I just gotta give this class an own topic, because I think it's so great. I know most of you think that it's just another pure caster, but it isn't like that. The way I have developed the alchemist, I think it's one of the greatest classes.

As most of you know, a character with alchemist skill can mix potion and sell them expensive, so the alchemist makes money. The 25% bonus in alchemy makes the alchemist get high alchemy skill at very low levels, so you can make money and buy all spell books very early in the game without having to stand around casting knock knock with a bishop, ranger or ninja. Personally, I hate standing around doing any of those "cheats", like casting knock knock, casting cure lesser cnd in the monastery etc, so I don't do it, I pick an alchemist instead.

The alchemist starts with pretty high throwing&sling skill, so it makes a perfect character for throwing powders and potions (when it's not making them). Powders and potions can make life much easier on Dominus. This way the alchemist can be part of ranged combat too (with sling) and be good at it.

What about the spells? In my opinion, the alchemist has the greatest spells. It's a combination of priest spells and mage spells which is useful in any situation you may encounter. I can count alot of favourite spells in all 4 spell books, and most of them are in the alchemy spell book. Think about the cloud spells for example, or the defensive 'body of stone' spell. There are many other spells also worth mentioning.

Now, will there be any spells left for the alchemist to choose from in the end? Well, the alchemist have 35 spells to choose from, and you will probably get 10-15 spells from spell books, so you have 19-24 spell picks throughout the game with an alchemist (you start with 2 spell picks). Usually, I want some of the good spells early in the game (elemental shield, noxious fumes etc) before I can even get them from books, so I have around 22 spell picks. That means I have 22 levels to finnish the game before I run out of spell picks, which is about the time I finnish the game anyway.

I want my alchemist fast, so I concentrate most stat points on intelligence and speed. It's important to get snakespeed early in the game so that it will be higher by the end. Being able to cast elemental shield first is a top priority, and having an alchemist able to cure the other members first in combat is also important. Later, I will give points in dexterity or senses and piety to improve the initiative and increase spell points.

It doesn't hurt that the alchemist has decent hp either. [img]smile.gif[/img]

So what do I end up with? a class that can cast offensive and defensive magic fast, and get good at it fast with the 25% bonus. If magic doesn't bite, just use a wrist rocket and KO some monsters! Money will never be a problem, neither will diseases, and the cloud spells (and other spells) will give monsters a really hard time.

Well, one thing to think about regarding speedy alchemists. If he's the one you use to cast Purify Air, it's much more helpful to have him go at the end of the round.

I don't think most people consider pure casters useless, but since this version of Wizardry doesn't let you do the millions of class changes like you could do in 6 and 7, you need to concentrate on characters that are versatile. Bishops will help out with the Dispel undead and remove curse thing. Or, can your Alchemist serve as the party's only spellcaster? If so, great. Tell us more about how you set them up... but you'll have to admit that bishops fill that role without any tweaking.

I don't use purify air very often, and anytime is as good as any to use it for me.

I finnish the game pretty early, so having an alchemist can make my party more powerful in the alchemy-aspect, you know? I still like the bishop, and if you want to compare, the bishop is stronger than most classes. They have made the bishop too powerful in this game, but even after have said this, I could choose an alchemist in a party without regrets. You could have another bishop in the party too.

But my point (mostly) was that the alchemist uses powder and sling when it doesn't cast spells. A bishop have too many skills to concentrate on, so it would not be wise to choose a bishop for this kind of task. Also, the alchemist can cast alchemy spells at higher power, always, because it will always be higher level than a bishop, and has the 25% bonus.

If you just want the 25% ability, you could change bishop to alchemist later in the game. That works out fine, you will only be behind 1 or 2 levels in the end than an actual alchemist and have a lot more spells and spell points. But then you haven't taken advantage of the wonderful beginning of the game when the alchemist uses the powders and buys spell books early in the game. Also, when magic doesn't bite, the alchemist will always have the wristrocket and help out with ranged combat. It's not much help, but still, it's a help.

