Anyone have any experience with this race/class combination?

Am thinking I want my 2 bishops-to-possibly-be to have snakespeed and it looks like Felpurrs can get there the fastest. They might get powercast a level or two after say an Elf bishop which is the other race I am thinking about, but powercast seems to rise up very quickly compared to snakespeed.

Can't remember anyone trying this out, just want to see if anyone has done it with any success, tend to hear people make faerie and elf bishops the most, with some gnomes (heard of rawulfs rarely too).

Also how about best race for a Priest? I am leaning heavily towards Rawulf now. Beyond Piety, what would you say the best stat is to raise up first and why?

I like it. You can even ignore Pi until after you get max Sp and not miss out on that much recovery, the req'd 55 does well enough; if you get Snakespeed at L12, you can then get Powercast at 15 and start on Dx, finishing Pi at 24. Senses supposedly helps eith Psi, but i've been reading lately, that's only for learning, and it doesn't really do anything for the magic itself.
I like elves better, though, because i can put 10 points in In right away, allowing Powercast to start in just 10 levels, counting the Riddle Fountain; then Sp is done at L15 and Pi at L25. I usually use the other 10 from the start for Vi, 'cuz 35 is just too low.
I've also used Hobbits for Bishops, they get Vi and Sp, & more St than Elves.
My favorite use for Fellpur is a Bard. Because of the Se and In not really increasing musical effectiveness, Sp & Dx are done at L10 & 13, and St at 25, (i usually make them Fighters after L11)

I would NOT ignore piety. I've found post-75 skill improvement TORTUOUSLY slow when controlling attributes are not reasonably high (80+ seems ideal). Piety also provides more skill points, and the Iron Will skill is very nice.

IMO, snake speed is tremendously overrated. It is definitely NOT a reason to max speed. All it does is give you a tiny boost to initiative (at 100 snake speed, your iniative goes up by 10), but putting points in senses gives you a much better boost to initiative, AND it gives you a number of other bonuses to boot.

Faerie bishops get snakespeed faster, and powercast too, unless you want to invest points in vitality because of the low hp and carrying capacity.

Yes, senses also boost initiative. I think 100 speed gives 20 initiative, 100 senses gives 20 initiative and 100 snakespeed gives 10 initiative. If you have above 41 initiative or something like that, you will be able to cast first in almost every fight. In my last party, I pumped 3 points into speed on my elf alchemist at every levelup, and when he got snakespeed at level 14, I pumped that every levelup. By the end of the game, he had 23 snakespeed (+20 from snakespeed boots). And after speed, I put points into senses. So in the end he had 47 initiative with 1 ankh of speed (+10 speed), 1 pair of snakespeed boots (+10 speed, +20 snakespeed) and one cloak of perception (+20 senses). This means he had 120 speed, 93 senses and 43 snakespeed when he was level 20 (i.e 46.9 initiative = 47 initiative). You decide whether you think snakespeed is good. I only got 2 extra initiative from snakespeed which isn't that good. Still, I want to reach 100 speed anyway. Normally spell casters doesn't have much use of senses, unless you want high mythology skill or have psionic spell book.

Since my alchemist didn't put points in piety, but stayed at 55 piety and 100 intelligence, he had his magic skills around 70-80. My bishops maxed intelligence and piety, so they had their magic skills around 80-97. (Magic skills = fire, earth, water... ) Even though the alchemist cast alot of potions/powders/bullets and didn't use magic as much as the bishops, his magic skills still took longer to improve. So controlling attributes are important if you want really high skills.

[ 06-17-2002, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: el_kalkylus ]

I have a theory about controlling attributes.

Let's say we have the controlling attributes A and B to the skill C. Then I believe that when C is more than (A+B)/2, the skill will raise incredibly slow. But if you have put x amount of points into C at levelup, then C will raise incredibly slow only when C is more than x+(A+B)/2. Generally, this seem correct so far when I play.

Look at the lizardman fighter for example. He has 30 intelligence and 30 senses which are controlling attributes for the skill close combat. Because I put 3 points into close combat every levelup, he will add about 45 points to 30. So when he reach 45+30=75, his skill will raise very slowly. Luckily, he has 25% bonus, so his skill will probably end around 95 in close combat.

Edit: I said 45 points because I thought that the lizardman fighter would reach 75 close combat at level 15, and 15*3=45. When I looked at my last game, my lizardman fighter had 97 close combat at level 21.

[ 06-17-2002, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: el_kalkylus ]

I was thinking about bards. The controlling attributes for music skill are dexterity and intelligence. One game, I had my bard with 60 intelligence and 60 dexterity + 20 intelligence with helmet. This means that (according to my theory above), the music skill shouldn't raise much above (60+80)/2 + x, where x is the amount of points you have invested in music skill at levelup. So let's say I have invested 20 points in music, that means the bard will have around 90 music skill in the end.

