I just discovered my Samurai has the sword Bloodlust and it is now a cursed item. Is there anyone who can help him remove this? Or uncurse it? I am not too far into the game and visited the temple at Arnika but cannot figure out how to ask Lord Braffit to uncurse something.

"Remove Curse" is a fourth level mage or priest spell. Bishops also have the ability to remove curses as one of their special class abilities (it's the button marked with a cross). Other than that, though, you'd have to find or buy a scroll of remove curse... As far as I know, no NPC can remove curses for you.

By the way, don't assume that simply because something is cursed it's a bad item... Many of the best weapons in the game (including Bloodlust) are cursed.

Just a point, the "remove curse" just means you can then remove the cursed item, it does not actually take the cursing away from the item (there is no way to do that, since curses are usually added during the manufacturing process by Mean Buggers Inc [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Bloodlust sword is very good sword used by SAMURAI, and another good sword for SAMURAI is rarely found in WIZARDRY8. So, You should use Bloodlust sword, and do not worry that sword is cursed. Many cursed items in WIZ8, Bloodlust sword is only few useful items.

Ok, points well taken. Thanks for the help and advice friends.

I had put my bloodlust sword away (along with the poisoned daggers) because they prevented my character from switching between ranged and near weapons.

Based on what I have read, I just gave my Samurai bloodlust and a poisoned dagger --- and will let him focus on magic for ranged weapons. He has gotten fairly good with an energy blast. I hope that next level he'll be able to get a fireball spell.

Well this is sort of OT but I need to make a comment about Bloodlust. I picked it up and gave it to my Lord to dual with a Poisoned Dagger at the time and discovered it blew chunks for my game. :(

I can understand the usefulness of having the Berserk effect and gives an extra swing, but I miss a boatload of times. I'm not talking half or two-thirds, but really I miss about 75 to 80% of the time and that just doesn't cut it. Maybe it's just my game. I had my Bishop decurse him, and had him switched to a Diamond Epee instead and even though he's swinging half as often, he hits more often. Shrugs.

I agree Annheiser. That was my primary concern. It wasn't until I kept seeing how often he was missing that I thought I would change his weapon. Then I discovered why his arrow supply was not depleting.

Bloodlust has it's merits, but I still prefer to have him hit more often and be able to shoot from a distance. With a Samarai you have so many choices of what to develop with skill points that the magic had been overlooked. My bad in that regard. shrug

I agree on the issues with Bloodlust. I keep wanting to make that darn blade work, but I get so frustrated missing all the time that I just can't do it. I had one battle where my samurai attacked 5x twice, and missed all 10 times. I ask you, what's the benefit of that? I'd rather use a short sword and hit 6 times than use Bloodlust and never hit at all. Granted, my samurai was only 8th or 9th level at the time, but with a sword skill already over 50, I find it highly annoying that she missed 90% of the time. If my math is correct, you need to hit at least every other time to make double damage worthwhile, no?

My Samurai is Level 12 and he's had Bloodlust since about level 6 (ish). One thing I can say is that he almost NEVER misses. I think one of the reasons for this is that he doesn't use a secondary weapon. Remember, if you're using any secondary weapon, you get severely punished in the Sword Skill category. If your sword skill is up to 50, even if you had 100 in dual wield, it'd be treated like it were only 25, worse than that for lower dual wield skill. I personally don't have any of my characters dual wielding, my Fighter is using Demonsbane with an Aqua Shield. It's not as much damage as a Flamberge, but it's faster initiative and I can use the shield.

Well I know dual wield will affect adversely to your weapon skills, but still doesn't explain how I hit more often with another weapon compared to Bloodlust. ;) I think it's better off giving it to someone (if you need to) not in the frontline and not meleeing as often, so in the off-chance you do swing, you might be able to rake in the bonus hit... if you hit. My .02 once more.

Dude if u want your sam to hit with bloodlust 90% of the time then u must develop his dex attribute
my sam misses about 15% of the time but he used to miss a lot more but i pump up dex every level
he is now at around 86
and sword is at maxx
also dont dual wield like the other person said
i used to have him equip the enchanted wazakashi
now that i gave him a shield instead he does a lot better
thats withought magic or a bow
all Bloodlust baby

he still has a lot more kills than my fighter who has powerstrike and a demonsbane and a demonsting bow

but u gots to be a man to use bloodlust
u cant be a camping whore
no sniping with ur bow
just rush in and fight toe to toe

(Ok this is from a CRPG lover who just got into counter-strike a few months ago and cant believe he not only loves the game, but is kick ass good at it)

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Bad Mr. Frosty ]</p>

??? and ????

