OK, here it is:

I've tried starting a successful game of Wizardry 8 three times (the third time being somewhat successful actually). My problem is this: I just don't understand the game!

My first party got wiped out basically every fight (2 samurai, a ninja, a gadgeteer, a mage and a priest) so I had to reload.. after being slaughtered by poppies on Arnika road for the umpteenth time I gave up and started a new, more combat oriented group (I thought) featuring characters like oh... fighters, ninjas, samurai.. then I found that I lacked healing ability and some other essentials, like magic buffs. After a horrible dual class and some hair-ripping, I decided to try one more time. That's when I came up with this wonderful combination: 2 dracon fighters, 1 hobbit rogue, 1 mook ranger, 1 dwarven priest and an elven mage.

They too were getting sorely owned in the beginning of the game, but now at level 10 or so things are looking up. Barely. I can kill fairies without anyone dying at least.

I've browsed the forum countless times looking for clues to success, but without avail. Don't get me wrong, all the tips are probably great. My theory is that I'm just a total retard when it comes to Wizardry. Consider also that I'm actually playing on EASY! After dying 20 times on my way to Arnika I actually thought the game was bugged and had locked on hard or something... aaaanyway, my question is this:

Is there a foolproof party? A party that features basically all the classes and races you need for the kickass weapons and items? AND a party that doesn't die around every corner?

I know this is a tough one, but I'm desperate [img]tongue.gif[/img] I love the game (for some odd reason) and I'd really like to be able to play it through...

And I'm not a retard at every game, I've successfully played through every Might and Magic game since number 4, all the Baldur's Gate games (including the Icewind Dale series) and a number of other AD&D games like the EOB series... it's just that in Wizardry I'm friggin stumped [img]tongue.gif[/img]

So... rant all you want, call me a total idiot n00b, flame me, piss on my plants and kill my cat, but PLEASE! Give me an example of the ultimate party [img]tongue.gif[/img]

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I played through Morrowind lots of times too, never having any problems with that... a theory I have is that Wizardry is very non-linear, is that so? That would explain my failure at quests and such, simply because I approach it the wrong way... anyway... doh [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-13-2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Ragash ]

The EASY answer is, of course, yes. You are an idiot. The REAL answer is that this game has strategic and tactical elements that make it more complicated than it seems. In my first game, I kept getting killed on the way to Arnika. Umpteen strong plants, wasps and bandits, not to mention soldier ants with a killer queen were wiping me out. So, the first trick I learned is not to level up past lev 3 until you get to Arnika's gate. Second is to run if you can if you are outmatched. Third is to use the landscape, hug those mountains and find those crevices to make them attack one by one.

Others: Avoid the Arnika-Trynton road at night if you don't like thousands of chomping bats. Go back to the previous area and rest a cycle or two to generate different monsters. You get my drift. It's not you. This game was designed to have no easy way to win. It requires a balanced party with some strengths and some thoughtful maneuvering. My two cents. P.S. Leave the cat alone, he has powerful friends on the planet Catalopia and they would NOT be amused.

[ 06-13-2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

Yep, the game is non-linear. However, that oughtn't to be a problem, since the Might & Magic games are like that, too.

Anyway, from the monastery to Arnika, your party should be no higher than level 5. Some would say even lower. The critters are based, in part, on your level. I say "in part" because there will be areas your group will find too tough for awhile.

Save before you leave the monastery. Monsters are a random mix. If you find the creatures too hard no matter what, you can restore and try again.

There's a house you can't get into along the road. I've been able to rest up behind it without being disturbed.

Arnika should not be all that difficult. Stay there awhile and work on building up levels and skills.

As it is, your main problem may be poor development of your characters rather than a poor mix of classes. It's been too long since I played for me to recall all the details, but I'm sure some of the others here will post some tips for bringing your merry band up to peak performance.

<center>Nightowl2</center>

Actually, I've made it through Arnika, did most of the things there (I think, who knows? ;) ) and went to Trynton.. now I'm running around the branches, finding marbles and orbs and balls not knowing WHAT to do.. then I found a gadgeteer who asked me if wossname sent me and told me to kill some rats. You probably know what I'm talking about, but the above is about as much as I know of the matter [img]tongue.gif[/img] I'm not asking for an explanation of it, I'm just giving an example of how I confused I am.

