Has anyone else noticed that WOTC seem to be charging an inordinate amount of money for their books? I saw Sea of Swords (?) by R.A.Salvatore in small hardback for £18.99 in Otikas. It's the first time in a long time that I've not bought a book that I wanted due to the price.

They aren't the people who bought T$R for nothing ;)

WoTc has been going downhill for the last coupla years now... After they cornered the market on the collectable card game, they started to diversify and started to piss people off...

Too many Magic cards being released... Too many rule changes being released... Then they started screwing with D&D... Again, rule changes, hence 3rd edition... Discontinuing older module series... Getting snotty with CRPG developers about what they can and can not publish using the D&D rules...

Now it is all about the books and stories behind all of the games they have... Money talks, and WoTC likes money... The more the better...

Hell, that is one of the reasons it took NWN so long to be released.. The fighting between BioWare, Interplay, and WoTC...

Interplay no longer developes D&D games... D20 games are going to be the norm for CRPG's...

Too bad... Gotta live with it... Not!

Yes, WoTC is truly heading downhill. Prices for D&D books and supplementals are rising, the selling off of D&D Campaign settings like Ravenloft, Dragonlance and L5R to other companies. Wizards has also sold off all their D&D periodicals as well (Star Wars Gamer etc). If I'm not wrong when Hasbro bought over WoTC a year ago, they appointed some suit as WotC's new boss, unfortunately he was later discovered to have embezzled a considerable amount of money from Wizards. Add to the fact that alot of staff who had contributed significantly to Wiazrd over the years had retired, resigned or even worse, been told that 'their services were no longer required'. Well in short, Wizards are screwed.

[ 07-16-2002, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Rimjaw ]

They deserve being screwed for making 3rd edition D&D. And D20 as the norm for all CRPG's from now on? Yeah, right. Like that's ever going to happen.

Systems like Morrowind's and Wizardry's are FAR superior. And the developers know that. So they won't all go D20.

I've been playing Magic since about '93 (The Legends Extension) it started to go downhill after the Ice Age extension '95,... the extension were either rubbish (homelands...) or way to unbalancing (Urza's Saga,...). Basically just cash cows.

For the defense of WOTC I must say I find 3rd edition D&D far superior to AD&D (remember the Thac0, the negative AC,...) but I still prefer Earthdawn, Shadowrun and Rolemaster (used in Camelot) systems. The D20 is too overhyped.

yes WOTC is declining.... steadily...

hopefully you'll find the book you wanted at the online auctions

I do think whitewolf can do better at making ravenloft more of a horror/fantasy setting, but WotC made them kill the continuity with exsisting d&d worlds, forcing name/background changes for most of the darklords. I haven't bought anything new WotC has put out (aside from some forgotten realms books) since 3rd edition came out, I do however buy older out of print 2nd edition gaming supplies when I can find them (assuming I don't already have them) I played magic for a long time, but stopped collecting when weatherlights came out, too uber for me, and when all the ruleschanges came out every few weeks, I got disgusted and put my collection in storage. I play Bloodwars(a planescape based CCG, made by TSR before they were bought out) or (Werewolf) Rage now.

Really WOTC rise the pirces of the products very much because they know that we will buy them even though the prices are very high. For example, Faiths and Pantheons for the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was very expensive (33 dollars I think) but I bought it because I love the faiths of Faerun and I wanted extra information on them. You see, WOTC will always rise the prices because they know that we will always love reading Salvatore's, Greenwood's amn others books.

And thats when you realise that in order to translate the stats of the various Gods you will also need to buy WotC's Deities ans Demigods rulebook, which sets you back another $40+. Wizards sure knows how to milk us customers to the last drop.

[ 07-22-2002, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Rimjaw ]

Or we could just stick with 2nd edition that most of those of us who play PnP already have the rulebooks for.... Saves cash.

And for $5 bucks a download you can get pdf versions of most 2nd edition books from wotc. The cost in printer ink/paper plus the five bucks is worth it to me as I still play 2nd edition myself.

And for $5 bucks a download you can get pdf versions of most 2nd edition books from wotc. The cost in printer ink/paper plus the five bucks is worth it to me as I still play 2nd edition myself.</font>[/QUOTE]Same here. I own the PHB, DMG and MM. But I bought a superb character/dungeon/NPC/Monster creator which has all of the Player's Option, the DM's Option and a few other books in it in Word format. Not that best possible, but it beats having to buy them [img]tongue.gif[/img] And I could print them if I wanted to.

