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-   -   Magic should be banned from BG2 (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4258)

Yorick 01-04-2001 07:04 AM

Magic sux. Like it's REALLY believable. Worst part of the game for me. Yeah, like I see people spurting flame form their fingertips or summoning skeletons all the time.

Stupidist thing is Clerics. Priests can't cast spells. Oh that's right. They're MIRACLES. What I don't get is how come people die in Faerun? I mean why doesn't EVERYBODY take their mates down to the temple to get raised?

And Bards? Bards with magic suck. Other than backmasking records or stealing hearts, whoever heard of musicians making magic?

I wish they'd ban magic from ALL Ad&d games. It's evil anyway. Manipulating someones mind defies one of the fundamental laws of existence. It's just so wrong in real life so why have it in a game?

(insert picture of little orange guy shooting) This is what I'm gonna do to every magic user in BG2. Edwin, whiney useless son-of-a-horse is first, then Aerie-fairy, Jan and every other charcter that uses magic of any kind. INCLUDING MINSC AND KELDORN! Candy arsed losers.
So there.
-The Devils Advocate-



This is the only way I'll be able to get close to Angry lil'mans 70+ posts.
Can't believe you beat me to it Memnoch. I was thinking about doing this all day, and then you have to pip me to the post!

Zoratorak 01-04-2001 07:40 AM

you askin for it Yorick... a debate is a debate... i totally believe you are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY .................................................. .................... way wrong that magic sux... here is my own logic for this if you want to know....

1) im a mage (hehe) what an argument! i imagine your just gonna say "so what??"
2) anyway (a wee bit serious now) magic is very important in the world of d&d as well as bg2. that is why so many people are interested in bg2 because it is a FANTASY WORLD and ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE... almost all of the most powerful people are one way or another related to magic... Elfminister, GOrion, Saverok, Bhall and everyone else are some what related to magic ... heck! ALL THE GODS ARE MAGIC... without magic... hmmm... let me put it this way...

this is a really interesting argument since this reminds me of the time when i was still reading the sword of truth series... in the book, the people say that they can live without magic or anything reltated to magic... well let me say this to you Yorick as what the main character said to them (well close to it)... "everything is magic in this world, without it you wouldnt be living here..." if you dont get it... well let me put it this way... you cant be born in this world without magic... it is true sex = sperm+egg = baby BUT how about the soul of the body... where does it come from... its MAGIC...

secondly to you answers againt the clerics... you say that why cant you just bring all your dead people into the temple and have them raised right?? well there is really a flaw in the game of bg2... people cant just be raised in the true harcore rulez in d&d... i think the creators just did that because alot of people would be crying thier hearts out because they cant ressurect thier npc after more than a couple of hours... secondly clerics would need more than a fulls day rest when they ressurect somebody... and third thier god doesnt ressurect just anybody you know... fourth- the ressurection is quite expensive and only the high class can afford them... fifth- didnt you notice at the start that you cant ressurect Khalid anymore? (the husband of Jahera and he wuz alive during bg1)

3rd= you think bards suck because music makes magic... hmmm let me ask a question with a question my dear Yorick... why does a sword kill a person or why do we breath air no water? Answer: because it is like that and we cant do anything about it. The creators of bg2 as well as d&d made it that way... besides it is quite interesting concept dont you think? try reading (if your an avid reader) spellsong wars series... thier magic is totally based on music or the bardsong series (sorry i forgot the authors)

hey hey hey... manipulating someones minds may be quite indecent and quite wrong ... but do not blame magic for the cause of that... if we are talkin real life here... then your might as well putting the blame on the hackers, government, and the real life gypsies in thier world... dont forget that we have real psychics too in this world that can make things float... isnt that MAGIC??

whew (fingers are shaking) man what a long argument... anyway... ps Yorick: sorry if i cant reply right away (if you replay back to my argument) ... i have school, assignments PLUS i live in the south east asia with a biggy time differece here... oh yeah... this post might overtake ltl mans post... GL with that.

Arak 01-04-2001 07:41 AM

You're right Yorick, in all but one thing, Music is the closest thing to magic you'll ever get.

Oh, and i'd like to see you kick Minscs behind, you'd have Boo all over you in seconds biting and squiking and kicking with his little legs.

