I remember what Memnoch said about Spellfire sucking, but I decided to waste some time before the new Drow series 'Insurrection' book arrives, so I am reading this... (it's been re-released) but I have the old paperback.

Anyway.. heh.. Mem, you are dead-on about this Book.. a group of training mages manages to kill not 1, but TWO Dracoliches and then gives Manshoon and the Black dragon he was riding on a severe beating... Oh yeah, Elminster was there towards the end, but come on.... I was laughing it was so silly.

Anyway, Mem--have you picked up the new Drizzt Novel, The Thousand Orcs? and BTW, Book III of the Archwizards is out! I just picked it up as well.

The LAST Archwizards book (Which was an Anthology and NOT really good IMO) Glad we are getting back to the story! :D

glad i never picked up that stinker.

<font color="#00ccff">Am I the only one who really liked the recent two book rerelease of SpellFire?</font>

Is that the one with Alias? If so, I didn't care for it much either. It feels kind of weird calling a fantasy book unrealistic, but it is...in a fantasy sense.

is that the one with a girl named shandril or something like that and when she comes in contact with magic she absorbs it and can spit it back in the form of spellfire? I thought it was at least mildly amusing, if that was the book you are talking about I forget the title :D

looked it up on amazon and that was the book i was talking about. I even read/own the second in the series called CROWN OF FIRE, and i think eddy even came out with a recent thrid book in the series called, probably for lack of a better title, HAND OF FIRE. I havent read that one yet though I am way behind on my fantasy reading, I have been focusing more on the classics lately, but work is a little slow so I should be able to catch up rather quickly RA's new book here i come

<font color = lightgreen>I think you'll find that most of the early Forgotten Realms books are not quite up to the standards of great fiction, if you know what I mean. Those books were taken from gaming sessions with the group that included Ed Greenwood and Jeff Grubb (and others); they made sure that their characters were the most powerful ones in the Realms. As it is, you cannot defeat Elminster, now matter how powerful you are or how much you try. Go figure....</font>

<font color="#00ccff">Azred I think you mighthave hiton something there. Maybe the reason I like the early Forgotten Realms books is because they do stem from gaming sessions, sessions like those are what I started into the fantasy world with. </font>

Hmm, there are quite a few old books I like--The Avatar Trilogy was awesome, Pools of Radiance and a few others.. I think it's just Ed Greenwood, hell, have you SEE the pic of him on the www.wizards.com site? He thinks he IS Elminster.. looks just like him. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I bet he lives in his Parents basement!! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

If you want to read some great fiction, I strongly recommend the a "Song Of Ice And Fire" series from Geroge R.R. Martin. Since I read those, I find most other novels too cheesy to read.

I can list a great series that was based largely off of gaming sessions, the Dragonlance trilogy (the first chronicles series) some things like Tas using the wicker dragon were taken straight out of RPing.

the Avatar trilogy (time of troubles books) had a very definite feel of coming right out of a gaming group, that said I really didn't care for them that much, along with the lone greenwood book I've read formed my great distaste for the FR setting, granted Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Dragonlance, and Dark Sun also have their fair share of stinkers (I can't comment on Planescape, Birthright or Spelljammer as i haven't read the books on those settings). But it took alot of coaxing from friends and cousins to get me to pick up the dark elf trilogy, which i do BTW love

I bet he does live in his parents basement, He is kind of wankeriffic, but his name should aleast include one UBER in it: Ed "UBER" Greenwood.

The last book I read from Greenwood was Elminster in Hell

The book sucked and I was highly dissapointed. I hope he gets his act together soon because the man can write well if he wants but lately he has been in a rut.

n/m

hmmm images are turned off in the book forum???

[ 11-07-2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Wurm ]

I've read Elminster in Hell... I think it's obvious he stoped writing stories for us and his now writing them to "hear his own voice".

He just like to see Elminster do anything impossible.

while he can do good things, like the FR setting I think he assumes FR characters will all be uber-superheroes like the characters in his books, case in point, the module that shipped with th revised 2nd ed FR setting had an adventure in shadowdale, well under it to be more precise, dealing with drow, almost every enemy faced had weapons coated with drow sleep poison, how the hell is a party of 1-3 lvl characters supposed to survive the first few encounters, let alone finish it, esp when you have to wait some 1d4 HOURS for the poison to wear off...

Yes.. that quest came in the 2nd Forgotten Realm boxed set. I tried it with a friend, but I removed the poison, I thought it was an overkill.

Spellfire was my introduction to Forgotten Realms. Since I had not played any of the games nor read any of the other books its inconsitencies were not apparent to me. It made a nice quick read (1day) for me and I got it for 50 cents so I came out OK. I think it pretty much reflects Ed's writing. Sometimes it is good and other times it is a vacuumm in reverse (for those of you who are right-handed that means it blows).