Are you refering to the core rules cd-rom? I love that!!!!! Its made my dming way more effiecient. Good stuff!!!

My players all take turns at the end of a session to update and print their characters, they enjoy the ease of use and I always have a copy of the characters handy to plan ahead.

Are you refering to the core rules cd-rom? I love that!!!!! Its made my dming way more efficient. Good stuff!!!

My players all take turns at the end of a session to update and print their characters, they enjoy the ease of use and I always have a copy of the characters handy to plan ahead.</font>[/QUOTE]Yep, that's it exactly [img]smile.gif[/img] Grand stuff, saves so much time when making characters and so on. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You can also just fire up Kazaa and do a search on d20, 3e or dnd... then its printer time [img]smile.gif[/img]

Are you refering to the core rules cd-rom? I love that!!!!! Its made my dming way more efficient. Good stuff!!!

My players all take turns at the end of a session to update and print their characters, they enjoy the ease of use and I always have a copy of the characters handy to plan ahead.</font>[/QUOTE]Yep, that's it exactly [img]smile.gif[/img] Grand stuff, saves so much time when making characters and so on. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]the only problem is the time it takes to make custom items, and then trying to affix a pic to it, but it's only a minor problem, anyone else disgusted at the wizard/priest spell compendiums which were released just a month or two before 3ED made everything in it obsolete?

I am a collector kind of guy, so I was collecting all the 2nd Edition books. I was getting close to having ALL of them, then 3rd edition came out. Now I have to start all over.

Or just stick with 2nd edition [img]tongue.gif[/img] Just because they make a new edition it doesn't mean that you MUST play it [img]tongue.gif[/img]

exactly, there are some crusty old guys who still only play 1st edition and as long as you're comfortable with the rules then play what u enjoy.

bumping so that everyone can read a very good discussion of how corporate greed is killing d&d

Thanks for the bump, I probably wouldn't have read it otherwise.

First of all, it is scary when 90% of the gaming industry (from RPGs to CCGs to Monopoly to Candyland) is controlled by one company. Why isn't the Justice Dept investigating Hasbro? Next thing you know they will buy Cheap Ass Games. (If you aren't familiar with CAG, check them out. They make good games and only supply rules and a paper game board if needed. You are expected to pilfer dice, money, and tokens from other games you have if they are needed. Net result is a solid game for around US$5.)

Second of all, I like 3rd edition and the D20 system, but I agree that not every RPG should have the same system, as the goals of the game is different. (Paranoia is different from Champions is different from D&D). I recently moved to Pennsylvania from Texas. In Texas, I played with two groups of people. The first group played a system of the GM's creation that started out loosely based on the Hero system and is now completely different. The other group started playing just before 3rd ed. came out and since none of us had many of the old books, we made the transistion to 3ed when it came out. I played with a group here in Penn for a while that played 2nd ed because they all had invested $1000's in books and computer programs for it, so there was no way they were going to update to 3rd ed. Bottom line, if a system works for you, play it. The most important thing is that you have fun, be it by hacking and slashing through a dungeon or by getting inside your characters head. The second most important thing is that you are not forced into bankruptcy trying to get all the materials you need for the game, which brings me to....

Third of all: Costs for games are getting exhorbitant. I stopped playing Magic:TG long ago because I didn't want to keep buying cards. My friends (back in Texas) and I would buy less popular (but still good) card games like Illuminati: New World Order and NetRunner and play those. Compared to Magic, these games were as cheap as paper. We also played a lot of the Cheap Ass Games mentioned above. I would like to buy the 3rd ed. books (and to be honest I could afford to if I didn't spend so much on cpu games) but the prospect of having to buy, at the bare minimum, 3 books is not something I like. Those three books (PHB, DMG and MM) aren't really enough if you want access to more spells, creatures, other planes, deities etc. Pretty soon an investment of $60-$70 has ballooned to $500.

And what is up with the 3rd ed MM. Great artwork, but the layout is about a bad as you can get. Anyway, gotta go.

where are you at in PA? my gamig group includes me, my wife, and 3 friends, and we're always looking for new gamers, if you live in the carlisle/harrisburg area we might be able to hook something up...

Thanks for the invite. I'm in Williamsport, so it's probably a little too far for me to drive on a regular basis. How often to you play? What do you play? How long have you been gaming together?

