Hi, I am beginning to re-evaluate my choice of an Alchemist as my only pure spellcaster. Some reasons I liked the Alchemist over the Bishop:

1. The Alchemist can use the combine items button to make nifty stuff. But apparently my Ranger will be able to do that as well, so strike one against the Alchemist?

2. My alchemist will level up more quickly than a bishop and because he specializes in Achemy only he will be a more powerful caster of his albeit limited repetoire much faster. But I have recently read some things about the Bishop and methods for allocating skill points that make the Bishop seem as though although he might level up a bit slower, his overall development will not be slow enough to outweigh his excellent range of spells and his remove curse special ability? True? Opinions?

3. This single most important factor in choosing the Alchemist over even a mage was he can cast while silenced. But as I got to thinking about it...if a Bishop can cast alchemy spells, shouldn't he be able to cast those spells while silenced as well?

So let me know what you think and have learned, I am interested to hear...oh, and BTW, can a Bishop dispel undead too?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brak:
But as I got to thinking about it...if a Bishop can cast alchemy spells, shouldn't he be able to cast those spells while silenced as well?

and BTW, can a Bishop dispel undead too?<hr></blockquote>
No and no [img]smile.gif[/img]

You're confusing spellbooks and special skills. The "cast while silenced" and "turn undead" are special skills of the specialist spellcasters, mental immunity is one of the psionicists and I forget what the mage's are. Special skills only apply to your CURRENT character class, so even changing a Priest to a Mage (not that you'd ever likely want to!) will lose "turn undead".

As it so happens the Priest's skill is "turn undead" while the Bishop's is "dispel undead", not sure how they differ but they are different.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by KraGorn:

No and no [img]smile.gif[/img]

You're confusing spellbooks and special skills. The "cast while silenced" and "turn undead" are special skills of the specialist spellcasters, mental immunity is one of the psionicists and I forget what the mage's are. Special skills only apply to your CURRENT character class, so even changing a Priest to a Mage (not that you'd ever likely want to!) will lose "turn undead".

As it so happens the Priest's skill is "turn undead" while the Bishop's is "dispel undead", not sure how they differ but they are different.<hr></blockquote>

Regarding the Bishop vs. Specialist argument, the Bishop takes longer to level-up since he needs more XP to go from level 'n' to level 'n+1' than the specialist classes. Also, since you'll be studying at least 2 and up to all 4 schools level-up points spread thinner. The result is that you need to "micromanage" (as I saw someone write once) a Bishop to make sure you're continually casting spells from different schools and realms in order to boost points from practice.

If you're willing to take it slowly and are happy to have a lot of "hands on" control then the Bishop undoubtedly ends up more powerful than a specialist ... however he gets there slower and it takes patience. A common thing is to see parties with a Bishop and one other specialist, giving early access to one school's power spells, ie. level 6 and 7 spells, while eventually getting the same spell levels from 2 others schools (this is where the Bishop takes only 2 spellbooks). Some players as you will probably know only use a single Bishop with a more physical party perhaps with a spell-casting Valk or Sam as extra spellpower: a single-Bishop party is definitely slower to progress if for no other reason than they'll be lighter on healing spells than one with a specialist. Such a party is totally viable, many players have used one, but again patience is the watchword.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: KraGorn ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by KraGorn:

No and no [img]smile.gif[/img]

You're confusing spellbooks and special skills. The "cast while silenced" and "turn undead" are special skills of the specialist spellcasters, mental immunity is one of the psionicists and I forget what the mage's are. Special skills only apply to your CURRENT character class, so even changing a Priest to a Mage (not that you'd ever likely want to!) will lose "turn undead".

As it so happens the Priest's skill is "turn undead" while the Bishop's is "dispel undead", not sure how they differ but they are different.<hr></blockquote>

Hiya, you said no and no, I assume that to mean, no a Bishop cannot cast while silenced, and no a Bishop can not dispel undead. But then you went on to explain how a Bishop can cast dispel undead as opposed to the priest's turn undead. I'm so confused (and am at work so I don't have my manual). Can a Bishop dispel undead or not?

If so, it sounds like a good question might be are there more undead in the game or more mages that can silence you?

Let's hear it folks, to Bishop or not to Bishop?

Umm someone said Bishops can't dispell undead?? I guess mine are just exceptional then. Here are my observations.

1. Bishops CAN turn Undead there is a button on their action screen (where you can use potions or items or attaqck or defend)

2. My Bushops can cast certain spells (alchemy) while silenced...the list of spells are color coded red cannot be cast, orange are prohibeted due to silencing and white work just hunky dory.

3. the MYTH about slow leveling Bishops. I have the folllowing at following levels all have played continuously and the only differences in EXp's are due to unfortunate temporary deaths.

1. Fighter Level 17
1. Samauri Level 16
1. Ranger Level 16
1. Gadgeteer Level 18
2. Bishops Level 15.

I do not consider a 3 level spread excessive nor do I think I would ever want to give up the power my two bishops weild.


Thats just my take on this issue.

Thanks for the clarification on Bishops being able to cast alchemy spells while silenced. It makes sense because if I remember correctly the manual says something about the fact that an Alchemist casts his spells by using physical elements and gestures, so if a Bishop is tossing a firebomb "spell" rather than casting and fireball spell he should be able to do it while silenced.