I cut my teeth with the Dragonlance novels.....since then ive read many fantay books some good others not so much....Forgotten Realms are the best IMHO.....anyway just finished Thousand Orcs it was good but i just keep wondering when someone is gonna die...I know drizzt cant but Damn they cant keep getting by witj the skin of their teeth...its getting out of control....I say Cattie gotta go....probably my least favorite charater out of the hundreds of books ive read.....anyone else have an opinion on this

Steve, if you think so, then you NEED to read a "Song Of Ice And Fire" series from George R.R Martin.

In his books, no characters are all good, or evil, they are all shades of gray. And even good caracters get killed. So you are ALWAYS on edge when reading his books.

In forgotten realms books, a main character could be surrounded by 30 demons and 50 dragons, and I would not even fear for his life. In a Song of Ice and Fire, the charater is riding his horse, and I am effraid he will fall down and die...

I am telling you... George R.R. Martin is the Stephen King of fantasy literature.

<font color="#33cc33">Was that the re-released version of Spellfire? Greenwood had to cut the story in half to get it published the first time, which is apparently aprt of why the original book was not so popular. The new re-release has all that stuff replaced and the story makes more sense now. (actually he re-released both the Spell Fire novels.)</font>

I like the origional Spellfire mostly because of the Knights of Myth Drannor. I just got Hand of Fire (to finish out the series) and I now have to say that I agree completly with Z and Memnoc! I only got about 50 or so pages in before I quite. Shandril ends up being naked 4 or 5 times for no good reason. Sharantyr has a scene or two plus a Dutchess or the like, and a few others. IN 50 PAGES! It's not like it's even good smut .... the kind of drivel you would expect a 12 or 13 year old boy writes for his friends. All of it completely distracts from the plot (if there is one). The impression I am left with is Greenwood is just an old perv.

If you want to read some great fiction, I strongly recommend the a "Song Of Ice And Fire" series from Geroge R.R. Martin. Since I read those, I find most other novels too cheesy to read.</font>[/QUOTE]Amen.

I do credit Ed Greenwood for entirely creating the basic Forgotten Realms setting. A feat. But, in and of itself, this relates his chessy-fantasy nature. I posted this once already, but Sea of Swords really sucks.

Steve, if you think so, then you NEED to read a "Song Of Ice And Fire" series from George R.R Martin.

In his books, no characters are all good, or evil, they are all shades of gray. And even good caracters get killed. So you are ALWAYS on edge when reading his books.

I am telling you... George R.R. Martin is the Stephen King of fantasy literature.</font>[/QUOTE]I get the feeling you like George R.R. Martin :D Its a great series, wish the next one would come out soon! You're right about the shades of grey. Do you like Robin Hobb?

I really like Geroge R.R. Martin! [img]smile.gif[/img] I'm preaching about him on every forum I post on.

My goal is to get people to read his books, but I rarely get feedback, so I don't know if it's working or not... :( His next novel is coming out in april by the way.

I've never heard of Robin Hobb, but if his novels are similar to Martin I will buy them.

Yes, Greenwood add lots of gratuitous nudity in his novels. I don't think I ever saw a novel he wrote that does not include a female character getting naked for no reason, and about half of the time one end up naked, Elminster is there to watch...

I like the books SPELLFIRE and Crown of Fire but I would like to see something with a little more reality to it. I mean I can understand Shandrill starts off as a thief and then becomes an Adventurer but killing a Dracolich in her first year get real that should only happen by the end of her first decade as an Adventurer.

She is not a regular character using regular abilities, she is using spellfire.

If at all... I don't think that there should be as many Dracolichs in the realms as most writers seem to think.

[img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

I hope you didn't spend money on Spellfire, Z...I think that a 6-pack of toilet paper would have been cheaper and probably more comfortable as well. :D

Spellfire - A literary masterpiece...in comedy. A book about adventure? Try Sweet Valley High maybe. Shandril and her doofus boyfriend spend practically the ENTIRE novel drooling over each other and blasting every manner of powerful creature imaginable, including the most powerful dracolich that ever lived, a few Level 18 mages, baatezu, dragons, Manshoon, you name it, she can cook it. Makes your BG2 characters seem outright puny. Maybe the book should be titled, "Shandril Satay Sizzlers". :rolleyes:

And moving on to the sequel "Crown of Fire" (Mystra help us if he ever comes up with a trilogy!) there's the obligatory nude scene featuring Storm and Elminster (ever notice how all these sex scenes involve Elminster?) what is the point of that? I quote: "Clothing floated through the air in his direction; more than once Storm smiled her thanks at him. When she was done, he merely said, 'Ye still look magnificent lass.'"" C'mon! Elminster's not a dirty old man. Is he?? Didn't he look after Storm when she was still a baby? And I recall Ed saying that Ed (oops, I mean Elminster) has had sexual relations with ALL the Seven Sisters - who all look alike, incidentally. At least we all know what his type is, eh!! Of course when they lie together Storm is unclad while El is not. Of course!