Part of the reason I'm no longer playing with the guys here in Williamsport is that they have all been playing together for a long time. They each have several characters anywhere from 10th to 25th level and it was hard for me to get into a character that started out at 15th level. What did this guy do for the last 10 years to get to where he's at? How did he come across this Cloak of Arachnida and TK ring? It was frustrating not knowing who my character was while all the other characters had this rich history together.

I like the 3rd Edition rules more than the 2nd. The only thing I miss about 2nd edition was that most rulebook where contradicting themselves in some ways, orhad alternate rules,... since I had lot of knowledge about all those books, I was able to play wit the rules as I wanted.

I am usually the DM, but once, I was a player, and just for the fun of it, I used the rules to my advantages, so that I could start with a number of magic items to my choosing. Using all my knowledge, I was able to make it so that no NPC ever where able to even attack my character.

I know, it was not very fair, but the guy was a very HARSH and pushy Dm, he killed PCs a lot, and even removed xp to players who where not in characters, so I gave him a good lesson. ;)

Lets just hope 3rd edition rules never become as "strange" as the 2nd edition where, or I might have some more lessons to teach to a few pretentious DM. ;)

yeah probably not, but we usually play together on friday nights, I've been gaming here since 2000, but the campaign I'm running is winding down, and then I'm going to be handing over the reigns to my friend mike to DM, he typically runs planescape, or an alternate campaign when I'm unable to DM, and it's mostly hack and slash (we're playing second edition, Dark Sun right now, but that campaign will end in a week or two, as soon as the party finishes the adventure), and they're starting to get a bit of overconfidence (they're around 9-12 lvl and have some ok magic items (like my wife has a magic sword that causes a wild surge whenever it hits- either from the Tome of magic wild mage charts, or from the wand of wonder random chart, depending on what kind of mood I'm in, at one point she summoned a fire elemental, and fell in love with it (through wild surges) right before killing it, so she got some very evil madness checks, and mental instabilities resulting from it.

As far as rules lawyering goes, ok I'm guilty of some, but most of the rules in 2nd edition are optional, and if the DM decides not to invoke it (not determined on a case by case basis, but when the rulebook is introduced) then teh rule is not valid.

That guy was a sucky DM. The DM controls the rules. You wanted to do something and he didn't think it should be allowed. He could say that you couldn't do it.

Quote:

I know, it was not very fair, but the guy was a very HARSH and pushy Dm, he killed PCs a lot, and even removed xp to players who where not in characters, so I gave him a good lesson. ;)

No you didn't. If someone went too far out of character I'd give them an XP penalty too, if the players died a lot it was most likely because they were stupid. I'd say that you're the one who needs a lesson, not him.

[ 08-31-2002, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Neb ]

That guy was a sucky DM. The DM controls the rules. You wanted to do something and he didn't think it should be allowed. He could say that you couldn't do it.

Quote:

I know, it was not very fair, but the guy was a very HARSH and pushy Dm, he killed PCs a lot, and even removed xp to players who where not in characters, so I gave him a good lesson. ;)

No you didn't. If someone went too far out of character I'd give them an XP penalty too, if the players died a lot it was most likely because they were stupid. I'd say that you're the one who needs a lesson, not him.</font>[/QUOTE]Relax, don't get a heart attack. I was playing a joke on a friend, not being mean to a total stranger.

And he WAS a harsh DM. He would remove xp if you didn't do what he wanted. Once, he removed 10k xp from a player because he wanted to go right, and the Dm wanted us to go left. I never said the PCs died either, I said he killed them. There is a big difference. If he became mad at you for a reason, he would have a wall fall on you, or other instant death things like that. But he was one of our friends, and a long time player in our group, so we accepted his DMing style, since it was his turn to be the DM.

Also, at the time, we had a level 20 or so half orc NPC with us for a hard part of the dungeon, but he forgot the NPC was there, so after a few bloody battles, I teasingly told him: "Well... look like your half-orc is becoming lazy! We didn't see him since the entrance of the dungeon!"

And he replied "Oh yeah! Do you want him to attack you? Lets se how lazy he is!"

He agreed to the rules I was using before we started the campain. I didn't do anything "illegal" or overpowering, I just played the character and my kit very well. What is wrong with using to their full potential the magic items the DM give you? Or waiting for the other PC's to go first in a hallway you strongly suspect to be traped?

He was the kind of DM who abused the rules to his advantage, I just showed him it didn't work on me.

I really liked his campain. It's a shame we never finished it. I had to miss a playing session, so he killed my character, and the other players got tired, so we started a new campain.

[ 09-01-2002, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]