Ok, so I am still wondering about the possibility of my ranger being able to combine items like potions and powders as effectively as an alchemist would. this appears to be the only thing holding me back from starting a bishop instead of an alchemist as my main and only pure spellcaster.

Some more clarifications / confirmations

The bishop CAN dispel undead

Anyone can cast *alchemy* spells when silenced

The bishop and the ranger CAN make potions, IF their Alchemy skill level is high enough.

Of all classes the Bishop (and the Ninja) are the slowest to level up. For example the Bishop needs 1,600 XP to reach level 2 and a Fighter only needs 1,000... and so on all the way up.

The advantages of choosing an Alchemist:
+20% in Alchemy
Can create potions while resting (Nothing to do with *mixing* potions)
Slightly faster level up

The advantages of choosing a Bishop:
Fairly obvious [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hope it helps

Yep, the able to cast while silenced is a property of the alchemy school, not a particular caster (i.e. ninjas, rangers, alchemists, and bishops can all cast alchemist spells while silenced).

Your ranger may eventually be able to mix all the potions, but it will take a very long time. Each recipe has a minimum alchemy skill requirement and as a hybrid caster your ranger will have a much lower skill than a bishop or alchemist of the same level. As an alternative, you could make your bishop study alchemy. If you are only taking one pure caster in your group, I highly recommend the bishop anyway.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brak:

Ok, so I am still wondering about the possibility of my ranger being able to combine items like potions and powders as effectively as an alchemist would.<hr></blockquote>

The alchemist does get a bonus to Alchemy, making them slightly better at combining potions than rangers. Certain potions can only be combined if the Alchemy skill is high enough.

Meaning a Ranger with 50 total in Alchemy, is exactly as good as an Alchemist with 50 total in Alchemy. But an Alchemist will probably reach 50 by level 5 whereas a Ranger will reach it about level 10.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Warhammer:
Some more clarifications / confirmations

Anyone can cast *alchemy* spells when silenced

<hr></blockquote>

What about spells that are *alchemy* spells as well as another school? Like Heal (or is it Cure?) Wounds for example: it falls under the schools of Priest, Alchemist and Psionic.

Obviously Alchemists, Rangers, Ninjas and Bishops could cast Heal Wounds while silenced. But can Priests, Psionics, Lords, etc.?

Can a Alchemist who class changes to a Priest cast Heal Wounds when silenced?

Durin I think you have to look the particular spell up to see which type of spell it is. Even though Alchemist may be able to do the heal wounds, that does not make it an alchemy spell, that is actually a divine spell and so cannot be cast while silenced even by an alchemist, you will see it highlighted as orange in your spell selection when you are silenced.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Durin the Deathless:


What about spells that are *alchemy* spells as well as another school? Like Heal (or is it Cure?) Wounds for example: it falls under the schools of Priest, Alchemist and Psionic.

Obviously Alchemists, Rangers, Ninjas and Bishops could cast Heal Wounds while silenced. But can Priests, Psionics, Lords, etc.?

Can a Alchemist who class changes to a Priest cast Heal Wounds when silenced?<hr></blockquote>

As far as the Lord and Priest are concerned Heal Wounds is a Divinity spell.

If a spell (Heal Wounds) is in many spellbooks (Alchemy, Divine and Psionic), it is considered to belong to the highest of those. Since the Lord is likely to have his divinity higher than his alchemy, the spell will be affected by silence.

Thus, a silenced Alchemist -> Priest will be able to cast "Heal Wounds" when silenced as long as his Alchemy is higher than Divinitey. And a Bishop will not be able to cast "Heal Wounds" if his Psionics is higher than alchemy.
Just my theory, I do actually have a bishop that matches that description I will test it next time he will become silenced.

Hello,

Thanks for the numerous replies. I started a Bishop last night specilaizing in Psionics and Alchemy. He really does develop a lot slower that a true specialist. Spells fizzle almost 50 percent of the time. And even though I have only been pumping Psi & Alch at level up I have been practicing the few spells he has constantly (he is pretty much always out of mana) to raise the realm points. But I have noticed that this practicing also raises the other specialties (wizardry & divinity). This might sound cool...they are going up even though I have never put a point in them...but in the end those points that come as a result of practicing are just being spread out very thin. So try as I might to get him to specialize in two schools, his constant practicing ends up speading him out anyway. Hmm, he just seems to really be struggling. But I imagine he will come up to speed eventually and I shoudn't worry about his slow progression in the early game.

Someone implied that if a Bishop had a high enough alchemy skill, they could do recipes too...is this true? Well then my bishop will most certainly be cooking things up way before my ranger!

Thanks again...what a great board.

Oh, and BTW Warhammer had some interesting thories as to what school a spell belongs to when it belongs to multiple schools. This to detimine whether the spell can be silenced or not. I'd be interested to hear anyone else's input on that sort of theory.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Warhammer:
Some more clarifications / confirmations

The bishop CAN dispel undead
<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MagiK:
Umm someone said Bishops can't dispell undead?? I guess mine are just exceptional then. Here are my observations.<hr></blockquote>

Presumably aimed at me, so READ WHAT I SAID!

I clearly stated that Bishops DISPEL undead but that Priests TURN undead ... clearly Sir-Tech think they're different because they called them different things and since TURN undead is a Priest's special skill a Bishop CAN'T TURN UNDEAD! :mad:

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: KraGorn ]

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: KraGorn ]</p>