I'm not even going to mention how often Shandril walks around naked for NO REASON AT ALL. In fact she even sits on a Lord of Waterdeep's head naked! :rolleyes: I'd long ago given up trying to understand how certain events described linked back to the plot, so I won't even make an attempt to make a connection here. Thank Tempus there was a rug between her and the guy's head, otherwise I'd be looking for the Playboy bunny on the spine of the book.

His prose is turgid and completely lacking in originality and evocativeness. Truly, how often does he have to repeat the phrase "motes of light" before it sticks in his memory? Didn't he have Roget's thesaurus at hand when scribing his missive?

And why, may I ask, does EVERY SINGLE FEMALE in his book have to be half-naked, naked, or naked and frolicking in the out of doors? His use of sex and sex scenes is totally unnecessary to the plot. Shandril Shessair certainly shares this exhibitionistic tendency, dropping her clothes at any given moment. I have no problem with sex or nudity in literature as long as they add, not detract from the plot. In this case they're just there obviously to give his 11yo target market wet dreams. :rolleyes: Then again, that's Ed's target market so I guess I shouldn't compare him to Tolstoy or anyone, eh.

Of course, these nubile, oversexed, uninhibited young temptresses all fall in love with Ed's alter ego Elminster, who happens to be 900+ years old. (Read the Temptation of Elminster - a book that has NO plot - but is good for a laugh and you will see what I mean. And while you're at it - look at the artwork of Elminster on the cover and then flip to the inner back cover of the book and check it against Ed's photo. Do you see a SIMILARITY??)

Too bad Ed didn't include pictures to go with his books...then they might actually be worth the money. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]

Then again, Ed's actually quite tame if you compare him to the GRANDdaddy of ubermunchkins, Gary Gygax. I read the last book of his Gord the Rogue series (some of you may remember the first couple of books, Saga of Old City and Artifact of Evil, which were passable but not literary gems by any means). The remaining five in the series were written by Gygax after he got the shaft from TSR, and this last one was called Dance of Demons.

Let me tell you...Gary Gygax definitely created the uber-munchkin concept. Elminster seriously looks like a shrimp compared to this guy. At this stage of the saga he's still human (somwhow), but he's got about a gazillion innate powers and godlike abilities. :eek:

In one sequence he kills about a thousand demons (I kid you NOT) by himself, while his partner (also human) kills another thousand. All this happens in one encounter. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

In another one he faces off with Nerull, also known as Infestix, also known as the supreme leader of the yugoloths (daemons), who is just about a diety, and kicks his ass. :eek: [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

Did I say that Gord, at this stage, is not even thirty years old? [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

I think Gary might have run out of ideas towards the end...the earlier books were better, and much more believable. This last one is just hilarious. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

Dance of Demons has to be the WORST book I've ever read - Gary must've gone completely dry on ideas and penned this for the money. No suspense, no twists, nothing but Super-Gord cutting a swathe through every single thing.

If I could compare Gord to a BG2 character, he would be similar to a character with 100% immunities to everything and with 25 stats in everything. He is now the Champion of Balance (Good and Evil are BOTH undesirable) and is IMPERVIOUS to defeat and demon lords like Graz'zt, Demogorgon, Mandrillagon and Orcus, as well as daemonkings like Anthraxus and Infestix, and the Dukes Infernal (Asmodeus and Co.) quail before his relentless onslaught.

Here are his (and Gellor's) powers at the start of Dance of Demons (the "ceremony" where the Heirophants, all the deities and demigods of Balance and Mordenkainen etc all "bestow" these gifts to make them innate abilities had me rolling on the floor in hysterics LOL!!). [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]

- can communicate by telepathy
- can move to any place with a thought
- can become mentally invisible (permanent mind shield)
- he wears shadow armor with zero encumbrance and AC -40
- also wears magic ring of 100% magic damage resistance and 100% physical damage resistance
- wears elven chain mail shirt giving 100% resistance to elements
- wears cats paws gloves, allowing wearer to fall any distance without injury, to deliver clawed blows (why bother when your sword does about 1000pts of damage anyway) and to climb like a cat
- wears girdle of planar shifting
- can transform into a massive panther at will
- regenerates about 20 hp per round (why bother when you are IMPERVIOUS to damage anyway)
- immunity to disease, poison, warding from foes, constant true sight
- PERMANENT 100% magic resistance
- he wields Courflamme, the Mighty Sword of Neutrality, which has the ability to kill thousands of demons with a thought

Here are some excerpts of one of his battles in the Abyss that will have you rolling on the floor. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

"Gord raised the diamond-bright part of Courflamme, auming at the demon's outthrust head. The sword's tip suddenly spat forth a black bolt of force. The crackling ebon dart sheared off the top of the fiend's head, and the impact of it actually flipped the demon's massive body over in a somersault.

