(Y'all take your bad-arse nasty looking armors waaaaay too seriously sometimes, you know. Need to lighten up a bit.)

There are a few nice armors for the more fashion conscious adventurer, thanks to the Mighty Z - and, I suspect, Choc's Most Important input. And I realize that certain adjustments can be made with a high enough crafting skill. But why must the most fun armor be some of the weakest (with the exception of the Drow priestess pasties)?

I think the addition of the fuzzy pink bunny slippers with steel bottoms that Moz so helpfully (and teasingly) suggested is a step in the right direction :D .

More seriously, is there any way that the heavier armors could be a little less..........clunky for the ladies?

You can turn them into robes, such as wizard's robes, casual robes, etc. Also, the seemingly making a comeback Alienist robe is available in the craft menu.

Perhaps Z could put some Gucci or Prada labels on selected armour, though I guess there might be some copyright problems there.

I suppose we'll just have to fall back on crafting and the dyes from the obliging merchant at the Inn.

I haven't seen any pink fluffy bunny slippers of doom yet but who knows what nightmares Halaster has in store for us.

I've made way too many weapons. *sighs*

In any case, the only thing I can say is to wait for the new stores to open up. For all I know, Ziroc might be opening up a few which will be solely for the adventurer of the feminine persuasion. I have submitted at least six female-inclined armors, four different versions of the chain mail bikini, and at very least another ten gowns. I've no idea what Ziroc had in store before I sent them. I've no idea what Ziroc has in mind since I have sent them. All I know is that there should be a few more (if not quite a few more) on the way.

The crafting is only really useful on armors without robes on them already. Most of the truly feminine armor types are easy enough to design within the toolset, but the moment you try to muck with them using in-game crafting? Ugh, it's a mess. I do have at least one character who can use crafting in-game to alter your merchandise, but there's only so far her skills and the game engine will let me go. It won't give me any of the customized gowns that some of the other armors in game currently use. It is just the way the engine is programmed. And it would take far too long in my opinion to rewire that bit of crafting goodness. So we wait patiently (or worriedly in my case) for the new locations to open their doors. After all, I'm sure that Elaith there should have some fine gowns for your dames to dress up with...

I agree with garnet that we dont need stronger/better/bigger armour but maybe the same stat armour in many diffrent styles.

*enters wellards usual request for diffrent looking headgear* not everyone wants a ugly head just to use true seeing :D

Also I seem to remember RTB asking for a ring of crafting which is a very good idea. Available on level 8 or some obscure part of level 9 or 6 is also good! [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

Ring Of Crafting was already sent in, and requested, and begged for, and pleaded for... Trust me, I've done what I can about that one. That's been almost as big for me as henchmen, dragons, and new stores. (Yes, it has been that large of an issue for me.) They'd be great so we didn't need to devote points to crafting armor and weapons in order to get the looks we wanted. Ziroc has said he understands the rationale behind that and is looking into it.

Sent in new headgear some time ago, so hopefully there'll be a few new helmets that will suit the looks you are going for. Helmets aren't all that common, even on the NWVault. (I looked. Repeatedly. And Recently.) I did attempt a "good looking" circlet of true seeing, but I've no idea if it'll make an appearance. I think it would be to your liking, however.

Same old armor, brand new looks? Well, technically I could do "feminine versions" of some of the more popular armors, but I would need to have a request list for the armors that people wanted in "female friendly format." Aside from Aribeth's Armor, there's not much that is primarily for women I have to admit. So if you had a list of the armor (with the statistics preferably) you'd want to see duplicated, I am willing to do those up and ship them off to Ziroc. I make no guarantees that you'll like the looks I come up with, however.

Yup! I think one of my characters has the Bumbis(or somesuch) golden armor as a robe. Looks rather fetching, thanks to my hubby's dwarf and his crafting skills! :D

dunno about that alienist one though... somehow it's just not what you'd expect in the Waterdeep fashion magazines this year, but maybe it's all the rage in Neverwinter? [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

ROTFL! Halaster's own line may be ...uh... interesting, to say the least! Hmm... Maybe a few Devils in Prada? [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

This seems kind of frustrating to me: "I want to be able to do <insert skill here> w/out dedicating any skill points to it."

To me, that reads exactly the same as "I want to be able to use dev crit w/out taking the feats for it."

Crafting is no different than picking locks, if you want to be able to do it, dedicate some points to it. I have several very playable chars with enough crafting skills to do what can be done on the server, with weapons, or armor. Some of this stuff has to be put on the actual build. All this asking for something for nothing is really frustrating for me.

