The second time throught the game I encountered a bug. I choose to do both the trang and umpani quests. I went to Arnika and paid of He'li's with a bribe and saved soon after. But then when I went to Z'ant he got angry and attacked me. Is there a solution to this bug? I just hate that I saved after bribing He'li.

I don't know the solution once you make the T'Rang mad at you. I have had this happen, too, for reasons I am not sure about. In Z'Ant's first quest he does tell you not to engage the Umpani, and if you try to go directly to the T'Rang tranporter you take about a one-in-three chance of permanently angering them when you fight the Overmind (or whatever).

I do the T'Rang quests up to their alliance with the Mook before I do the Umpani ones for this very reason. I did finish a game without the T'Rang, but you lose some XP opportunities.

[ 06-22-2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

There's no need to go through the "restricted area" to get to the T'Rang teleporter; you can go "up and over" to get there. If that doesn't compute, you haven't finished exploring all of Marten's Bluff.

To avoid being caught by Z'Ant, always initiate conversation with him by clicking the desired item on him. Since all of Z'Ant's quests (except the final one, which you won't do anyway) are of the "go get this and bring it back to me" variety, you'll always have something to use to start the talking.

Does this mean you can give Z'Ant items when he is in the red?? My experience is they all attack.

I avoid the restricted area by going thru the mine tunnel. It actually works out OK, the pacing is right.

A good question is how you can make good with the T'Rang when you mistakenly ally with the Umpani first.

I always avoided He'li once I started on the T'rang/Umpani quests.

Do be aware that there is a traitor among the Umpani; some people have mentioned he could turn you in to Z'Ant. Dunno about that. Generally, I blew his cover and had him arrested. That seemed to ensure smooth sailing for everything else.

<center>Nightowl2</center>

No; I meant that you can avoid fighting the T'Rang guarding the "restricted area", thus avoiding turning Z'Ant hostile. Once he's hostile, I think that's it for T'Rang-related questing.

I think that's the more typical sequence; fortunately, it's not the only option.

It isn't a "mistake" to sign up with the Umpani first; I have done that all but 1 time, I think. Z'Ant won't bust you as a double agent until after you've completed his first two missions, even if you're an Umpani recruit the first time you see him. He'll definitely blow the whistle on you when you come back from the Mook-letter mission.

I just (like, 2 minutes ago) brought my Rangerettes party into the Bluff. Their history is as follows:
Monestary
Arnika
Umpani Base Camp; joined up with Umpani
Marten's Bluff via Mountain Wilderness, SE Wilderness, Swamp. IOW, We haven't seen He'Li since we signed up with the Umpani

I clicked on Z'Ant (empty-handed) for the initial contact; got the "get flag" mission. Clicked on him again, empty-handed. He said "I hope you have the flag". Gave him the flag; got Rapax assassin mission; exited conversation. Clicked on him again, empty-handed. He said "I hope you have killed the Rapax". Gave him the head; got Mook-letter mission; exited conversation. Clicked on him again, still empty-handed. He said "How strange; my watcherss report that the device is still there".

So, as nearly as I can tell, Z'ant won't bust you as a double agent until you return after completing the business with the Mook. From that point on, you have to initiate the conversation by clicking the appropriate object on him. And it must be the appropriate object; specifically, I once clicked the wrong shiny globe on him, and got the "Kill them!" speech.

I think i played about 20 games. I do about the same sequence of Umpani/T'rang missions eacht time. It happened twice to me that z'ant attacked me, although i don't think i did anything different. I bribed He'Li each time.

What item do you use when you bring him the coordinates of savants ship? Thats the point where z'ant caught me.

I stay away from He'Li too. Even though in the last game nobody became hostile toward me even though I spoke to her regularly (and payed her off).

I did take out a hit on her though; she's still alive; for now.

I did get a surprise from "The Don's" boys. I had to pay them to keep quiet about the switched Chaos Molari.

[ 06-25-2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Variol (Farseer) Elmwood ]

I think there's a small chance that Z'ant discovers the double agent status, no matter what you do. In various games, I bribed He'li, avoided He'li, turned Kunat in, avoided Kunat etc. Possibly missed some permutations. Avoiding He'li & turning Kunat in isn't fire-proof.