D3\/\/d. Did you even read the thread? I'm not telling him to dual Bloodlust. The latter part of the discussion was about my personal experience with my Lord dualling the blade and another weapon.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Annheiser ]</p>

I’m pretty sure that there’s a penalty to hit for berserking, as well as for dual-wielding. Without seeing what kind of character you’ve got, I can’t really comment. But if he’s berserking with Bloodlust while dual-wielding (and if he has a low dexterity or sword skill), then yeah… He won’t be able to hit anything.

Really, Bloodlust works best with a particular type of character. You won’t see great results giving the sword to a fighter or lord, for example. On the other hand, a well-trained rogue or samurai is a force of nature with Bloodlust equipped. Why? Because the extra attacks mean extra chances to critical or backstab.

Let me put it this way…

My very first party contained a lizardman fighter and a felpurr samurai. The lizardman always got the best weapons, best armor, etc (his weapon progression was Demonsbane – Fang – Ivory Blade, if you’re curious)… He was also better trained. He maxed out strength and dexterity, and he had a very high vitality. The felpurr, on the other hand, got whatever armor was left over, and fought using a enchanted wakizashi and Bloodlust for the entire game (not counting the monastery, of course). She was also so badly trained she never managed to max out any stats or skills (hey, I did say this was my first party… I didn’t know what I was doing.)

By the end of the game the felpurr samurai (still using Bloodlust, even at the end) had about 40% more kills than the lizardman.

Right now, I’m running a party with a rawulf lord (sword/mace dual-wield) and a felpurr rogue (sword/dagger dual-wield). The rawulf is using Demonsbane and Diamond Eyes (which is the best off-hand weapon in the game, by the way) and the felpurr is using Bloodlust and a Thieves Dagger. Both are at about level 14 at the moment. The rogue has 350 kills. The next highest kill total in the entire party is about 150 (lord and bishop tied). I’m literally seeing triple damage with virtually every swing. Sometimes (against a KOed creature, for example), the damage is QUINTUPLED. The felpurr rogue, alone, is doing nearly 200 damage every single round, easily. At level 14.

I’m sorry, but you’ll never manage to convince me that the Bloodlust is a bad weapon. There are some characters who shouldn’t be using it, sure, but it’s easily one of the best weapons in the game in the right hands.

~~merulus~~

gotta agree with you on that one. i developed my bard's rogue skills so that she can toss off a couple of her disabling songs to start, and once the baddies close in, she has her Bloodlust and poison dagger at the ready.

she does some great attacks. [img]smile.gif[/img] and her skills with the blade are improving so fast, it makes me proud, it does. ::wipes her eyes::

the group is only about level 10 or so now, but she currently ranks 3rd in the group for kills and that amount keeps increasing all the time.

i did have my samurai use it at first, but much prefer him to use his dual ability and a bow for longrange. giving Bloodlust to my bard was the best thing i ever did for each of them. :D


V***V

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>i developed my bard's rogue skills so that she can toss off a couple of her disabling songs to start, and once the baddies close in, she has her Bloodlust...<hr></blockquote>

…Wow, now I feel stupid. Here I am, telling everyone what great fighters bards make and what a great weapon Bloodlust is, and it never even occurred to me to try giving Bloodlust to a bard.

Hmm… That’s actually an excellent idea. My bard never uses her bow anyway. Maybe once I get my hands of Fang, she’ll be able to inherit Bloodlust.

…or I could try it with my (inevitable) next party. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Wait a second, heh, please explain to me how Bloodlust on a Bard is any different than say a Lord or Fighter? I understand the point about giving it to Samurais (I don't have one in my current roster but I agree they are the better class to give to) because with every swing, you have the chance to Critical Strike with that class, but Bards can not Critical. So how are they better off?