Sorry, this is probably one of the few times I actually do want "something for nothing." Problem is for me is that with the crafting characters I have, I can't do a blasted thing solo lower than say Level Ten. After that, either I have a party with me (which isn't always possible depending on time of day) or I have to use a different character. Sure, some people would say "suffer," but I don't believe in that. Not for something as simple as wanting a different look for my character. If I have to live without said crafting rings, I will. My issue is mainly convenience vs. accuracy.

In other servers there are places you can get equipment modified to match what you want for your character, but not here. Why? Scripting. There's no way I'd ask Ziroc to put something like that in just because I don't like the way my armor looks. He's busy putting an entire world together. Putting something liek that in takes time away from major issues like new levels, new quests, and new challenges for the players. (I'd rather not think of the scripting involved - I want to be able to sleep tonight.) As stated before, I have character who CAN and DO alter items with competancy, but trying to transfer items between characters just to make them look better is risky at best, and at worst impossible on a completely empty server. (You then have to wait in order for a time when a lot of people are on to move the altered items back and forth between characters.)

As well, it's not as if it's entirely free, either, to get items remodeled. Everything comes with a price. In this case, it's both in crafting points AND gold. Every adjustment, no matter how minor, comes out of your pocketbook. By no means am I asking that to be changed. I just want to be able to alter my own items without having to sacrifice playability in the lower levels. Maybe I am asking for too much? Maybe not. Only time will tell. Since actual "Crafting" crafting is not on this server (for numerous reasons and it's not really needed here anyway), I didn't think this concept being overly greedy. Now if we could truly make our own items much like on the server you help run, I wouldn't even bother to suggest this. That would be far too unbalanced and I would be in error even considering it. I just want to have my Legend Of The Five Rings character actually have jian, pu dao, and naginata in his armory rather than longswords, halberds, and scythes - which is precisely what they are.

Gotta say I find myself agreeing with this. It's part of the whole gameplay experience. If you want to craft, you take skill points in it because your character has to learn the skill! Can't learn to make an omelet without learning how to crack an egg! [img]smile.gif[/img] My characters haven't done this, but my husband has one that does. He enjoys doing the crafting and finding the raw materials to make things or transform things.

Yes, crafting costs money. In Fates, it also costs XP. Guess what. All the characters that want the stuff that can be crafted there spend the points in the skills, weapons/armor, and the gold and XP to do it. Do they complain, every minute of every crafting operation they perform. Do they do it anyway, yeah, and with multiple chars. We have crafter rings to, a max of +5, at least, that's the max players can get.

I don't understand how putting a total of 25 points in crafting armor or weapons, as that's about all it really takes, affects your chars playability. Ashina, the "Supermodel" I used for the original crafter thread, is quite playable solo, to lvl 13 anyway. I haven't gotten around to putting her to the test on 14 yet. Daughter of Winter, my crafting cleric is also very playable with the skill points dumped into crafting. Off the top of my head, the only class that doesn't have crafting as a class skill is weapon master. *Shrug* To each their own, I suppose. I'll ride the bus with the party for all the free XP, but I'll also be the one doing the quests, when I can get down to them, so I don't feel bad about that at all. I'll also put points in crafting if I feel the need to craft my armor, after all, if I want it, I should be able to do the work for it.

Not really trying to take a real hard line on this, it's just the way I see it. On Fates, we had the ocasional beggar, who would want somebody else to spend the XP and gold to craft their items for them. It's frustrating to be busily gathering components for the crafting, which are required to add stuff to the armor/weapons, and have somebody else that's too lazy begging you to do it for them. Maybe that's why I think chars should have to "earn" what they get when it comes to crafting.

One of the main differences between here and say Fates is that Fates is a persistent world. It has an economy in place that such works are necessary AND profitable. Here it isn't. I have no qualms with crafting costing money and XP. My problem is, as always, convenience. I don't feel that for cosmetic differences only I should have to put in points to a skill that I'll never be able to use in a combat situation. Of course, this is coming from the person who has yet to use Parry in a combat situation, though I have it on half of my combat characters. *shrugs a bit* Inside of a world like Fates, I'd be more than happy to earn the money and get the materials needed in order to have someone else make it for me. Sure, they might charge me more than it would cost to make it myself, but it's only fair to them as they'd be losing XP in order to make it. (Though I have seen on various servers XP was gained for successfully crafting items. It wouldn't work here, as those systems were set up for slower gains in levels and not as heavily combat-oriented.)