Without pausing to view his work, Gord turned and faced his next foe, now aiming the long blade as if it were a wand. Again the inky core of the weapon sent forth a blast of dark power, and another of the charging demons died. It became almost mechanical thereafter: Gord pointed the blade, willed destruction, and again another monstrous beast crashed down dead. Again, again, yet again. Soon a half-circle of twitching demon corpses formed a barrier in front of him, a wall so great that the young champion could see nothing but its stinking height." [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

And if that's not enough for you, Gellor, his sidekick, has certainly grown from being that raspcallion guardian of Gord's from the first couple of books. Here's an example of what he's like in combat with demons:

"Gellor brought forth his ivory kanteel, adjusted one of the golden pegs, and gently stroked the silver strings of the little harp. A ripple of beautiful notes washed outward, and the demon-beasts reacted as if they had been struck by a tidal wave.

When the sounds from the enchanted strings of the instrument struck, fully a dozen of the massive monsters were bowled over, while a half-hundred of the lesser scavengers were blown away, some actually torn to pieces in the process." [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

And here's a final excerpt to blow you away (literally):

"Side by side, the two heroes strode across the endless leagues of the foul layer that was the entry to the Abyss. In a short time, thanks to their innate force, they came to the towering bluffs that housed the gateways to the next twenty tiers of the agglomeration of planes that formed the depth of evil called demonrealm, the Abyss. A few hundred lesser demons were there to contest their entry, prevent them from going on, but those malign guards died in vain, swiftly and without great effort from the pair. A clear and bright melody from the kanteel, some dark and deadly lightnings from the rejoined sword, Courflamme, and none stood to oppose them." [img]graemlins/crazyeyes.gif[/img]

Ferkin' hysterical. I might use it if I run out of toilet paper. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/evilhaha.gif[/img]

I found this in Terry Pratchet’s “a light fantastic” I found it entirely suitable for any debate involving Ed “Uber” Greenwood.



“…this particular hero was a heroine. A redheaded one.

“Now, there is a tendency at a point like this to look over one’s shoulder at the cover artist and start going on at length about leather, thighboots and naked blades.

“Words like “full,” “round,” and even “pert” creep into the narrative, until the writer has to go and have a cold shower and a lie down. Which is all rather silly, because any woman setting out to make a living by the sword isn’t about to go around looking like something off the cover of the more advanced kind of lingerie catalogue for the specialized buyer.”



I think greenwood could learn A LOT from this passage.

[ 12-14-2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

I actually liked that Gord series Mem. Gord wasn't uber powerful thru the whole series. He was only beefed up for the last book. If you remember, he wasnt buffed up to destroy the demonlords themselves (they weren't a match for him), he was buffed up to destroy a being way more powerful than they were. He and Gellor were given items even gods prized (all the greater powers of Neutrality contributed powerful items to help him), and if you remember when he finally faced Tharizdun(while the demons could hurt Gord a little, they couldn't scratch this guy), he was still lacking. Yes he could kill demons by the thousands (they are countless however), but the demons themselves had items that could kill or incapacitate thousands of their own kind.

BTW Gord died several times thru the books (he carried a necklace that awarded him nine lives, which he recieved from the catlord). You also mentioned him going against Nerull and Infestix. That was in the last book when he was granted power to face them. He actually died once just by seeing Nerull when the god was on Oerth leading forces to war.

By the last book, Gord was for the most part a God himself. He was destined to be the Champion of Balance,(a force that was destined to battle the Greatest Evil, Tharizdun).

Um, Mems, actually the Spellfire group is a trilogy! I haven't read the third yet, but picked up the first a month and a half or so ago just because of the "Forgotten Realms" tag. It was so awful (agree with the unnecessarily and frequently nude Sharil/whatever-her-name-is point) that I had to get the second to see if it measured up. It *was* slightly better. But I became so impatient over her whining and carrying on over her unwanted power that I tossed them both on the shelf! ::sigh:: It was just so...simple and unrealistic!

But now I'm going through the Greyhawk series...simple but interesting enough. Ya just gotta love Cinders the sentient hellhound and Escalla the faeirie (her attitude! [img]smile.gif[/img] )

<font color="#ff00cc">Geee now I feel all simple and unrealistic :( I likesd the series, especially the new revised edition that they published this year. :D </font>

That's ok,Magik man. We still love you!

I didn't say I loathed the series...it definitely had entertainment value if for no other reason than to point out how much more entertaining other books were :D .