Hmm, I like the alcemist as well but I find any kind of powder or potion too weak after a while. I just throw them for the fun of using it up but I prefer to use my Bishops own magic skill. Besides, a lone alcemist can't offer you all the buffering spells where as a Bishop can.

Yeah, me too. When the powders aren't so effective any more compared to spells, the alchemist can use sling and spells.

I think a class with no magic is better suited to be the designated powder/bomb party member, I have my Rogue do it. I wouldn't use a magic user for this as they can just cast spells, and it it's a Bishop they can cast any spell the powders/bombs would produce.

[ 05-07-2002, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: el_kalkylus ]

Remember, you can't cast endless of spells. Mana will run out. Besides, in the beginning, the bishop won't be able to cast pandemoneum, concussion etc anyway, they just cast some low level spells at low spell-power to improve skill.

The rouge is well suited for casting potions too. I didn't say that this kind of alchemist is perfect for any party. You feel like everyone has an assignment without need for this kind of alchemist, then so be it. No alchemist for that party.

I am just describing how glad I am of the power of the alchemist, and why it's so good. I have finnished this game about 5 times already, so I have tried almost everything, and I know that this is a great class if you finish the game as early as I use to do, and if you don't use "cheat methods".

I made a comparison by running 2 groups through on parallel saves, with 2 tanks and 4 spellcasters. One group had the 4 different pure spellcasters, and the other had 4 Bishops. What convinced me to run only Bishops as spellcasters is that they get noticably more than twice the mana capacity per level because they learn all the spells. By L 24 they can have all spells from all books.
The idea that it's cheating to practise casting spells is absurd. In fact, modern-day stage magicians practise much more than they perform, and lockpickers on either side of the law sit around playing with locks for practise all the time.

I call it "cheat method". It's allowed in the game, but I don't like to sit around and do those kind of things. I want to go on with the game as fast as possible. These methods make the characters ridiculously powerful. I heard about people changing classes to rouge to improve stealth. They choose an easy monster to train stealth, and they sit around until the stealth is around 80-100, then they change back to bishop or whatever class. Then they probably go to a place in the monastery and cast some cure lesser cnd until water magic is around 100, then go to Arnika and cast some knock knocks until earth magic is 100 and alchemy/wizardry is 100. Then they buy some spell books like magic screen, enchanted blade, etc, and sit around casting these spells until every magic skills are around 100. At level 10 they could have a bishop with 100 skill in almost everything and with 10 extra AC because of stealth. What can stop that party after that? There will be no challenge anymore.

Why do I choose an alchemist over a bishop? Well, probably I already have a bishop in my party and I want to have some class that develops faster and someone to throw powders/potions, and can make potions early in the game so you can afford all the goodies early in the game. If I feel that the alchemist doesn't make much use in that kind of party, I could just change to a ranger and wait for infinity helmet, or perhaps just change to bishop to get more spells.

Yah, but it's OK to stand around mixing potions until you have a ton o'bux and 100 Alchemy?
Heh.
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I also like to run the sequence of the game backwards, going straight from the Monastery to buying spellbooks at Gigas to the Mountain Wilderness, where i pick up the Dread Spear, Staff o'Doom & Winter Wand, and Diamond Eyes on my way to the Retro. That's my challenge--set myself up to walk through most of the game by barely surviving the acquisition of the tools for it. The point shouldn't be, "you're doing it wrong," but rather, "look how many ways there are to do it!"

Yeah, mixing potions is necessary if you want to buy books early. At least with pure alchemist you don't have to train it before you have 50 alchemy, it get there around level 5 or something.

Yeah, me too. I also like to go to some harder areas in the beginning, and my party is still effective with the alchemist. It's a great class. To spice things up, I also play expert and ironman mode, even though it's not much difference between ironman and normal game, it's still a little different.

I don't quite understand, do you people really think it's so bad with alchemist over bishop? I said all those reasons above and how I play the game, you should say "wow, yeah it's really a great class, I haven't thought about it that way", not being negative and say "well, the bishop can do anything and is much more powerful".

It's about usefulness and effectiviness. With a bishop, I can end the game at level 18, but with an alchemist I can end it by level 20, so the high level spells will be more useful with an alchemist at that time. As I said before, I play the game fast, so an alchemist fits perfectly in my party.