My main arguement against this is "where else do I lose?" If I place points in crafting, those are saving throws I could be bolstering (Spellcraft), doddges I could be making (Tumble), or people I could be convincing (Persuade, Intimidation). Save magical items which may or may not turn up to boost those skills, I need to place those in my build in order to survive certain things. That, or I give up on going to various regions with that character (solo, at least) as they won't be as effective. Currently I don't wish to do that. Mayhaps if and when more regions appear, it won't seem to me like such a sacrifice.


Well, I've seen the "earn what you have" arguement in terms of hair extensions and other... modifications. (No details. PG thread here.) If I've made the money, then I've earned it. On Fates, I would personally smack the people who were saying "oh could you do this for me and I give you nothing back for it." To heck with that! That's serious time and money invested in order to get that far. Here it's somewhat different. It's why I would love something that just gave me the power to "go to the mall" and get what I want in the look I wanted.

Think of it like this. If you and I go to a store and get the exact same shoe in the exact same size, we should pay the exact same price. If I want that same shoe in wingtip, and I have the money, I an go to a cobbler and get it altered. I have to pay more, but that's because I want the alterations. I don't need to learn a new trade AND pay more in order to get the alterations done. Now, given the "costs money and costs XP" statement earlier, I wouldn't mind a place that would do it for you at a marked up fee. Why not? I didn't learn the trade myself, so I pay more to have it done for me. I personally would think that would be a fair trade off, except of the work that Ziroc would have to put in.

So right now these are the "options" when it comes to armors with different looks but the exact same properties:

1) Ziroc does nothing and we go on as it is. (Easiest for Ziroc.) We argue the semantics about it all, but we still use the system as it stands now and make characters in droves accordingly.

2) Ziroc includes crafters' rings in the module. (Easiest technically for those who wish to make new looks.) One person has suggested to make them a prize. I like the idea of purchasing them. Could be 1 Mil gold. Could be 4 Mil gold. Could be 1 Mil gold per point in Crafting bonus. They'd sell. And most players would find it worth the cost.

3) Ziroc includes one of those alteration stores in the module somewhere. (Boo. Hiss.) Tons of scripting to look through. Not really worth his time for an option not everyone would use to begin with.

4) Ziroc uses some of those Live Forges to make places where characters get a bonus to their scripting rolls (+15 would be nice) and it costs more (30% to 3x more) to do your remodelling of your items. This would make characters still need to put points into crafting, but you wouldn't need to place as many. This option would also entice people to pick up after themselves and sell it to whichever store they came across. Gerfuril's and perhaps Herthstone's would be the best places to start that project.

Ok, guys. [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] All I meant to do was suggest a few alternate sets of armor that would be less "manly" and less resemble a human- (or dwarf-, elf-, etc.) shaped tin can!

It seems to me that a crafting ring that gives a bonus to (Craft Armor) would work. Why not? We have them to help us (Disable Traps), (Search), (Lore), etc. Why not for crafting as well? I'm not suggesting a ring with +25 to (Craft Armor), after all. To create such an item would be the least amount of work short of doing nothing at all for Z.

The other alternative mentioned was a Tailor Shop. I'm a rank amateur at coding, so I'm not sure *exactly* how much work that would be. Maybe Z would find it amusing to create. <shrugs> Heck, maybe the Almighty Choc could be the fashion consultant!

But in the end, even with all the arguing about why - or why not - this should be adjusted, it all comes down to a simple idea of not looking like a freakin' tin can!

[img]smile.gif[/img] This is an old debate on many NWN sites. Mainly folks with opposing views on the whole idea of 'something for nothing' or crafting versus other uses for skill points.

I tend to fall on the 'if you want it, spend the points' side of the issue, like RTB, kind of on the assumption that if I were actually learning the skills, I'd have to take the time from other things anyway. I guess it's because I like to have at least a modicum of 'what if I were this char?' in my play, even when not fully (or even halfly...is that a word? LOL) roleplaying it out.

I dunno, maybe I'm just used to the way the various armors look, didn't even think of the crafting til Nacht asked if he could experiment on one of my char's armor and made the robe from armor I had. Then I look at some of the things out there and I wonder how much different can it look and still function.. I mean I figure if it's too teeny, cute or 'feminine', how much protection could it have unless it's magical? So I've been contenting myself with changing colors or such.

