Trap, Detect Secrets, Light, Shadow Hound, Knock Knock, Portal...), crippling (Web, Paralyze, Toxic Cloud, Freeze Flesh, Freeze All, Itching Skin, etc.) and later thinning (Asphyxiation, Quicksand, Death Cloud, Death Wish, Instant Death and Turncoat). All of these support a Melee or Ranged party very well. The later reduces the number of enemies and, in the case of Turncoat actually increases the number of friends temporarily. Magic damage spells can also help some of the time, but more in a complementary or occasional use way. For a Magic emphasis party, there are enough single target damage spells to really add up and be plenty powerful enough to take out foes at the very low levels many are gotten (Energy Blast, Frost, Make Wounds, Acid Splash, Mind Stab, Crush,...). However it is the cone and area effect spells which are the power of these parties (Shrill Sound, Whipping Rocks, Whirlwind, Fireball, Iceball, Noxious Fumes, Psionic Blast, Holy Water, Ego Whip...). These are great for killing all enemies at once, a little bit each at a time. A very common sight after a couple or three rounds is when the number of foes drops from 12 down to 3, in a single attack, because they have all, pretty much, run out of HP. When that's the method, then a Ranger that takes out one or two foes with arrows matters very little, because that last Whipping Rocks or Fireball can take out 12 foes just as easily as 10. A good rule of thumb for character development when beginning this game is develop what your character is good at first. Even when doing that, Hybrids take a long time to become good at what they do best. Another is to look at your party as a whole and decide what the character you are developing needs to do within that party. ScottG, sorry but I don't think initiative has anything to do with Magic Resistance other than casting the shields. Magic resistance comes from natural resistances, Magic Screen, Soul and Element Shields, Iron Will, Items and a little bit from Piety. Piety, Iron Will, Items and Magic Screen do not involve Initiative in any way. It is only the shields that need to be cast fast, as noted above. High personal initiative is only needed for that. If it was the Soul and Element Shield Casters you were referring to, then I guess we are in agreement. In my parties I generally have two casters, one for each shield, with Speed=100, Snakespeed and good Senses (which also increases initiative). The other two are intentionally slow (Speed no higher than 55), so those precious Attribute points can go to other things. During most of the game their Speed will be 125 starting in round two anyway. [ 07-02-2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ] |
Holy long post Batman!
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Yeah. I've been thinking that, too. Maybe it's time to back off for a while.
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EEW, your posts are always welcome. And they can be as long as you like. Hey, people don't have to read it if they don't want your insightful conmments! I enjoy your magic-heavy analysis. It's another strategy people should try if they want something new in this game.
[ 07-03-2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ] |
I think the magic issue is also a lazines issue. I do get tired of entering the spells everytime. They should have made some hot keys or something. I think that's the main reason I go more for fighters. Just walk in there and get it done.
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Let's face it, people: melee-heavy parties in this game are EASY. Put a Fighter or two, a Rogue, maybe a Samurai or Lord or a melee-oriented Monk on the front line, build up their flogging skills and hit points, back them up with a Priest, Bishop, or even a Valkyrie or another Lord, and you can beat to death in short order pretty much anything you come across at normal game-finishing levels. Use a Bishop or someone else who can cast the Mage-book buffs and prots and it gets even easier. But what's the point? Most of us have "been there, done that", either putting together our own or going with any of a number of "recommended" parties--almost all of which are really physical-combat parties with a bit of auxiliary and supporting magic. Even the Wiz8 "Sample Party" falls into this category: it might look "balanced" to the uninformed, but a closer look reveals that it has 3 physical-combat specialists, 1 healer, 1 miscellaneous caster, and only 1 true offensive-magic caster. It's "balanced" somewhere around the 70/30 point. The Priest and Bard do eventually get some meaningful damaging-magic firepower--about 80% of the way through the game. So yes, you can build your hybrids with a focus exclusively on physical combat. Then you'll have to make tough decisions like "Hmm; should I beat them to death with my Fighter's sword, or beat them to death with my Samurai's swords, or beat them to death with my Monk's hands and feet, or beat them to death....". As someone pointed out, the name of the game isn't "Melee8". |
OK, but, what are you really playing for? To kick some butt and win the game, right! It doesn't matter how you get it done, but why would you take a butch of wimps who are going to die all the time; doesn't sound like much fun to me. I took 3 Priests, 1 Bard, 1 Alchemist, 1 Mage. At lvl 9 I made everyone except the Bard a fighter. Now I have good protection, combat and healing spells and my party kicks some butt. I changed my Bard at lvl 12 to a fighter and things are working well. The instant kill spells are about the only good offensive spells later on anyway. I never take Monks or Ninja or Samurai. Tried them once and they just didn't impress me. I will definatly take them again but I think I'll start them in their pure mage class first and see if that's worth it.