This proved right for my bard in one game. She ended with 90 music at level 19. In another game, I classchanged my bard at level 15 to a fighter, so her music skill ended up at 84, which seems about right. In another game, my bard had 80 int and 85 dex. At level 21 she had 96 music, which also seem right.

I wonder though, have anyone ever maxed a skill? I have never done it. I think it's only possible to do that when controlling attributes are close to 100.

I have maxed the following skills, shown with corresponding "controlling" attribute points at the time of maxing for one example:
Locks & Traps, Dex 67, Int 55.
Stealth, Dex 65, Int 51.
Sword, Str 82, Dex 100.
Wand and Staff, Str 47, Dx 100.
Martial Arts, Dex 100, Spd 100.
Reflextion, Dex 100.
Powercast, Int 100.
Bow, Dex 100 Str 89.
(edit)
Alchemy, Dex 79, Int 86.
Wizardry, Int 72
Divinity, Piety 55
Psionics, Sen 60, Int 75.
Earth, Int 72.
Mental, Int 72.
I've also maxed Mythology, don't remember what the Att points were.

[ 06-18-2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: otter ]

With my last party, my bishop maxed several spellcasting skills. Int and Pie at 100.
My gadgeteer maxed engeneering, and my bard maxed music. Both didn't have 100 intelligence. But i didn't switch classes, so they had lots of time.
My ranger also maxed his shooting and range combat.

At the moment, i play a fighter-bishop duo. I made one level of rogue, and maxed stealth. Around level 6, so no stats were maxed.
I also trained the bishop in locks&traps to 90. Improved fast once i was at 20+, but got slow above ~60.

My bishop now has 90+ in any spellcasting skill except psionic. He has 100 int and pie, and alchemy raises fast with potion merging. But i had to use psionic spells exclusively for a long time to get it from 75 (100 int, 50 senses) up to 81 (to learn these level 7 spells).

So, it is possible to max skills with low controlling stats. But it takes a long time.

Thanks for the details. This is interesting. Hmm. my solo faerie ninja DID max critical strike (125 with bonus), but no other skill, some were at 99.

It seems like my theory is only good for my own games. Ah well, at least it's good for someone (me).

I think it all depends on how you play, people who take the time to train their skills in the various ways that are out there are alot more likely to max them to 100; if you just play through without stopping to train at all it would be less likely to happen.

> IMO, snake speed is tremendously overrated. It is definitely NOT a reason to max speed. All it does is give you a tiny boost to initiative (at 100 snake speed, your iniative goes up by 10), but putting points in senses gives you a much better boost to initiative, AND it gives you a number of other bonuses to boot.

Well imagine the choice for a pure caster who you want to be able to cast before any enemy attacks to get up defensive magic (say soul or element shield, something like that). You're going to want to max INT for sure, so then you have to decide which other stat it will be to max early, and let's say the choices are SEN vs SPD. If you max SEN, you get the .2 per point bonus to initiative, and you get bonuses to hit with ranged and melee weapons, and you open up eagle eye. Only the initiative part is of any use to a pure caster - I mean for me it's going to be a bishop who will almost never use a ranged or melee weapon. Now if I max speed, I get the same .2 per point bonus to initiative; I also get .04 per point in AC which is very useful for a caster limited in what armor they can use (also why I don't want a faerie bishop b/c they can use so little armor); plus it opens up snake speed which can then give me more initiative bonus points, over and above what I'd have gotten from senses alone.

The only weak point I see in choosing speed is that it's the one stat that can be radically raised for the whole party with a spell, haste. I think haste adds 75 (?) points of speed to every character and can max them to 125. So if you had 100 senses and put up haste, you'd have a higher inititive bonus than with 100 speed/100 snake speed, or even 125 speed/(via haste)100 snake speed. Haste makes me ignore the speed stat pretty much altogether when I spend points because this one spell takes care of it if you cast it in every fight.

So this brings up one more question: when in a round is initiative determined? Is it dynamic? Let's say I develop one caster who gets 100 speed, 100 snake speed, and he can cast from the Psionic realm and knows haste. A fight breaks out, his initiative is best, he goes first, and he casts haste. No one else has acted yet. After that spell, does the order the characters/monsters go in get recalculated based on the huge leap in speed everyone just got? For example say I have another caster who took the 100 senses but has a 50 speed. Well now he has 100 senses and 125 speed - does he act initiative-wise with those stats in round 1, or does the speed bonus he got from haste not kick in till round 2? If it works in round 1 then if he's the one I want to cast defensive magic he should go next because his inititive score would be extremely high; and the implication would be that you really only need to develop one character with snakespeed who would cast haste on the party. If it doesn't kick in until the next round (when in certain fights it's too late) then I think he's better off having maxed speed and snakespeed. And some other, slower character (for me might be my monk who I'll have go for str/dex first) would cast haste, wouldn't matter when in the round as much because it wouldn't help until round 2.