Not that I'd mind seeing different styles of armor/helmets etc! Just hadn't thought about it much! :D Bring 'em on! [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] But I dunno about chainmail bikinis... they aren't comfortable at all! LOL! ;)


PS, I'm not entirely sure, but I THINK the whole scripting issues and the accompanying work/headaches that Moz mentions are why there is no shop to do the work of crafting for us.

[ 01-15-2007, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

@G You wear your tin can, and like it... :insertmeansmiley here:

The fact is, in order to get the results that Moz is looking for, a + 20 ring or so is exactly what is required. As for making a ring with a crafting bonus, there is no scripting required. You make a ring, and add Skill Bonus; Craft Armor, or Skill Bonus Craft Weapon. No scripting required. You can add both. Garnet, you have been to Fates, and if you'll remember, there are three crafting rings that can be purchased. One is +3, +4, and +5. You have to find them, but someone in game would be glad to tell you where they are, when the server was way populated.

Most of my girls (and guys) have at least a couple points in craftng armor. BUT a ring or reasonable alternative would be nice for the times when they fail the check by a mere 2 or 3 points. That's all.

And whilst I'm thinking of armor, why does bright pink dye on metal armor (base silver when using 'bleach') come out lavender colored? It upset poor Teddi something fierce when she was trying to match the neon pink hood she'd donned and the pretty chainmail (I think it was) came out purple! (And yes, I was using metal dye [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

Colors can show up differently with our pc's and video cards. But now that you mention it, the pink sometimes does look slightly purple on mine- dunno, but I like purple, so it's all good! LOL

I would like to back up Garnets point here. We have many magic rings or such in the game that give boosts to skills. A ring of +15 to armour or weapon crafting is not an outragous request. To make things better / reward hard work is to make the ring only available at say the level 8 shop. If the ring was made to disapear on transit (like the helball wand) would that really hurt the game? :D

Though many times i build a character for outright stats I often like to create a more intresting character and being able to change the look to match his/ her avatar is important to that build. Of course when he reaches level 40 he may have enough points to craft but by then the character is finished and it's time to build a new one.

The game is about fun, people amuse themselves by creating not just characters but clothes too [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Yeah, I guess it's the difference between "Look what I made", and "Look what this ring made". Personally, I logged one of the girls last night that was the start of the "Crafting Craze" in Undermountain, took her to level 14, and beat up the door guard, and the first wave, all so I could get one belt. She didn't even go after a stone, which was stupid...The point being, she crafted her own armor, w/out rings, and is still very functional. She wanted more feminine armor, so she took the time to learn the skill and did it.

ring plus ten is now available (not telling where)

Though if Ziroc catches anyone crafting pink bunny slippers of death then I hope he turns there character into a toad [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

*sigh* Fade Aloway and Sister Bubbles may have to become my seamstresss. Funny enough, Pish Onyu has nearly the highest amount of crafting ability of anyone on my two logins - and she's none too bright. I'm afraid if Teddi became a crafter, those slippers would more closely resemble the vorpal bunny from Monty Python <wicked grin>.

Just goes to show that fashion sense doesn't necessarily take smarts ;) .

I have at least one crafter, Garnet, and I WILL be asking RTB how to make a successful adventuring tailor to go along with that. More than likely it'd be another rogue, as the regular (not CEP) crafting skills require Intelligence as your base statistic, not Strength. So worry not, I'll be able to remake your weapons into nicer looking tools of destruction. *Grins* In fact, I may need to do a run into the Trollbark Forest in order to get the money to rework some more weapons on my characters today...

If you don't tell me, Wellard, I WILL wedgie you.
*gets out the Wedgie Gauntlets Of Disaster +10, safely kept in storage along with the NoogieFists Of Doom(tm)...*

Expect to see the 'greater' version of that crafting ring on level 15. Just wanted to give you all a tease.... :D :D

Was Mozen's idea for the ring, and a good one too. Spend those points in something more useful. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hey Moz---you have to go thru hordes of those winged dragon clerics/priestesses/rangers/guards and THEN the High Wiz Mucky Muck himself to get to the ring........OR you could, I suppose, have a high enough sneak skill to tip-toe around them all ;) .

Pish now has the ring --- and a couple other goodes Z tucked into that chest.

Now I need to find the [set] thread(s) and figure out how many pieces there are to.....

A really good clue has been posted already, in one or another thread. One needs only to seek to find.