Moiraine 01-04-2001 08:02 AM

I am a little off topic, but it reminds me of a discussion I have had recently.
Why, oh why, in EVERY fantasy world or book or movie or game or whatever, people free themselves with earthly rules via magic and such, but NEVER free themselves of gravity ?
I mean, if I am a gnome, I am small, so I cannot hold much weight, "because it is not realistic" ...
WHAT ?!? In the first place, gnomes do not exist, so why could a gnome-that-does-not-possibly-exist-in-a-world-that-is-not-real hold 1000 tons of equipment ???

Yorick 01-04-2001 08:11 AM

Yes, yes very good Moiraine (did you get my last email BTW?). I heard a radio interview with Raymond E. Fiest of 'Magician' fame and he brought up that phenomenen.
He said it was important to establish a set of rules (no matter what they were) and consistently adhere to them. What then became 'unbelievable' was then in relation to the preset laws of the fantasy realm.

Gnomes are deemed to be weaker, yet their cousins the Dwarves are hardier even than humans!

Moiraine 01-04-2001 08:18 AM

Yes, I agree with the fact that a set of rules is needed, otherwise the game or book would be really boring, but my point was : why are people more reluctant to change some rules than to change another ?
I mean, in our real world, somebody very small cannot hold much, OK, and somebody dead cannot live again, OK, and in AD&D, people can accept that raising dead people is possible, but they just cannot accept somebody tiny could hold a whole building on his back.
One day, I will just write a Fantasy book, and make MY set of rules. Ha !

Yorick 01-04-2001 08:20 AM

What about 'Mighty Mouse'?

Moiraine 01-04-2001 08:28 AM

If I do not want any reader of an age greater than 3, I should just choose this title !

Arak 01-04-2001 08:31 AM

Was Mighty Mouse always super strong or did he have to eat something or was that some other character??

Zoratorak 01-04-2001 08:34 AM

LOL !!!!!!!
you might as well include super ant

Yorick 01-04-2001 08:34 AM

What, like 'Bananaman?

Yorick 01-04-2001 08:36 AM

Zor, why aren't you at school? I haven't replied so as not to distract you! Where in S.E. Asia are you bro?

Zoratorak 01-04-2001 08:40 AM

heh... i live in the Philippines... (with all the choas as well as anarchy that is happening here) i usually reply when all of you guys are not around but since the argument got so interesting i stuck around for a while (its night time now like 9:36 and usually im long gone) ...besides im gonna go to bed in 20 min...

anyway for the poor misinformation: its atom ant not super ant

Yorick 01-04-2001 08:58 AM

The Philipines, wow, I love the net! And yes, I remember Atom Ant.
Isn't Bahamut from the Philipines too?

Anyhow, you presented a compelling argument. I think you may have scored against me dear fellow.

Zoratorak 01-04-2001 09:08 AM

thanks for the compliment yorick... thats quite a compliment since im only 17 here in this world. i got all my based philosophies from reading all those fantasy books...

anyway did you know Memnoch also came from the Philippines?

im going to bed now and i will wait for your argument tomorrow Yorick.. good night (well here anyway)

Memnoch 01-04-2001 09:38 AM

I come from all over the place. My father's half spanish-half filipino, my mother's half chinese half filipino, i grew up in los angeles, then moved to sydney which is the most KICKASS CITY IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!



Isn't it beautiful? I live on the right side of the bridge, about 2 mins walk from the water.

Sorry to go off topic yet again but good to see vigorous enlightening debate! Galeng Zor!

Galeng means well done btw

Yorick 01-04-2001 09:54 AM

Isn't that interesting! No, I had no idea.

Memnoch you know I live about 25 mins walk from you over in Cremorne don't you?

I use a female half-Filipino violinist whenever I use violins. She plays like a dream. (Wouldn't you say Moiraine?)

And yeah Sydney is stunning. I love catching ferries into Circular Quay from Cremorne at night. Sometimes it feels a bit like Blade Runner looking at the lit buildings as the ferry trundles in.

Yorick 01-04-2001 10:00 AM

Isn't that interesting! No, I had no idea.

Memnoch you know I live about 25 mins walk from you over in Cremorne don't you?

I use a female half-Filipino violinist whenever I use violins. She plays like a dream. (Wouldn't you say Moiraine?)

And yeah Sydney is stunning. I love catching ferries into Circular Quay from Cremorne at night. Sometimes it feels a bit like Blade Runner looking at the lit buildings as the ferry trundles in.

Moiraine 01-04-2001 10:06 AM

I want to go to Australia !!!
(Did I not say that already before ?)

Memnoch 01-04-2001 10:31 AM

Where in France do u live Moiraine? The City of Lights?