I'm confused. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I guess it comes down to which way you want to look at it. You say you develop your dexterity and scrap the secondary weapon to use Bloodlust. Since Bloodlust gives you an extra attack, you have more chances to crit... But you lose the one attack you're gaining by dropping the secondary weapon. And oh, I develop speed and senses first for my samurai, because those are the controlling attributes for critical hits. So by dropping Bloodlust and keeping my secondary weapon, I have the same amount of attacks. By using something other than Bloodlust, I can actually hit. And by training speed and senses rather than dex and whatever, I theoretically have a higher chance to critical hit. So why should I use it again? :>

And as to the bard using Bloodlust and having that be the reason why s/he has lots of kills, I can only say that there are far more and better ways to make your bard high on the kill list. My bard is currently second in kills (after my ranger!), but I attribute this more to my judicious use of the Piercing Pipes than anything else. In the swamps my bard was popping 5 and 6 frogs at a time. That'll rack up the kills pretty quickly!

Anyway, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so don't rag on me too bad. I imagine you can build a character to effectively use Bloodlust, but I'd personally rather not suffer the annoyance. To each his/her own though [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Bards can not Critical. So how are they better off?<hr></blockquote>

They aren’t. I didn’t say they would be. If I had to choose between giving Bloodlust to my rogue/samurai/whatever, or giving it my bard… The bard would have to do without. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The reason I said giving Bloodlust to a bard was a good idea is because bards (in my groups, anyway) rarely use ranged weapons. They rely on their instruments at range, and so have no need for a bow/sling/whatever (that’s not to say a bard can’t become a very effective shooter if you want her to be, though).

Perhaps I should clarify what I think Bloodlust’s selling points are…

Bloodlust grants its wielder +5 to sword skill, +1 extra swing per attack, +6 initiative, and does 5 – 13 points of berserk (double) damage. Downside? Cursed, and berserking has a penalty to hit.

Demonsbane (the only other “special” sword you can get this early in the game) grants its wielder +1 to hit and initiative, and does 5 – 16 points of ordinary swing and thrust damage (double against demons). The downside is that it can’t be used by very many classes.

In my opinion, Bloodlust outclasses Demonsbane in every way. More damage, better bonuses, wider variety of wielders… Every way. You’d have to miss an awful lot to make up for both the double damage and the extra attacks (not to mention the skill bonus). The only reason not to use Bloodlust is if, like vesselle, using a bow is important to you.

I think you came away with the impression that I meant Bloodlust was only a good weapon in the hands of a rogue or samurai. That’s not what I meant. Maybe I should say:

In the hands of a ranger or gadgeteer, Bloodlust is a very poor weapon.

In the hands of a fighter, Bloodlust is an adequate weapon, though not very impressive.

In the hands of a lord or bard, Bloodlust is a good weapon – especially considering how early you get it in the game.

In the hands of a samurai or rogue - people who can really use all of Bloodlust’s attributes to their fullest, however… Bloodlust becomes one of the best weapons in the game.

Grungepopp:
Was that directed at me, or Bad Mr. Frosty? I always dual-wield Bloodlust. I will say, though, that I think you’ve failed to take three things into account. One, by dropping the secondary weapon you can use a shield, which would significantly improve your samurai’s armor class. Two, dual-wielding has a penalty for most of the game, so your hit percentages with a single Bloodlust would probably be about the same as dual-wielding. Three, Bloodlust does not do ordinary slash and thrust damage, it does doubled berserk damage.

As for Piercing Pipes: I never use them after Arnika. I vastly prefer things like insanity, hex, armormelt, etc… It's really a matter of personal taste.

I've honestly never dropped the second weapon to see the impact dual wielding has on Bloodlust's effectiveness. So I won't even bother to make a judgement there. Moral issues of having a samurai use a shield aside, I can see your point if dual wielding is that badly penalized. All of which just illustrates the point that you can build a character to taste, so if you really want to use Bloodlust, I'm sure you can make a character to do so. But my mind was made up after missing two sequencial 5x attacks (10 total misses) in one battle, not to mention most of my other 2x attacks with Bloodlust. I'm apparently not developing my samurai correctly to use BL, and I accept that fact. I'd like to keep what little of my hair I have left!

As for the bard and piercing Pipes, believe me, I drop an insanity, haste, and/or a hex (magic screen, heal all, you get the picture) in there when given the opportunity. But after the critters are affected by various ailments, I like to kick in with some group direct damage. And when you're talking about 18-24 hp frogs, I just go with Pipes from round 1. Oh, and I like to have my bard shoot her doubleshot once or twice a battle so she can pump up her bow and ranged combat skills.