[ 05-09-2002, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: el_kalkylus ]

I just think all the pure casting classes are very underpowered compared to the bishop. And I don't see much of a problem with mana (of course for an Alchemist it will be alot less than a Bishop as they can't learn nearly as many spells per realm) as there are plenty of mana stones, potions, and the fountain in Trynton you can place a set portal next to (or is that a "cheat" too?). My Bishop just fires away from all the different realms and maybe now and then chugs a mana potion in between battles, mana has never been a problem. He doesn't use throwing weapons at all now, just has the staff of Doom for quick fights where spells would be overkill.

Also any class can learn thrown/sling and throw the powders/bombs, so I don't see what this has to do with the "power" of the Alchemist. Why you would have a caster use items for spells when he can cast them confuses me, seems the items would augment a magic-less character like a rogue or fighter and just be redundant with a spell caster. Also rogues and fighters can dual wield and dual throwing helps them develop that skill faster. But everyone plays differently so if you enjoy the pure classes more power to you, most other people here don't seem to see it that way though.

I love pure casters, and alchemist is my favourite too. And unlike bishop, he can use all the stix stuff (and they're cute sometimes).

Gimli, this is sad. Obviously you haven't understood my points, so I won't waste my time trying to convince you.

I have a alcemist related question. I don't understand what potion mixing is about. Combining two potions to get a new one right? But all I've ever got was a pickmeup potion, which I admit, is rather useful, but can other potions be made? If so, what's the formula?

I'm sorry if you find constructive criticism "sad" Kalk, what can I say, I don't like pure casters. I'm saddened that you're saddened, lol ;)

Milotin, i have no idea how to set up a link, this is the first forum i've ever had anything to do with, but i knowif you use the search under Alchemy or Potions, one of those threads has a link to a site with lists of things like mixing for skill and profit.

I have a great link here: http://www.geocities.com/jandrall/

Gimli, it's just that it annoyed me that you kept talking about things that I already explained. That showed how little you have understood about what I wrote, or perhaps you haven't read it at all. I won't waste my time with you further...

Hey el_kalkylus, thanks alot for the link. I didn't even know about the 3x shot X-bow. (sad huh?) That link was everything I wanted and more! Guess this'll keep me occupied for quite some time :D

What ever happened to "play the game how you want to and have fun with it?" That was (rightfully) plastered all over this board when I first got here. That's one of the great things about Wiz 8, IMHO-there are so many ways to play. If you don't want to use the "cheat training", then don't. I don't, because I believe that it goes against the intent of learning by practice. But that's just the way that I do things. It doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right, or vice versa. And it didn't mean that my bishop wasn't powerful. Personally, I'm glad to see someone really exploring the pure casters and posting some strategies on them. No need to get all pissy about it.

I totally agree, think you should play the way you want, I think Kalk got a little bitchy when I commented on what I see are weaknesses in his build. Doesn't have to be the ultimate character, but there are some problems I see with his reasoning - but if he enjoys this type of character then that's all that matters. I am dissapointed though that he's making personal attacks, but oh well.

I think for the benefit of other people reading this thread though who want to have their characters/parties made to be more efficient and powerful there should be other view points brought up like mine.

I personally like to play for a long time with one party and train them as much as possible to be as good as they can be, to work and develop alot of skills per character. I'm in no rush to finish and have no need for characters who have only a few skills and max out faster.

I also think it's unfair to characterize any method available in the game to help your skills as "cheating", eg, casting knock-knock, or training with a monster that you heal to build stealth for example. I mean Kalk is basically telling you to "cheat" with Alchemists by mixing potions over and over again for unlimited $$, so "cheating" is in the eye of the beholder. Again though this is all personal preference - when I see ways to help my characters improve, I use them; to me only using an editor is cheating.

I know that I have mentioned this, but it's worth mentioning again. "My alchemist" is good and effective in a party when
1) You play the game fast, i.e. you end the game around level 17-21.
2) You don't make your characters super powerful early in the game with certain methods (I called them "cheat", and now I see people upset, sorry about that)
3) Noone else in the party is using the powders/potions etc.

