Posting here because I think the forums are being combined?...

If you haven't got SoU or HotU and don't want to hear about some of the new classes available, then don't read on.
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I'm casting around for an arcane character to develope and am undecided so far.

I did create a gnome illusionist last night, as I've never played as one of the small folk before, but not sure whether I want to take this character far or not.

I was wondering about a human wizard specialising in necromancy, but am unsure how this works. I realise you cannot cast spells from the opposition school, but do you gain an extra spell slot per level in your chosen school as in BG2? The manual doesn't seem to make this too clear.

Also, the scope for development of a necromancer character seems quite small, because the Pale Master (whilst being a very cool class) seems to sacrifice casting ability for melee. However, I'm not really interested in melee ability - the character would be very much focused on magic and he would see gaining melee abilities as a pointless distraction from his work.

So, your thoughts? Is choosing a necromancer without planning to continue to a pale master pretty pointless except for roleplaying reasons? Are there any wizard characters that you've found enjoyable to play that you can recommend?

Thanks in advance [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-12-2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

<font color=skyblue>I once had a red dragon diciple that I made pure magic-using, and he was specialized in fire-based spells. He made it well on his own for a few levels, but when I got to the double-digit levels I couldn't cut it anymore. </font>

I have a 20sorcerer/20red dragon disciple. Its fun but is mostly for extra melee as you get more hp's and some great strength bonuses.

If you are willing to spend the points needed, I would go with wizard/cleric or wizard/druid. Some great spell combo's in those two mixes.

As far as pure casting, wizard/pale master is good because you can still advance spellwise as a palemaster. Understand however that you will get your butt handed to you in later stages of the game as a pure caster if you don't take a tank henchman and have a good pet too. Its also good to take a level of rogue late in the levels to put a bunch of points into tumble for added AC.

I think its one extra spell to cast per spell level per day for the specialist.

The Necromancer gives up Divination spells (i.e. like TrueStrike, See Invisibility, Premonition, True Seeing, etc.)

http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwint...elone.php#null

The nice thing here is that these are not offensive spells so they don't need to be cast many times during battle (nor are they dependent on caster level for effectiveness). This allows the use of the spells via an item with the spell or a spell scroll. In otherwords a true seeing spell is better utilized via an item that can cast once per day (or similarly).

If used properly the wizard/sorcerer can be the MOST powerful class - period! The Palemaster levels are simply a bonus to your Wizard class AND it really isn't a melee class. The AC increases are nice an add to your mage armor or epic mage armor. The immunity to criticals makes you immune to criticals AND backstabs - which is VERY important for a spell caster. There is NO detriment to being a Palemaster.. Past level 20 your spell casting DC checks do NOT improve, and additionally the Palemaster suffers NO "spell per day reduction": Every 2 levels, the pale master gains additional spells per day, as if they had leveled in their previous spell caster class. This gain only applies to spells per day and not caster level.

Make sure however, that beyond level 20 you start to intermix additional Wizard levels to coincide with epic feats (epic spell) selection so that you can get those cool spells at the right time by spending as few additional levels as a Wizard as possible (the key here is your spellcraft skill). Notice that epic feat selection "Epic Warding" (the best defensive spell) is not available untill your character has 34 in spell craft - which isn't possible until at least character level 31. From there you'll want to coincide that skill increase with a character feat selection. Use an Epic Leveler mod to play with the character creation so that you get this right (along with the epic spells you want).

Things you need to do to make the Class combination the most powerfull:
1. Select your Wizard levels above level 20 carefully for the epic spells you want.
2. Choose spells that are offensive (both of the Issacs Missle Storms are AWESOME).
3. Choose spells that have no save and if possible no spell resistance. In particular Element Shield and Melstith's Acid Sheath - which work nicely with Greater Stoneskin (but not premonition.. which is OK because as a Necromancer you can't cast it anyway).
4. Make sure you keep adding to your Intelligence because it effects your spell penetration vs. an opponents spell resistance. (by level 40 you should be at least 26 in intelligence.)
5. Add at least one level of Shadow Dancer to get the "hide in plain sight" feature and have VERY high Hide and Move silently skills by getting the minimum level required for the class and saving up a LOT of points to plow into these skills when you do choose this class. In particular this will allow you to get close to an opponent for your death touch OR Vampiric touch. The nice thing here is that Vampiric touch scales with your levels without topping-out.

If you want a uber level 40 spell caster try a 38 sorc/1 paladin/1 monk.

Works well for me in undermountain. She also specilised in Necromancy to give wail of the banshee a BIG kick.

Thank-you everyone for your input - it's been very helpful. After some playing around in a leveller for a bit I'm becoming quite excited about this character - think he could end up being a great roleplaying character who is quite rich in detail. [img]smile.gif[/img]


I'm was wrestling whether to include the Shadow Dancer levels because it does exploit the engine a bit for a more powerful character, but then I was thinking that this creation will be steeped in the dark arts - vanishing into mist in front of your eyes is exactly the kind of thing you would expect to see from such a being. When I noticed that Hide and Move Silently are both core skills for the Pale Master, I think it's justifiable for the inclusion of (probably one I think) ShadowDancer level for the feat, as clearly Bioware were thinking along the same lines in their vision of the PM.