Peace

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>They aren’t. I didn’t say they would be. If I had to choose between giving Bloodlust to my rogue/samurai/whatever, or giving it my bard… The bard would have to do without.<hr></blockquote>

Ah, okay. Well regardless, it's based on what kind of party you have and what weapons you're training them with then. I only have two characters that have been wielding swords (excluding my ninja); my Lord and Fighter.

Maybe it's just my game that's been generating up some godawful to hit numbers for Bloodlust. I had a nightmarish experience trying to make it through using that weapon. :( You're right, all the bonuses to Bloodlust do make the Demonsbane seem inferior. However, as I said in an earlier post, I miss about anywhere from 75% and upwards with Bloodlust than Demonsbane and the extra damage isn't just worth it.

Wow. I didn’t realize you were having that many misses. I know Bloodlust misses a lot… Heck, my current rogue has high eighties in both dual wield and sword and still occasionally misses a full set of three strikes. But you sound like you’re having much worse performance than that.

What kind of sword/dual-wield numbers do you have? I have to admit I’ve never tried using Bloodlust with a Lord before (I usually have at least one light, fast fighter type – samurai/rogue/fighter – who ends up using Bloodlust).

hey anhesier bush!!!
i wasnt talking specifically about you
i was just posting a comment in general for all who need the help

anyway yes i read ur post and u have a lord... a lord should stick with a different type weapons.
dual wielding maces is ur best bet tons of status effects late in the game, like paralyze ans KO. Personally i dont like to start a game with a lord. they are not balanced in enough for me.
what is good to do is start as a priest either a dwarf or a rawulf and then changing to a lord mid game
u will have a weak lord as far as strength but its cool because ur lord becomes mostly for its status effect ability and his divine magic
u can slowly build him into a stronger quicker fighter type lord with magik ability

ohh yeah as far as teh bloodlust, only ur quick lithe charachters should use it, sam's, rogues, bards

even if u now have penalties for dual wielding u must stick with it
so u gain points and can eventually dual wield with no problems at endgame
u must remeber people that in a game like this the endgame is the key
even if u must suffer a bit now u must plan for the best party development for the endgame

Great discussion! As somebody who has gone on record as saying that Bloodlust is the perfect weapon for a samurai, since they have great offensive magic to use in ranged situations, I'd like to pipe in...

First, as somebody already mentioned, the key to hitting your mark is your dexterity. If you're missing that much with bloodlust, start pumping your dex. Once mine got into the 70s (along with the obvious increase in sword skill during that time), I was having no trouble hitting with Bloodlust >90% of the time. Other factors include strength, and your close combat skill (one of the reasons fighters can get away with berserking is their bonus to CC).

Secondly, I would like to refute a claim early on in the thread that indicated that even with a dual-wield skill of 100, your effective weapon skill will be cut in half. This just isn't true. To get a TRUE indication of how dual-wielding affects your character's abilities, click on the little sword icon just to the right of your character portrait in the inventory screen. This shows all of your offensive attributes. Now de-equip and re-equip your wakizashi (or whatever you have as a 2nd weapon), and see how those scores change. If your attack rating is decreasing by, say, 5 points when you equip a second weapon, then dual-wielding is having a dramatic negative effect on your battle effectiveness. To remedy this, you need to pump up you dual-wielding skill. By keeping my dual-wielding skill close to my sword skill (say, within 10 points or so), I have noticed that equipping a 2nd weapon will only reduce my attack rating on my primary weapon by 1 point, maybe 2 at most. This is a fair tradeoff to me to get the extra attacks and the extra chance at crits that a 2nd weapon offers.

Finally, I may be the only person to actually be happy to see a bunch of successive misses. This means I'm trying something hard, which means I have a good chance of increasing my skills. Forget levels, skills reign supreme in this game, and with the extra attacks that Bloodlust gives me (both through beserking and through the massive +6 to initiative), my sammie gets TONS of opportunities to practice his sword and CC skills...

JMO, of course...

I had posted about the Dual Weapons cutting your skill in half... I was just re-posting what I had read on Spydah's Wiz 8 DB which seems to be very accurate from the general concensus... here's the article:


Dual Weapon Info

By Zzled (Vault Network Wiz 8 Board)

Dual Weapons: .005(at '100' bonus is 100 x .005 =.5) of weapon skill Attack Rating bonus for primary weapon.

.0025 of weapon skill Attack Rating bonus for secondary weapon.

note: percentage-wise enables all the extra attacks, swings, and attack rating you'd receive from weapon skills.

note: 0 skill gives 1/2 weapon skill bonuses for primary 1/4 weapon skill bonuses for secondary.

note: strength damage bonus for second weapon starts off 1/4.