And I never found the Might and Magic games linear in that way... you'd get a quest telling you where to go, and if you were too weak to do it you'd just go somewhere else, find another quest, do that instead, level up and THEN come back to do the first quest.. in Wizardry, the monsters level up when you do which makes the strategic element even harder, and I was never a Red Alert wiz ;) And I suck at chess [img]tongue.gif[/img]

So... no elite party suggestions? ;)

I'm sure many here can give you their suggestions on elite best parties. For me, using a party of 6, I like to have 2 or 3 strong mellee characters. I don't go for fighters mostly (no magic for healing), but they are the best. Next is Lord and Valkyrie. Lord has a dual weapon bonus, Valkyrie can survive two deaths in a battle before she really snuffs it. A Rogue is a necessity and they are great fighters with their backstab which amplifies the power of the attack (2x or even 5x later). For the buff spells you need a bishop. Some go for mage and priest (and alchemist or psionic). A bishop or two is enough. The bard is easier to develop than a gadgeteer and has great instruments later on. Even the first one, Sleep, is helpful in the early game.

So I would say a good starting party would be (races are just my preferences): a Lord (Lizardman, Human, Rawulf...), Valkyrie (Human or Felpur), Rogue (Hobbit or Human), Bard (Hobbit or Human) and Bishop (Elf or Faerie). That leaves one slot for your choice (Ranger, Gadgeteer, Alchemist, Priest, Samurai, Ninja, ...).

IMO, a strongest party would be 3 fighters, a rogue and two bishops (with each bishop specializing in opposite magics). But this would be not quite as fun.

[ 06-14-2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

Interesting, you classify a rogue as a fighter? It makes sense, actually... thanks a lot, Ziggurat, I'm going to try that now [img]smile.gif[/img] More suggestions appreciated! [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: Creating the party as I write this, I think I'll go with the supplementary char of a fairy ninja to be able to use the cane of corpus I've heard so much about [img]tongue.gif[/img] I'll also have a good throwing weapons char... good plan?

[ 06-13-2003, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Ragash ]

One thing you might not have noticed is the party formation. Wizardry is the first game I saw where you traveled in a group but chjaracter placement mattered. Click on the little circle with the dots in it and arrange your party to defend you weak casters with your fighter types. Then like the other guys said keep close to the walls and watch your radar, and as soon as the mythology notice comes up start trying to manuever around to get a good fighting spot. Keep your spellcasters casting as much as possible and get a bard for your first time through, cuz the 2 instruments he gets at the start are a huge boost. Anyways, it takes a little getting used to. But choose missle shield as soon as possible and always cast it and the other boosts.

Cornbread

Thanks Cornbread, I did notice the battle formation thingy, but I never actually rearranged it in battle.. mostly because I was surrounded I realize now, but with the tip concerning walls and crevices things are bound to get easier.

Also, speaking of spells.. which ones are critical to choose in the beginning and which ones can I buy once I arrive at Arnika? I mean, which ones are CRITICAL to learn and which ones are RECOMMENDED for purchase.. I understand if a spell like Light is unnecessary to waste a spell pick on, obviously.

Wow, already Elite Waterdeep Guard and still a useless noob [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Ragash,

You are not a total idiot. You are, however, someone who did not read and understand the Game Manual. Read the manual! The description of Party Formation and combat is found on pages 70-71.

If you want to know how to correctly develop characters, a good site to read is: http://www.geocities.com/jandrall/

There are many sites that provide walkthroughs for this difficult game. I don't recommend them. The game is much more satisfying if you tough it out.

The party that I'd recommend to you (and I've played several to completion):
2 Lizardman Fighters (use only swords with them)
1 Rogue, Ninja, or Bard (to pick locks and disarm chests)
1 Ranger (you'll need the scouting ability)
1 Priest (the best healer)
1 Bishop (access to all spell books)

If you don't know what to choose, hobbits are a safe bet for almost all non-spell casters. Again though, read the book or use the site above for individualized choices.

I'd put the fighters up front, the lock-picker on one flank, the ranger on the other, the priest in the back, and the bishop in the middle. The Bishop is a weakling and should be shielded from physical combat as much as possible early on.

