Open field, with three landmarks: Raistlin's tower (no grove or creatures, just his lab and the portal), Elminster's Tower, and Bilbo's house. No prisoner's or friends, except those summonded by spells and whatnot.

Is it the Gandalf before the balrog fight or after it?

If before it then it would be an interesting fight, but if after it, then Gandalf would easily win.

Gmm, not to discredit gandalf, but he did not show any special arcane prowness. My gold is on my previous avatar. ;)

[ 06-30-2004, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Black Baron ]

Elminster, after all he is Mystra's chosen, and can even engage in mellee with the Thoundrous Longsword. Is immune to most Raistlin's spells and even Gandalf can't touch him with his judo-telekinetic staff. Unless raist conjures up a demon or something... man, I gotta read some Raistlin books.

Well since Elminster is just one of many Reincarnations of Gandalf I'd have to say that those two fighting each other would likely draw... the appropriate comparison in Raist's world to the other two is Fizban, and except for the time Raist turned into a god, Fizzie could always have gotten the better of him.

spoilers for those not knowing LotR very well:


After Gandalf was sent back by the valar after he died in the balrog fight he was immune to all weapons and he also became much more powerful. He could easily defeat any melee only opponent and even before his transformation he took care of a balrog, who are quite powerful.

And Gandalf does have powerful magic, you just don't see much of it in the books. The most of it you see are fireworks and him using his staff as a light. However after a careful read of the appendices you find that he is quite powerful. HE threw out evil from Dol Guldur (Sauron's stronghold before Mordor), he defeats Saruman, etc. And he also has his elven ring.

So I'd have to go with Gandalf.

I'll go with Raistlin. Reasons? 1) Utterly ruthless. 2) He gets the edge for sheer determination - the only one of the three to overcome a significant physical handicap 3) He got tough enough to dominate Dragonlance's magicians and challenge the gods WITHOUT significant aid from other gods. ::cough, Elminster::

Elminster is too munchkin for me, and Gandalf shows hints of his power but Tolkien gives frustratingly few details. It's too convenient that Gandalf becomes a superhuman after fighting the balrog. Also, this topic is listed as Gandalf *the Grey*, which means before he took the balrog.

Besides, Gandalf and Elminster are kind of unreal characters - even the books dealing with them as up-and-coming mages are afterthoughts; Raistlin is the one that truly develops.

<font color=plum><font color=red>Raistlin</font> - Defeated a diety (Takhisis) on her home plane by himself. Any PnP gamers will know that killing a diety on their home plane is most likely the greatest challenge any character could face. Is easily the most powerful mage in Krynn.

<font color=yellow>Elminster</font> - The chosen champion (and possible consort) to Mystra, Goddess of Magic in the Forgotten Realms. Power level is equal to a demi-god. Can fight with a sword as well as a staff and/or spells.

<font color=silver>Gandalf</font> - the original fantasy wizard and the mold after which all others are patterned. Gandalf is also not mortal. He is a Maiar, which in Tolkien's Middle Earth, is roughly the equivalent of a lesser god. Wields incredible power, but doesn't do so openly. He can also fight with a sword as well as a staff or spells.

That's a rough breakdown of the advantages each mage has in the conflict. Any of the three could win on any given day. Any of the three could also be beaten on any given day.

Gandalf has the most innate power of the three (Elminster got a lot of help from Mystra whenever the yogurt hit the fan). Raistlin is the weakest of the three (at least on paper), but he still managed to defeat a diety on her homeplane, so he could defeat Elminster and Gandalf both under the right circumstances. I'm not impressed with Raistlin's "ruthlessness". It may be intimidating from a human standpoint, but it isn't jack squat compared to the sheer evil and power of a Balrog - and Gandalf defeated the balrog in single combat.

Of course, Elminster went down to Hell (or Hades or whatever) and slaughtered entire hordes of demons on their homeplane. They may not be as powerful as the resident diety of that plane, but their power is increased on their homeplane and the sheer numbers should have been enough to complete smother Elminster.

So all three have faced - and defeated - unimaginably powerful foes.

One thing is for sure, you would have to watch from a safe distance, but it would be an awesome spectacle to behold.</font>

One thing to remember is that Balrogs in JRR's world are not just demons but gods that have chosen to rebel. As was Sauron and Morgoth. If I recall correctly Sauron and the Balrogs were of an equal order when they served under Morgoth the first Dark Lord.

[ 07-02-2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Rokenn ]

Uh... What? Elminster's immune to a total of 9 or so spells due to his Chosen of Mystra status/template, but that's about it. Also, I'm pretty certain that the telekinetic attack Gandalf uses in the movie are not part of the books (correct me if I'm wrong).