Yorick 01-04-2001 10:34 AM

Bloody hell! I double posted! Sorry about that. I knew as soon as I pressed resend instead of cancel when I timed out that I should've pressed the other button.
Did anyone else have difficulties?

You should come to Oz Moiraine! Did you ever read a reply of mine to one of the threads lost in the ether about Australia and its diverse beauty and danger. Bummer it's lost as I spent a bit of time on that and now it's gone.

Moiraine 01-04-2001 10:54 AM

Yes, I remember the thread you speak of, and I remember thinking 'Wow ! What can I possibly answer to that ?' So I let pass several days, and then the thread went away, and I never answered.
(Another thought popping out was 'What the hell is an octopus ?!?')

And maybe your post is not lost : As I told you, when I connect from home, I get thrown out so often that I remember having saved several posts on my computer in text files. I'll check tonight if you post is in one of them.

And, Memnoch, I live in the country near Grenoble (SE of France, in the middle of the mountain range called the Alps). 3 H by train to Paris.

We had a beautiful Christmas with snow all around. How can you guys spend Christmas in Summer ?

Yorick 01-04-2001 11:10 AM

Went to a beach on christmas day with family. Beeuuudaaful.

An octopus is an eight legged ocean dwelling mollusc related to the squid. They vary in size have 'clingers' on the tentacles or legs, and the blue ringed variey I spoke of (blue bands on the legs) can be fatal.

Hey, I've been watching the history channel on cable and watched an interesting show about Venezia and how it's sinking! Now I'm watching about the Ayatollah Khomenii of Iran. Fascinating, but I preferred the beauty of Venice.

Anyway the funniest thing is when it's really hot round christmas yet you'll see Santa decked out for the cold weather - boots, coat and hat.

Rikard T'Aranaxz 01-04-2001 01:55 PM

What the ■■■■

Who said magic only excist in fantasy worlds?

Magic serounds you even now
we chose to forget it
becoz it would disturb the wave

And

Holy Mage Wah 01-04-2001 03:48 PM

YEAHH!!! You tell him Rikard.

What the hell is a game without magic?

Fancy picking your Dagger + 1 at Firkraag's arse till he screams "nooooooo don't kill me Mr Fighter"?

And speaking of weapons, what about those enchanted ones? Are you saying that we should have a game with only NORMAL WEAPONS such as plain old axes and swords??!!!
BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING!!!

Rikard T'Aranaxz 01-04-2001 05:08 PM

what classes would be left if there would be no magic

lets see
a fighter
and a thief

that should be nice

and how about monsters
no monsters are left either

yeah let's fight that creature that does not excist with our swords which have no magic
that would be fun

Yorick 01-05-2001 12:33 AM

Ok, Zor's argument left me with no reply, so comprehensive was the response, but I can respond to these latest couple of replies....... Hooharharhar (picture maniac laughing evilly)

First of all a +1 dagger is still magic so I would even advocate that to kill a dragon - which shouldn't exist in the game anyway. The Komodo is the closest thing that resembles such a ridiculously fanciful being, and you don't need a magic sword to kill it!

And yeah, what's wrong with only having fighters and thieves, isn't 'Thief - The Metal Age' about just having a thief. As Moraine stated why have some rules following reality and others not! For a really believable scenario magic should be BANNED! Everything's magical because that's the only way to beat magical problems, if no magic existed there would still be problems, but also solutions which are more realistic. I doubt it would be boring Wah - life isn't. And Rikard does magic really exist? It seems through history anything that can't be explained or properly understood is.... 'MAGICAL'.

Let's look at fortune tellers. Any nob could write a star-sign guide. Read one believing yourself to be an aquarius and it'll apply to you. Read one believe yourself to be Boneheadtaurus and it'll apply to you. If those guys could REALLY tell the future, why don't they put bets on Sporting achievements and make a killing instead of sitting in a cramped little shop.

Even say that modern witchcraft/wicca actually works, it's nothing like what happens in BG2. Who summons Ogres or Flints to hack people to death? Who runs around at double speed?
Unless modern day alchemists are those who create performance enhancing drugs it's entirely unbelievable.

Here's a funny story. I had a mate who had some friends who were into the 'Power' of a spirit because unseen it could open a door or turn off a light. And his response was: Big deal, even I can open a door or turn off a light!

(Seriously though this point of mine has nothing to do with whether it exists in the real world or not, that's actually a very delicate and serious subject and if not for the sake of humor I would not have brought it up.)