The other snag is that this character will be created online (for Undermountain) and it's not possible to stack ability points for use later, but I seemed to be able to get around 30 in MS and Hide around level 22, even though I was paying double points to get them. I don't like a lot of the core wizard skills so I don't have to compromise there.

One thing I did notice was two skills that seemed to preclude the tumble skill (beyond the 5 needed for the ShadowDancer levels). I forget the names, but one prevented attacks of opportunity whilst moving around in combat and the other prevented them whilst making an unarmed attack (ie. with my skeletal arm). Would having both of these mean I could leave out excessive tumble levels (which I'm quite keen to do, because my necromancer will not be tumbling anywhere. It would be quite impractical in his robes and totally destroy his menacing air [img]smile.gif[/img] )

You mentioned selecting Wizard levels carefully above level 20 for my epic spells - am I wrong in thinking that as they are feats, I will be offered them regardless of whether I'm choosing a PM or Wizard level? According to http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/spe...ml#EpicWarding ,Epic warding is the only one to actually specify 'epic level caster' whereas the rest just say things like 'ability to cast 9th level spells'. Would it therefore be valid to just take a 21st wizard level when my spellcraft hits the required 34? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious...

I feel obliged to take the Mummy Dust Epic Spell, but I've heard it described as the most rubbish Epic Spell available - is this fair to it? Any Epic Spells that just aren't worth it? I was going to leave out at least Dragon Knight because I can't be expert at summoning everything.

And finally, would you take PM levels beyond 10? Is it worth the fact that you will end up with a few less spell slots to gain a small improvement to AC and HP and be able to use your undead graft another couple of times a day. The benefits of going further than level 10 do seem quite small, especially as all the Epic PM bonus feats I would already receive with the Epic Wizard so in a sense I was thinking this is unnecesary duplication?

On a slight aside, I've just noticed that both Mages and PM's get Automatic Still Spell. Does this mean that every spell cast is cast as if it were a level higher (as would normally happen) - and does this really mean that mages can wear armour with no casting penalty when they hit epic levels?! It seems almost too good to be true....

Thanks for all your help guys, it's much appreciated. If anyone is interested and I get a break from work then I may see about creating a bit of a background for him and posting it up.

Ah thanks T-D-C, I spent so long writing the above that I missed your post! I think single levels in monk and paladin would be pushing my personal boundaries over character creation, but thank-you for the suggestion! I'll have to keep an eye out for her next time I'm adventuring and we can slaughter side by side.

That's interesting what you say about Wail of the Banshee; in my tinkering I'd chosen all the various levels of specialisation for necromancy to stay in character, but had regarded them really as 'wasted' feats. That's encouraging to know they make a real difference to gameplay.

Thanks for your input! [img]smile.gif[/img]

There are no other skills that prevents attacks of opportunity while moving around, other than Tumble, and no for unarmed strike . There are two feats, on the other hand, and it's probably those you mean, right? ;)

The feats are Spring Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike.

I don't believe the epic spell category of epic feat will become available unless your a wizard at the time you are able to select the feat.. thats why I said choose carefully when to increase beyond level 20 for your wizard.

Mummy dust is actually quite nice because the mummy can hit moderate ac characters with elemental damage. Its also good as a distraction against other casters.

I'd personally get ALL the epic spells.

Don't discount mage feats:
1. spell penetration
2. greater spell penetration
3. epic spell penetration
4. combat casting (for #5)
5. improved combat casting
6. spell focus evocation
7. greater spell focus evocation
8. epic spell focus evocation
9. spell focus necromancy
10. greater spell focus necromancy
11. epic spell focus necromancy
12. empower spell
Empower spell not only increases the strength of the spell but also allows additional spells that you may want.

Ex. with the above listing against a Prismatic Dragon.
1. Cast epic spell hellball on dragon
2. Cast timestop on your character
3. Cast 8th level empowered Issac's Missle Storm 5 times

Result: Dead Dragon

Because of the Epic Spell Focus in Evocation AND the Epic Spell Penetration (with the bonus from 26 in intelligence) - the Prismatic Dragon can't resist this spell. For that matter I don't think ANYTHING can resist it.. the only things you'll need to worry about are wild and null magic zones and PERHAPS a level 40 Monk that has been selecting spell resistance feats. Additionally, a opponent wearing an item with a magic resistance of 20 will totally resist this damage.

tumble needs to be 5 for your Shadow Dancer Level. When you do get to select that (SD) as a character level, plow-in an additional 15 (for a total of 20) in tumble: this gives you the max AC bonus for tumble (+4). Spring attack isn't bad.. forget about Unarmed attack - it does nothing for your Palemaster touches. In fact you'll find that your Palemaster touches to be relativly worthless against high level opponents (who will make their saves). The Spell Finger of Death however (with all the spell penetration and focus extras) should work on occasion against high level opponents.

I don't think they get still spell for free, its a worthless feat though and its really only for if you have been silenced. Most of the time your problems will be from blindness, fear, or confusion (and the last 2 can overcome with a clarity potion). It does nothing for the AC penalties.