Now, thinking in terms of pure levels, I'm pretty sure Elminster's higher level than Raistlin was (I seem to remember him being in the low 20s, level-wise, but that could easily be off). Of course, Elminster's actual 3ed writeup is pretty unimpressive considering how powerful he should be at his CR (caster level 29 at CR 45, in exchange for 5 mostly useless levels and a template that's not overly impressive? A decently-built pure caster would shred him with ease, unless Mystra keeps resurrecting him, I'm pretty sure.), so it's debatable. Especially seeing as I don't currently have my hands on any writeup for Raistlin. I'm guessing it'd be a pretty close match, however.

Now, as for either of the two versus Gandalf... Blargh. Kind of difficult to compare, considering how very different the magic systems used by Tolkien and by D&D are. However, I'd put my money on Gandalf, simply because he is, as Cerek said, one of the Maiar. Still, it's a very shaky comparison.

Out of curiosity, for anyone who's read Voyage of the Fox Rider (Dennis L. McKiernan) or The White Order and The Colors of Chaos (L.E. Modesitt, Jr.), any thoughts on how Durlok or Jeslek (assuming I spelled that right) would stack up? I'd stick those two above either of the D&D mages, I'm thinking...

[ 07-02-2004, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Encard ]

Sauron and the Balrogs were all maiar, and Sauron was the greatest of the maiar.

Sauron and the Balrogs were all maiar, and Sauron was the greatest of the maiar. </font>[/QUOTE]Morgoth was a Valar and perhaps most powerful next to Manwe (sp?), as I recall from the Silmarillion he and Manwe were the only two Valar to create their own races (Orc's and Dwarves) although Orc's I think were a perversion of Elves so you could argue that he didn't actaully create anything... just destroyed the pure Elves.

As I recall (could be faulty but I'm sure will be corrected if so [img]smile.gif[/img] ) Sauron was Morgoth's chief "luitenant" and by far the most powerful of his forces other than Morgoth himself (once Sauron got trained up that is), the Balrog's were Morgoth's Generals and were a challenge in open combat to the most powerful Elves of the First Age (most of which were killed off in various wars, but they were butt kicking powerful). One thing that's interesting about Tolkien is that Elves themselves, although considered just another Race, were VERY powerful, especially the Hero's. It's one of the gripes I've got about the movie, if as many elves had shown up for Helm's Deep as the movie portrays the Uruk's would never have gained the deeping wall, much less the keep. 400 or 500 elves could hold that keep against ANY number of Orc's, especially since the approach to the keep was narrow and would limit the attacking forces that could actually engage to probably less than a thousand at a time.

The one other thing I would note about the Raist/Elminster/Gandalf comparison is that Gandalf's true power came from his ability to "see" what would be needed and guide others to be in the right place at the right time. I saw him more as a General who marshalled his troops and fought when needed. Elminster I seem to recall behaved similarly in some of the stories I've read. Raist was pretty much a hands on guy, not a great leader of men, but a powerful solo player.

Tolkien ROCKS! (even though he gave Balrog's useless wings) [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-03-2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

You're right about Morgoth, I'm pretty sure... However, I don't think it was Manwe who was the most powerful fot he Valar. The reason the others didn't make their own races (assuming I'm remembering this right) was that none of them had the capability to give them free will. Manwe ended up having to ask the Creator-person (can't remember the name) to give them that. I can't remember the name of the most powrful of the Valar.

Now, this is all assuming my memory's half-decent. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

The "Creator-person" is Iluvatar, or with other names The One, Eru. He created the ainu, who later became the valar. Manwe was the most powerful of the valar. That is, if my Tolkien encyclopedia is correct. :D

It's all in the first chapter of the Silmarillion...

I don't know, I had more trouble with that book than I did with Ulysses.

Considering that the geek factor in this thread has reached pandemic perportions, I'm not afraid to expose a little geekery myself (but I won't bite off chicken heads) in this debate...

However, I'd be way out of my depth, I know at best a part of 1/3 of the necessary information to develop a point of contention...

Hrm... Odd, was sure Manwe wasn't quite the most powerful. Bah, darn bad memory. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

You're probably thinking of Iluvatar... as dplax mentioned, Iluvatar wasn't a Valar but maybe Tolkiens world's equivelant of God.

I never got through a complete read of the Silmarillion, but I've listened to it on CD a couple times... MUCH easier going that way.

Try reading the unpared version of James Joyce's Ulysses...I hate plugging books, but that book just takes inaccessible to new heights...