My point is magic should be BANNED FROM BG2 yeah!

(Mages)

(Druids)

(Clerics)

(any other candy-arsed loser that can't rely on their own power to fight their battles and need a magic 'crutch')

-The Devils Advocate-

__________________________________________________ _______________________________

How does this compare to angry lil'man?

Armisael 01-05-2001 02:57 AM

Heh. Maybe they'll make a game where the objective is to land a job, manage to keep it, and fend repo men away from your apartment with a cricket bat. On the other hand, perhaps we'll end up with one where people have purple skin and green hair. Everyone could live underwater and walk around on their hands. You'd have to say 'goodbye' when you meet someone and 'hello' when they leave (or would it be 'badbye'?).

hobs 01-05-2001 03:12 AM

bah.. without magic in game there would not be even this forum. Play "thief2" if you don't like magic. Besides, bards should have level 7, 8 and9 spells also!

-hobs-

Zoratorak 01-05-2001 03:14 AM

hmm... i really want to answer your post Yorick but it seems only just as well as proper for Rickard and Holy Magi Wah to defend thier own logic... i will watch and listen to the arguments... ( i believe in the quote "you messed it up, you mop it up"

oh yeah if you guys need any of my help "just ask" =)

now who can challenge my arguments... hmmm why not me...lets see now... err.. ahh... gee... i hope im dont sound like bragging but my arguments does not leave any weak points ... and i cant seem to even answer my own argument... hehe

anyone????

Zoratorak 01-05-2001 04:00 AM

hmmm... oh yeah... before i forget... Hey Memnoch,i have an "tito" living close in Sydney Harbor (if that is what you call it in the picture)... and it must be nice to live so near there... i saw the fireworks in cnn ... it made me wish i wuz there at that moment... (sniff) (it wuz during the new year)... man it was so beautiful and spectacular to watch those fireworks and have a cool party with friends and everything... heck it rained here in my place for the new year but for some reason it stopped when it reached midnight... and thats the time we did our fireworks... which looks like "watusi" compared to your own fireworks... but a new year is a new year and a HAPPY BELATED NEW MILLENIUM NEW YEAR TO ALL OF YOU....

Ëlrøñd the §ørçerer 01-05-2001 04:48 AM

Hmmmm..... Maybe Im mistaken, but player-characters can't use the spell "Dimension Door", can they? Well, I think that is a bunch of
Bull pucky, I mean, these idiot cowled wizards can just cast a spell
and *POOF* there gone, they can get away from any fight... My point
is that the BG team should have included a "Dimension Door" spell
with BG2:SoA, The only problem is that, where would you be "teleported"
to?

P.S: I have finaly reached the xp cap without cheating and I am glad
I didn't cheat, I love the feeling when you blow apart a group of trolls
with a delayed blast firball.. all the pieces... so beuatiful...
I think, notice the key-word, think, I could face up to any other magic
user and win, im about 95% sure of that. So dont go and start an argument
about whos the strongest magic user, its just a thought.


- Elrond

Ëlrøñd the §ørçerer 01-05-2001 04:48 AM

Hmmmm..... Maybe Im mistaken, but player-characters can't use the spell "Dimension Door", can they? Well, I think that is a bunch of
Bull pucky, I mean, these idiot cowled wizards can just cast a spell
and *POOF* there gone, they can get away from any fight... My point
is that the BG team should have included a "Dimension Door" spell
with BG2:SoA, The only problem is that, where would you be "teleported"
to?

P.S: I have finaly reached the xp cap without cheating and I am glad
I didn't cheat, I love the feeling when you blow apart a group of trolls
with a delayed blast fireball.. all the pieces... so beuatiful...
I think, notice the key-word, think, I could face up to any other magic
user and win, im about 95% sure of that. As for fighters.. well.. eh.. I could destroy a Middle class (50% of full power), and a semi-pro (75-85% of full power, as for 86-100%, there is a slight chance that I could kill them, but I wouldn't count on it. So dont go and start an argument
about whos the strongest magic user, or fighter, its just a thought.


- Elrond

Memnoch 01-05-2001 06:21 AM

Zor, my sister and my folks spent nye in manila making paputok. the fun is you can set them off yourself!

taga saan ka sa atin?