Spells you need to get early: Heal Wounds, Armorplate, Missile Shield, Enchanted Blade, Cure Poison. Before picking any others, buy every spell book available from the merchants in Arnika and other locations. You'll want to hoard your spell picks until you read higher levels. Eventual must-have spells (my opinion): Soul Shield, Element Shield, Haste, Cure Disease, Shadow Hound, Set/Return to Portal, X-Ray, Heal All, Restoration, Resurrection.

Hybrid characters are more difficult to develop. Which characters are hybrids? Lords, Samurais, Ninjas, Valkyries, Monks, Bishops. They level up more slowly and as such, get hit points more slowly. I have recommended 2 hybrids to you because:
1) Until you understand what spells are worthwhile, you'll want access to every spellbook and the Bishop gives you this.
2) You'll eventually want to play a Faerie Ninja. You might as well consider one for your first game.

If you avoid leveling up until Arnika, then take your level-ups just outside the gate. Arnika can get strange if you're walking around with available level-ups.

Finally, have fun and use the Wiz8 forums. Most everyone is polite, patient, and helpful.

Well, I started about 4-5 times before I bothered to finish the game.
I don't think I'm an idiot (in fact I know I'm not) but I either wasn't
comfortable with the game or the party or I don't know what. It took me a
long time to learn the tricks and I'm still learning.
In fact I just noticed at level 6, that my fighter wasn't set on berserk
mode for combat. I wondered why he wasn't doing much damage. (ok, maybe I'm
a little forgetful). But there's so much to think about that it can happen.
I was so focused on getting my spell casters casting every round I forgot
about the fighter.
So just play and if it doesn't "feel" right, start again! The big bad guy
isn't going anywhere and you'll find a party you'll take all the way.
Happy gaming bro'.

My party consisted of 2 fighters, a samuri, a mage, and a cleric. I have breezed through this game on normal setting since the start. It seems to be a good mix of everything.

Minor correction: the Bishop is not a hybrid caster; it's a specialist caster like the Priest, Mage, et. al. (gets spells from Level 1), but is on the slowest level-up schedule, along with the Ninja. Conversely, the Ranger *is* a hybrid caster (gets spells at Level 5). Specialist casters, except the Bishop, are on the 1.2x XP scale; hybrid casters, except the Ninja, are on the 1.4x XP scale; the Bishop and Ninja are on the 1.6x scale.

You're right, tuckyboy... I'm not exactly an avid manual reader [img]tongue.gif[/img] I didn't even read the race bonus table the first time I made a party, only the second time around and it made things a bit easier. Everyone's been stressing the point that I should read the manual at least twice to understand it completely, but it's not until now that you bring it up that I understand the importance of it. I guess I'll give it a go, even the lvl 10 chars I have now may be good enough after a read-through of the good book. Unless I've totally messed up with the character development.

Great posts, by the way, by all of you [img]smile.gif[/img] Things are getting a bit more clear.

I've also noticed that I think the whole monastery-road to arnika-arnika part is the most fun to play because the characters develop fast in the beginning of the game. Another reason may be that I never played further except with my current party [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Yes, it's great fun to start over with a new party. That's why this game endures. Or, I should say, a big part of it. The balance and options and strategy have to be there, too!

[ 06-14-2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

The problem I have, I think, is that you can't really relax. Ever. There are always monsters around the corner, Dominus must be completely saturated with them. If you rest, you're ambushed by zillions of Rapax or whatever, and get killed. Mostly because you're already damaged when you rest, why else would you camp? Playing a game, for me, is recreation. I get enough stress at work... normally I wouldn't even play a game like this, but the story and the world is so compelling I can't stop. That's probably why I'm looking for short-cuts and so called "ultimate parties" to get me through it. Maybe I'm not using magic enough, I hardly ever buff and I never use offensive magic (because it doesn't do a percent of the damage my berserking fighters do). I'll still keep trying though, with the parties you tell me to try [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I really admire the people who get a party to ascension on iron man. To me it seems impossible ;)

I tend to take the game slow, savoring it. Yes, there is some stress. But not like a first person shooter in real-time. Those are too stressful for me. I build up my healing abilities to avoid resting too much. AS you mentioned, resting spawns more enemies. In certain areas, especially with the Rapax, you have to grit your teeth and fight it out. Getting Templar status certainly helps there, but after you clean out the Away Camp you have to fight again. But you can always transport to a place of rest (if you can) and try again. Or at least find a defensible spot and rest in tiny microsleeps, saving as you go, to avoid the big surprise attack.