Quick Summary: If you're using two weapons, try to make sure they come from the same weapon category (mixing Swords and Daggers is a waste of your skill points) and concentrate on skills in the following order: 1. The specific weapon skill; 2. Dual Weapons; 3. Close/Ranged Combat.

Other possible points of note:

1. The Dual Weapons skill affects accuracy both when using two weapons for Close Combat AS WELL AS WHEN USING TWO WEAPONS FOR RANGED COMBAT. Everyone suffers an accuracy penalty when trying to throw items with both hands. Thus, the Ninja may need to spend points on Dual Weapons as well.

2. Martial Arts (fighting unarmed) is NOT affected by Dual Weapons at all. Putting points into Dual Weapons if you plan to fight with your bare hands (or with only one weapon) is a waste.

3. Fighting with a weapon and a shield is NOT affected by Dual Weapons either.

I did a little analysis of accuracy when using two weapons, and it comes up as follows:

If you are using two weapons from the SAME weapon class (ie. a Katana and a Wakizashi, two Daggers, two sets of Shurikens, etc.), the skill that contributes MOST to your accuracy is the specific weapon skill (ie. Swords, Daggers, Throwing, etc.). The skill that contributes the second greatest amount is Dual Weapons. The skill that contributes the least is Close Combat (or Ranged Combat). Thus, you should try to max the specific weapon skill first, Dual Weapons second, and Close/Ranged Combat last of all.

If you are using two weapons from DIFFERENT weapon classes (eg. a Broadsword and a Dagger), the skill that contributes the most to your accuracy is DUAL WEAPONS. After this comes the specific weapon skill of your PRIMARY weapon (in this case, Swords), and is closely followed by the specific weapon skill of your SECONDARY weapon (in this case, Daggers). Again, the skills that contributes the least is Close Combat. Note that if you use weapons from two different weapon classes, you suffer a double penalty: 1. You need to develop more skills; 2. If your skill in one weapon is low, you are less accurate with THE OTHER WEAPON TOO. Thus, if you want to use two weapons, try to use two weapons from the same weapon class.

Maxing Close Combat adds about +16% to accuracy.

Maxing Secondary Weapon Skill adds about +24%.

Maxing Primary Weapon Skill adds about +28%.

Maxing Dual Weapons Skill adds about +40%.

Maxing Both Weapon Skills (or if both hands use the same type of Weapon) adds about +56%.

Note, however, that although a person using two weapons with NO SKILLS is less accurate than a person using one weapon with no skills... a person with MAXED skills using two weapons is approximately as accurate a person with maxed skills using one weapon. Of course, the person with two weapons gets more attacks and possibly more damage, which is why you wanted to use two weapons in the first place.

Quick Summary: Characters can get more attacks using Dual Weapons in the LONG RUN.

just my $.02 as a novice..

I gave my fighter bloodlust. At lvl 10, he gets about 5 attacks per round (2x then 3x or vice versa) and hits about half the time...but he hits for 35-50 each time...which I think is pretty sweet. I gave it to my samurai and he NEVER hit. He was only lvl 8 at the time....but he always missed. It was so frustrating I gave it back to my fighter...and I love it. I think it's fine in his hands....

Just my opinion..

"Characters can get more attacks using Dual Weapons in the LONG RUN."
I believe this sums up the issue. There is great benefit to dual wielding, if all the necessary skills have been adequately built up. The tradeoff is that it takes time to do this and you need to purposively do it through practice and not get side-tracked, otherwise it will not be worth it, and frustration sets in. So if you want your samurai to do max damage/hit right from the start, forget dual wielding... but he won't be as powerful as a fully-developed dual wielder in later levels.

Personally, I've come to accept that my samurai will hit like crap during his first 10 levels or so. But that's fine with me, I'm willing to wait and patiently build up his skills because I know he'll eventually kick butt in mid-levels. I guess it also depends on party composition. I have a fighter to tank, so I can live with the initially poor hitting ability of my Samurai. I think of it as an investment that pays off in the long-term.

That's Annheiser Busch :D

Anyway, my Dexterity is 87 last time I checked and Dual Wield is about 60ish right now, but that isn't an issue since I've already stated that when switched to a different weapon (same skill) the results were vastly different. Must be my game and its messed up random function.