Chaos Molieri. He says something like: 'I want you to keep it'.

Interesting... I've always initiated the dialogue with Z'Ant without any items. I've completed now all T'Rang/Umpani Quests up to Black Ship coordinates / rescue of the missed soldiers and Z'Ant seems to love my party.

After the first Quests I paid He'Li and she never complained again.

To ZarahNeander:
I give Z'ant the Choas Moliri when he sends me to the mooks, and get that reply.
But the next mission is to bring the coordinates of savants ship, and i have to enter them in dialog.
Or do you give him the orb twice, and he accepts it?

To Silpion:
Thats normal. But sometimes (for me, in game number 15 and 17 or the like), z'ant finds it out. I'm quite sure i didn't anything different than in the other games; it seems to be a rare random effect.

What item do you use when you bring him the coordinates of savants ship? Thats the point where z'ant caught me. </font>[/QUOTE]Either of the black boxes. If you use the damaged one, he'll say something about it being burned to a crisp. I don't recall what he says when you use the good one. Either way, you're now in conversation mode so you can give him the coordinates. Using this method, I've never gotten caught by Z'Ant. If I don't use this method, I always get caught after the Mook-house job.

Thanks for the hint. I thought i need to completely avoid normal conversation to be safe.

Reading this post again, I think maybe Chaos was hinting at running past the T'rang in the restricted area (with an Overmind, Assassin and some Watchers) to get to the transporter without offending them. I have tried this a few times, and timing is the word. They chase you and you will be lucky to get to a non-combat area or not be killed. The next room has to have an open door or you have to shut a door behind you (not sure if you can do that in combat, pretty sure you can't). If that second door is randomly open for a pesky little T'rang, you may beat this roadblock to the transporter without angering the T'rang. Is this what CT meant?

Pretty much. Except that you don't have to "red-ify" the T'Rang guarding the area at all. If you go right up to (but not into) the doorway, initiate combat mode, and select the "Run" action, you can run all the way through the room in one round. The T'Rang guard-detail leader will give you the "This area is resstricted" warning; just hold Shift+Down Arrow to run backwards out the door. Once you're through the room they're in, you're home; apparently they don't care that you're now in the other hallway, and that you had to go through their "restricted" area to get there. The doorway into the Monitor room isn't locked; to get through the next doorway to the teleporter, just wait for the Monitor to spit out a Younger and follow it through.

You can use the same technique to get the Book of Crushing and Gleaming Sword in the back corner of the "restricted area" room: initiate combat (in Phased mode), select run, start the round, and move forward until you can grab the items; turn around and use the remaining movement to run back out. That's also how I stole their Mindblast Rod "secret weapon": play Pied Piper to a group of Deathsting Apuses, and the two T'Rang guarding the door to the other "restricted area" will high-tail it down the road; use fake combat/run to dash in and get the Mindblast Rod. Same for getting Diamond Eyes from the Mountain Wilderness barrow, etc., etc.

Thanks, CT. I think I will try it next round. BTW, you can get the other items in the "restricted area" just by sneaking around them, hugging the walls, without any special trick. Initiating combat and backing away sounds like a plan. Not sure about the "shift-down", I reconfigured the movements, and I'm not sure if you need phased combat mode to get by them but I suspect you do.

You need Phased any time you need to "run slowly" in combat; in Continuous, the movement bar counts down whether you're moving or not, and in these situations you need to "use up" the movement allotment in a controlled manner. In Continuous you'd end up running out of movement while still in the room, and things would get exciting.

Got it.

I always used phased combat in this game and forgot it was called that. I still think of it as turn-based combat. I think in M&M 9 I had to use continuous combat to get by a rough spot, or maybe it was W&W. I haven't used the "initiate combat and choose run" option. I may want to use it sometimes when I want to run first before I am penned in. Or, in this particular situation. Except for getting RFS and getting the combat skill (and to avoid p'ing off the T'Rang), I don't see a big reason for going to the mines.

[ 06-26-2003, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

Yeah, I suspect I won't be seeing much of the Mine Tunnels any more either. I've gotten away from using RPCs the majority of the time, and you can build a better Monk than RFS. Without some other "have to have", or even "really nice to have" in that area, why bother?