I find looking at my stats and seeing who is going up next and what they need to improve is a nice contrast to the fighting, restful in a way.

Using protection spells is absolutely required for me. I have at least four at max at all times: Missile Shield, Magic Screen, Armorplate and Enchanted Blade. I also include X-ray when I have it. If I know an attack is coming I put on Chameleon (short lived) to get the first move. Before resting, the Shadow of the Wolf (or whatever) prevents them from sneaking up on you. These spells do help.

[ 06-14-2003, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

Absolutely right. Buffs are critical to success in this game. Never go anywhere without them. Some of the high-level damage spells are good, too. For that matter, so are a couple of the lower-level ones, like insanity. That was always one of my favorites, along with the high-level one, whose name escapes me at the moment. Nothing like having the critters beat on each other istead of you ;)

<center>Nightowl2</center>

Ragash,

I'm with Ziggurat and Nightowl2. Keeping buffing spells up at all times is crucial. Without them, you will suffer tremendously. Later on in the game, you'll pick up the Element Shield and Soul Shield spells. These are only good during combat, but you'll find them indispensible if you want to stay alive and not spend all of your time resting/healing/using potions.

The side benefit of keping spells going constantly (including Chameleon, X-Ray, Identify Secrets, etc) is that you'll continue to improve your magic ability. The easiest example is the Identify Item spell. By the time you get the spell, you might be lugging around 30-40 items that are unidentified. If you identify all that you can, rest, and repeat as much as needed, you'll pick up substantial gains in your mental realm. This beats levelling up repeatedly and dumping precious points into a realm.

If you haven't noticed this yet, monsters can't open doors. This means that in places like Arnika, if you close yourself into a room or building (i.e. go inside and close the door behind you), that you can rest over and over without being attacked.

My thanks to ChaosTheorist for the comments on hybrids. Silly misstatements on my part.

Enjoy,
tuck

Every once in a great while they will, at least in some locations. I was running around the Rattkin tree with my "no magic" party a few weeks back, and had just finished an extended round-and-round with a few thousand wasps (OK, maybe not quite that many, but it sure seemed like it). So I went into one of the houses and shut the door behind me. Nice and safe, snooze time. Clang! The door opened and 6 Rattkin Eliminators were standing right in my face! Boy was I surprised--and not in a good way. That's the only time I remember this happening in the more-than-two-dozen parties I've taken that far. No idea if there are particular houses that are considered part of the patrol route or what, but they sure caught me out on that one.

ChaosTheorist,

I was always suprised that this never happened to me, but I've played 8 parties to completion and never seen this. The most suprising was a scenario in which I camped next to a window in Arnika while the Higardi bandits stomped around on the other side of the window looking annoyed. I figured that they might try the door, but they never did.

I was attacked once while camping in Braffit's temple, so I don't camp there anymore.

- tuck

I've been hit in Braffit's temple and after fighting the breeders in the breeder room. I tested this out (I happened to be there getting the "thing" from the don) and no house is safe in the ratkin branches after you kill the breeders from any of the ratkin, they sniff you out and the doors open.
Just my 1 cent worth (it wasn't quite worth 2...) [img]smile.gif[/img]
PPG

Listen to me! These guys don't know anything and they're just trying to confuse you!

Ha, Ha, just a little tease there, (Variol is a halfling you know).

Ragash, you wild and crazy frustrated dude; I started this game over more times than I care to count. Why, you ask; 'cos finishing the game is the least of my concerns. I try different parties, some I like, some I don't.
Right now I have an all female party of 4 Valkerie Dwarfs, 1 Hobbit Ranger (I can't believe they actually used the word "Hobbit", huh) and 1 Hobbit Rogue. I'm having quite a lot of fun so far and I'm only at Lvl:7.
The combinations are scarry to think about and that's the real joy of this game for me.
So don't get down, just mess around with parties and see how they feel for you.

P.S. I love the M&M series myself, but having played this a lot lately I'd be hard pressed to pick a fav. now.

P.P.S Just check all my posts to see how much these guys (and gals?) have helped me with the same sort of stuff.