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The Monk, Samurai, and Ninja are delayed gratification characters in a normal game. The critical hits start occurring regularly very late in the game, but as I've seen it pointed out previously, critical hits (when reasonably predictable) are just as useful as a Liz Fighter with a monster sword. IMHO, the critical hits are even better because they're just plain impressive.
I think that the unfortunate point in all of this is that the game is unbalanced. Fighters get powerful too quickly. Hybrids get powerful too late. You can divide the party among classes, but then some characters are pulling serious weight early while others are experience leeches. 2 cents. |
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Yes, it's fun to "bash skulls" a lot on your first or second trip; but bashing those same skulls the same way with the same characters and the same weapons a dozen times over is something I don't even want to think about. I *know* I can walk through the game with the melee-heavy party mentioned earlier, and I *know* exactly how every step of the way will play out. I'm *pretty sure* I can make it to Ascension with an all-magic party, and I *think* I have a handle on how to do it; which one sounds more interesting to you? |
I agree, CT. The replay-ability is really from the party you choose. I take time to create each as different from previous ones as I can. Changing the appearances, names, voices, attitudes and class adds "spice" that flavors it. My party of 3 martial artists and a bishop is now lev 11 and those crits are starting to kick in. We are still relatively weak, but it is enjoyable to see them get better and better. And it is a challenge.
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ZN - (I see it a lot) always look at monster's resistance, I think that in most cases you will find a weakness of about 50% in one area (not that you'll always have a spell available for that one area though). If I remember correctly Reyjinn are suseptable to Divinity spells (which is why their acompanying posse usually includes a caster that imeadiatly whips up soul shield).
EEW - yup we were tracking (intending to say the same thing - apparently my style of writing can be obtuse). CT - I believe I've stated as much b4 (about the ease/vs fun), everyone's perspective will of course differ on this. The melee8 ref. wasn't quite so trivial. It was intended to suggest that without a modicum of magic (especially spell protection), AND at a level for a particular point in the game, anyone will have severe difficulties - i.e. you need your wizardry to survive. It wasn't to suggest that in order to have fun (even as an experienced player) you need to focus on offensive magic. Hybrids can be quite interesting without magic at all, i.e. insta-kill is a fascination all its own. The strictures of weapons types, armor, ect. are also quite fascinating. Furthermore it is a mistake to simply say that melee heavy parties are easy - this really depends on the way the characters and the party is developed (and which characters are utilized). A hybrid developed to top-out their insta-kill ability early, AS a primary melee'er, is generally NOT easy for about the first 40% of the game (even with several such characters, but with no meatshields). Perhaps this then is why you consider the first part of the game to be so difficult? It appears that you will sacrifice ease of play early on for ease of play latter on (thats a choice on your part - others may not wish to do this). Furthermore I would never call this game EASY, in fact this is "easily" the most difficult RPG experience I've ever had - it encourages "Power-Gaming". If you look at the hybrid character as developed by those who created the game - then of course physical combat for these hybrids takes precedence. If you look at the characters from a traditional standpoint - then of course physical combat takes precedence. If you want, (and find it more interesting to do so), a hybrid that is 50/50 then your "swimming upstream". My suggestion for a 50/50 is also "swimming up stream" (I just think it will get their faster and better with the right party - i.e the dualed hybrid). Additionally, you seem to be confusing a balanced party with a balanced OFFENSIVE party (they are not the same thing). Finally, have most been there done that (that are currently viewing this forum)? Please consider those that checkout the board but don't participate. I didn't start playing this game until about 4 months ago. Oh well, just my two bits. |
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[ 07-05-2003, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: ChaosTheorist ] |
sure, it most certainly isn't the only way that they can be developed - I'd totally agree with that. For me though the quest is for the optimal way (at least in most situations - no such thing as an absolute there either).