But I am not sure how inititive gets done, how the order of actions goes when haste is cast - does anyone know??

check out Dorkus' Stats threads re Int.
All spells in W8 take effect upon casting. (yes, that means it's still Round 1)
Speed also contributes to the success of Pickpocket, Martial Arts, Lightning Strike, and Crit, only for PP you can't cast Haste.

Well I think that settles it then for me, just one caster will go for speed and snakespeed, and he'll be designated to cast haste first thing in each fight; I am pretty sure (will have to check this out with another party) that haste cast at level 7 adds 75 points, so I see no reason to raise anyone else's speed over a 50 as that will be where it will max to 125 with haste on.

That works, except in water. I played two games like this, and depended on my bard's haste spell.

Yah, i was just thinking about the Bard for this myself. With a Bard, the Speed would also help with the results of PP, so everything that you need Speed for would be covered.
So, how much Speed do you get from a Bard?

Nice thing about the Bard is if you raise the speed naturally to 100, there are those bard-only items to go on top of it which could max it to 125, plus then add snakespeed on top of that - he'd be one quick character. This time around though I am going for a Priest over a Bard, we'll see how it works out, I want one character devoted to just being the designated buffer/healer and to occasionally take a whack at monsters with a staff. I think I am going to have:

Flank - Human Monk w/staff
Front - Hobbit Rogue w/dual daggers; RFS w/MA
Flank - Hobbit Ninja->Ranger w/spear
Middle - Rawulf Priest w/staff; Vi w/polearm
Rear - Felpurr Bishop + Elf Bishop

So the Felpurr bishop will be the party's speed guy, he'll go for the Psionic and Alchemist books so he will have Haste. I'll have my "line of stealth" formation and won't bother building speed on anyone except the Felpurr. Think it should be very effective, will see what happens, have a 3-day weekend coming up so they may come into being by thurs night [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well, for the first time i have 4 prties going at once, and i suspect the one i just started is going to end up overtaking at least 2 of the others:
Fairy Ninja (can't live without one!)
Felpurr Bard, 1 Nin level, to Fighter at 12
Mook Fighter (start as Rogue)
The extra level is for Stealth.
The Ninja will Alchemize for ton'o'bux and Portal.
As a Bard, the Purr gets 9 points more for Speed to start than as a Bishop, and gets to play the Rousing Drum at the same level as a caster gets Haste. And it works underwater! The Bard needs very few XP to get there compared to the Bishop, and same is true of the Fighter class, which does much more damage to enemies. You just have to crank Vit for the Purr.
Starting the Mook as Rogue gets me the Speed and Dex they don't otherwise have, and there's my stealth level! I forsee serious destruction when i get me one'o'them there Giants' Swords!
(edit)
Well, i just got back from starting, and i changed my mind about the party already, actually started with:
Mook Ranger (yah, living without a FN)
Mook Gadgeteer (once i can make 3X-xbows and 'cast' Eye4Eye, i'm gonna switch to Fighter)
And, of course, the Felpurr Bard-to-Fighter.
Got everything i need, the hardest part will probably be getting Artifacts high enough to ID the stuff i'll be mixing, since nobody will be able to cast ID...
BUT i'll be ready for 2 Giants' Swords!

[ 06-20-2002, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: otter ]

I don't think any fire based spells work underwater, the rousing drums fail too, am about 95% sure.

I'm accepting everyone's silence as seconding Gimli on the drums' not working subaqueously. I wouldn't have thought that Instruments would have Magic Schools and Realms...
Anyway, here's another thing i'm finding worth mentioning:
A Fighter who has been a Bard can play whatever instruments are within the Bard level abilities, EVEN if they're found after the class switch. Casters have to be casters in order to learn new spells!

Agreed on the class-switched bards being able to play new instruments, and the same for class-switched casters not being able to learn new spells in an old realm.

Well I finally did it, I started the new party yesterday, running it on Expert with the patch so no PPing really. Haven't reloaded once but not playing on IM (don't want a phone call to end up in disaster, lol). I have a couple of things left in the Monastery and then will hit the road which to me is always the toughest time in the game. Everyone is level 5 and staying that way until they reach Arnika.

I ended up taking a Human Monk, Dwarf Fighter (decided on one guy to be a tank and draw hits from the stealthy front-liners), Mook Ninja (who will eventually be a Ranger and use the GS), Rawulf Priest, Elf Bishop and Felpurr Bishop. Will add Myles and Vi soon and then make an RFS run and dump Myles ASAP.

So far they have done amazingly well, no deaths, the only near-death experience was with Gregor (he singled out the Felpurr Bishop twice with his spittle) but I got past him after a long fight with everyone still breathing.

Am going to start another topic because I also went out and saw NWN and got a copy, am still too into this game to try it but I want to see how people feel - have heard mostly good things so far.