Remember that I don't diss the bishop in this kind of party. I feel that a bishop has it's role as a magic specialist, and the alchemist should do what I described in the beginning. I like to have both of them in the party. With my experience how my bishops usually develop, I really feel positive about what this alchemist can do later in the game.

About "cheat" again: I, like many others, draw the line at mixing potions. After that, you can make super characters at very early levels with certain methods (I called these methods "cheats"). It was the first word I could think of, and it seemed like a natural choice of word at the moment.

Was it the "waste my time" part? [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img] I apologize, but you have to understand that I got a little annoyed when you said things like "...set a portal, or is that "cheat" for you too?", and the fact that you talked about the alchemist vs bishop outside the limits of where I described the alchemist. I am sure that a bishop wouldn't be as good as an alchemist if you want to develop it the way I want and follow the 3 points above. There are far too many skills to work on, and I know that, most of the times, more than 2 skills makes a non-expert character throughout the game (in fast games of course), and the bishop already has at least 2 skills to concentrate on (often 2½).

Have I been telling anyone differently? I don't think so. Everyone should play the game the way they want.

You are welcome. [img]smile.gif[/img] It's an old link that hasn't been updated in very long time, but it's still good. It has links to other sites too.

I feel I should add some information about my experience with pure casters and bishops.

In my last game, my two bishops and other members in the party, ended at level 17-19 in Ascensions peak, just 2 quests away from the final battle. At that time, my bishops had only concentrated on 2½ skills each, and they tried to cast magic from every magic element in every fight. Their specialist realms ended up with 80-85 points, and they didn't have any level 7 spell, because they weren't level 18 yet. An alchemist at this time, would probably be around level 18-19 and have level 7 spells, and be able to cast the spells much more effectively than my two bishops. This means that the alchemist would be good in the end of the game, and if you give the alchemist throwing skills, it can be good in the beginning too, casting high level powders like concussion, pandemonium, skeleton powder etc. It gives the alchemist a little more variety of spells.

When I played a magic party with mage, psionic, alchemist, priest, bard and gadgeteer, I developed the alchemist in a similar way, but I didn't give it snakespeed, which I believe will have it's uses later in the game when you face faster opponents. Getting element shield up fast is important for me. Usually, hybrids like samurai, ranger or ninja can't cast element shield very effectively in the end of the game (fast games once again), so they can't really replace a bishop or an alchemist or a mage in this aspect.

Things are going pretty well with my alchemist so far. It just hit level 11, and has 91 alchemy skill and around 35 in every other magic skill. It has 20 in ranged combat and about 65 in throwing&sling skill.

Right now the stats are like this:
str 35
int 100 (12 powercast)
pie 50
vit 50 (or 45, don't remember)
dex 60
speed 85 (something like this)
senses ? (can't remember, but it was over 50 at least)

I developed my bishops so that they would max int and piety as soon as possible. They still haven't maxed int or piety, but they are still level 10 (takes a long time to level up...). I have one bishop with 74 divinity, 40 alchemy, 20 wizardry, and another bishop with 70 wizardry, 50 psionic, 33 divinity. Their magic skills are around 30-60. Things are going according to plan.

I disagree. The Bishop has just 3 schools more. Don't even spend points in sling or armor before you hit the max in each realm and school. I use my bishop like an Alchemist right at the begining of the game with of course a psionic and a priest. Only the wizardry comes a little slower. The 25% will only help you a little in the begining to be able to cast a spell at higher power. This mini 25% never helped me to learn extra spells. A bishop well used in combat and adventuring (without the massive boring spell-casting-boosting) will be always ready to learn all the spells in each realm for each school when he hits the correct level.

I finally kicked out all the other pure casters for a bishop because he could do what all 4 other classes can (you have 4 classes in one for the same price). As for focusing on a weapon, bof, only the weapon bonus is important.

Only small drawback, bishops level slow. But at the same level a bishop out run any pure caster by light years.

Ice, I have already explained...Read more if you are not satisfied with the first explanations.