Zoratorak 01-05-2001 06:46 AM

masaya naman dito noong new year (err sorry if others cant understand this language its filipino) taga Quezon City ako... naiingit lang ako sa mga paputok niyo...

ok talaga pumunta ang ate and ang pamilya mo dito...
errr.. waita minute you mean in Austrailia you cant light up your own fireworks?? heh at least i was able to light up a few before we ran out...

Ëlrøñd the §ørçerer 01-05-2001 06:46 AM

?



My magical bunny freind..

( V )
( ºº )
(")¿(")

( V )
( ºº )
(")¿(")

( V )
( ºº )
(")¿(")

( V )
( ºº )
(")¿(")

( V )
( ºº )
(")¿(")

Rikard T'Aranaxz 01-05-2001 01:43 PM

How can i explain it to such a simpleton
hm
how do you know life excist you just do
how do you know that you can really think you just do
How do you know magic excist you just do

there is magic
a wave
magic alternates that waave doing thing that seem impossble
it's hard to explain
to a simpleton
as i said

Irishman 01-05-2001 08:12 PM

First, I would just like to address the fact that you claim that bards should not be magic users. For one you obviously do not know the origin of bards. Bards were druids in ancient Ireland that were feared for there ability to charm and cast magic at simple sound of their voices set on high in glorious song. So you see magic has been with the bards since the beginning and I suggest you do not make such an argument again unless you know the facts to back it up.

Nextly, the fact that you say priests shouldn't be able to use magic... Well what other use would a priest be? If they had no magical abilities then there disadvantages would obviously outweigh any non-magical advantages they might have. The magic that a priest recieves come from the deity he/she serves. As so do druids though instead of a deity their power comes from the earth itself. You could call them miracles if you wish. And the reason why not everyone in Faerun goes to the temple and gets raised is because many can't afford it obviously. And in some case a ressurection is not possible. For example any time a body is completely destroyed.

As for you complaining about it being 'believable', this is a fantasy game. What do you expect? You fool. Another thing if you disagree with magic and if you feel it is evil and wish to participate in no game in which magic is repesented, then I suggest you don't buy anymore fantasy games because I don't know of any that don't have some portrayal of magic. And finally, It is no doubt that while playing this game your warrior (or whatever you used) at some point used magic to your benefit, whether it be in a potion, weapon or armor. And if you did not use any of these items then I don't see how you could have gotten succesfully through the entire game.

Jon the Hell Caster 01-05-2001 08:18 PM

everyone go to My rant against Rikard and read my and Holy Mage Wah's arguments --- guarented to bring a laugh!

Yorick 01-05-2001 09:57 PM

Hey Rikard,
On the matter of existence, and at the risk of sounding like a total naval gazing w----r, we can't even proove life exists, all an individual can proove is that that particular individual exists. (I think, therefore I am)

Hey Irishman,
Yes I am very familiar with Celtic history, both legendary and factual, I am also familiar with the Ad&d players handbook which infers that while they contain some similarities, Bards are NOT modelled completely on Celtic Bards.

In Ad&d they are Rogues, not second or third in societies heirachy as in Celtic life. As I stated in the first point, through history magic tends to be ascribed to anything we can't understand. How do three notes, or sound waves played in unison invoke feelings of sadness? MAGIC! How did he pull the rabbit out of his hat? MAGIC! How did the Bards after 20 years of studying oral history and committing it to memory manage to capture and entrance audiences with their musical prowess, mastery of performance and storytelling wizardry do so? MAGIC!

Re. charming animals, well even snake charmers can 'charm' an animal, and when I sing my mates little dog goes crazy. Starts jumping up and down in a happy exited manner and won't leave me alone. MAGIC??

On the matter of priests, well what do you think their value would be? Whether miraculous healings occur or not, the power of the mind in relation to the body's restoration is so vitally linked. Priests and modern day ministers play a vital role in someone's journey to recovery by focussing on that persons mind and spirit rather than just trying to kill a virus.

On the matter of the game, completion would possibly be impossible without magic because magic is intrinsically tied to the game world and game plot, not because it's impossible to complete a role playing game magicless. Magic in the game is also a way of simplifying complex and varied roles particular skills have in life.........

BUT IT SUX AND SHOULD BE BANNED YEAH!!!!

__________________________________________________ ______________________
-The Devils Advocate-




Lastly Irishman, before you get too upset and start flaming me again, read how I've been signing this thread's posts and then go and read 'I hate harpers and druids' by angry lil'man and you'll understand what I'm doing. Though many a true word is said in jest, humour is the spice of life.

I'm after you lil'man. I want 70+ replies too!...... But where are you buddy?


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