Sorry about the confusion on the other - I thought that you were the one suggesting that Greggor was one of the most difficult battles in the game. [ 07-05-2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: ScottG ] |
Gregor can be difficult, but there is not alot of strategy involved if you are lev 1 or 2. You hope for the best luck, reload if necessary, or level up to where you can handle him (it?). He's notable for being the first more difficult battle, especially if you don't lev past 2 or 3. Any battle can be very difficult if the enemy is in sufficient numbers, is higher than you by enough levels (up to mid-game), and/or catches you in a vulnerable condition.
For example, Souleater was hard for me at first game until I developed a strategy. Now I get him in the first round or two. Nessie can be difficult but I just wait til I'm a little more experienced. Some have succeeded in wiping out the Umpani from the top down in Mt. Gigas. I bet that would be hard. There can be many hard battles in this game, or you can play it safe and work on your magic and combat skills in safer zones first. It's a matter of preference, which is a good thing about this game. It doesn't force the steepness of your learning curve. I try for a middle ground, to see what I can get away with but back off if it becomes too frustrating. A caveat: if your starting party is inherently weak, or is not developed properly, or you wander into tough areas too early, you are guaranteed some hard battles. [ 07-05-2003, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ] |
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I think I didn't explain myself well in my last post. What I meant by "it doesn't matter how you get it done" is that you have the freedom to do it any way you want! Like my Valkerie party for example. I thought they would be much better hitters than they were and I took them all the way to lvl 19 only to find they didn't hit very well and their spells were not that good either. So, what'a ya' do, you make up a brand new party!
I still stand by the kicking butt part though; whether it's high damage from fighters, critical strikes or those great insta' kill spells, it's all fun! |
I *know* I can walk through the game with the melee-heavy party mentioned earlier, and I *know* exactly how every step of the way will play out. I'm *pretty sure* I can make it to Ascension with an all-magic party, and I *think* I have a handle on how to do it; which one sounds more interesting to you?
(How do you guys quote these replies?) It can't be just cut and past right? Anyway, I've tried the melee heavy parties and in a lot of ways they are very good; but, you run into enemies like Rynjin that mess with your mind and you're in big trouble (so I've found)! So now I have all pure casters which I will switch at some point to Lords, Samurai and Ninja. This may not even work later in the game but who cares; I'll just start over and try something else. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't much care for getting finished anyway. |
We begin the game and play to the end, but how much time is spent at the beginning or end of the game?
Farseer, there is nothing wrong with a love of Melee. Given todays selections of games, it is a fortunate preferrence to have. I envy you the availability of that which you love. Also, I took no offense at your playful Batman jibe. If you really want to insult me you need to be very clear about it, or I just won't take offense. I assume you were just going... "whew," and being playful. Actually, there is an apporopriate balance to posting, just as there is to any character development and playing the game itself. My posts do tend to be long, but I can be more discriminate as to when and how much. Ziggurat: "EEW, your posts are always welcome..." Thank you my friend! There are lots of reasons to try numerous ways to approach the game. I play Magic-Heavy partys (Balanced ones!) because, in addition to liking them and in spite of the time it takes to set up spells each round, they are also the quickest, easiest, and, IMO, most fun way to win the game, even on Expert Mode! [ 07-08-2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ] |
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WRT finishing: yeah, I start 4-5 parties for every one I actually get to Ascension. |
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