A Palemaster's greater undead summon improves with Palemaster levels. You might try to see what you get at a particular level. (I just ran a test run of this character and wasn't too impressed by the vampire rogue I got at about PM level 14).

[ 10-12-2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: ScottG ]

I love complex builds..

My favorite is the MOST versital class combination, (while also being the most difficult to construct), I call the Risen Lord build.

Core values:
1. High level Rogue with extreme dexterity
2. Druid and Shifter levels for the Undead Shift.. and in particular the Risen Lord.
3. The exteme dexterity with an epic Rogue allows for 50 percent concelement + avoiding the first attack every round.
4. The undead shape is immune to many spells and has damage reduction.
5. The "use magic device" skill allows the Risen Lord to cast any spell via a scroll - (though the damage multiplier is essentially non-existant).
6. The backstab is monsterous while the undead shape is immune to it (and criticals).

Yes, they are interesting watching all the different elements come together. Once I finalise this dude, I might post the level progression up to help any following in my dark footsteps.

You probably know about it already, but you may find http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_builds.html quite interesting - it's a selection of the best characters which are all fairly complex. You should submit your Risen Lord if he's that vicious!

I'll run through another build of him this evening when I've done my essay, but I agree - his summons don't sound that great compared to the Epic Mummy I would have access to anyway. Decisions shall be made tonight [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks again

[ 10-13-2004, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Yup, I've read through most of that - freaking server is WAY to slow though. The one I found the most interesting of the group was the Palemaster/Weapon Master build where the primary attack is provided by the Palemaster's lesser demi-lich summon. Frankly though, it wasn't powerfull enough for a level 40 character.

As promised, a background for my intrepid necromancer:

Aladine was born in the small market town of Darine; a close-knit community that grew up along one of the main trading routes south of Loudwater. His father was a member of the town militia and was killed fighting off a band of raiding orcs, leaving his upbringing to the care of his older sister Caitlin and his mother; a calm gentle woman named Lizzy. By all accounts, his childhood was a good one. The days were spent playing in the fields around the town or getting into mischief with the visiting merchants. These carefree duties came to an abrupt end when a visiting mage declared that he had natural talent and wanted to have him taught the rudiments of the art to see how he performed.

Always keen for a new adventure, Aladine persuaded his family to let him go, not realising that the fantasy world of magic in his head was about to be shattered by the dull world of musty books and classrooms. Having had no formal education as such, Aladine struggled in lessons and was liberally mocked by the other students who perceived him as stupid. Far from home and missing his family, especially his sister who had such a large role in his childhood, Aladine had a miserable few years. Visits home were few and far between, although Aladine now sought comfort in his books, and now that he had learnt to read and write, discovered that he did indeed have some aptitude with study. With few friends at the school, he spent hours in the libraries and within a year had passed the other students in ability. Their taunts at his intellect were now replaced by mutterings of jealousy.

After the second year of his renewed efforts, he left to visit his home town, now an apprentice mage, ahead of his class and able to cast several spells without mistake. He arived home to have his world shattered. Instead of Caitlin running out to embrace her younger brother, he found her lying in bed with her mother in attendance. A bout of plague had swept the town in his absence, and she was desperately ill. It was clear that her mother was exhausted; her face gaunt and drawn, so the first thing he did was send her to bed. He had some limited knowledge of the healing arts, but it was never going to be enough and over the following weeks he watched his beloved sister slip away from him. It was a horrible disease, her once-vibrant face a pale ashen colour, with sores and boils all over her body coupled with agonising pain. She didn't recognise friends and was clearly delusional, screaming and thrashing to escape nightmares that only she could see. She passed away in his arms but was not allowed a proper grave, her body being dumped in a mass grave for plague victims. The disease had been so deadly that the graveyard simply could not cope with the numbers of dead.

Somehow the lack of a decent burial compounded the grief that they felt, and not two weeks later his mother caught a fever. The stress of caring for her daughter coupled with her grief meant she could put up little resistance to the fevour and she passed away soon afterwards.

Aladine returned to his studies - after all, what else was left for him in the world? He devoted every fibre of his being into learning in an effort to rid his mind of the haunting images that were etched on the inside of his eyelids. As the years wore by and he became more and more engrossed in the cold world of magery his mind also became cold. He began to realise that his sister had died because she was weak and therefore her life was cut short by something else - her destiny was no longer her own. Images of her gruesome dying moments still haunted his dreams and he resolved to succeed where she could not, determined not to suffer her fate for himself.

With this new goal in mind, Aladine began to turn to the older forbidden sections of the library and began his research into the possibilities of life over death. Never would he have to suffer the same pitiful fate as his sister! His hard work over the coming years paid off when he managed to animate a skeleton in his laboratory. Unfortunately, control of it was as yet beyond him, and it blundered out of his laboratory where it was promptly discovered by other professors. Aladine was expelled in disgrace, but he didn't care. What could those fools teach him? He'd long given up listening to their teachings and focused on his own studies of necromancy.

It was not long after his expulsion when word reached him of an elaborate dungeon below the surface of Waterdeep, rumoured to be controlled by a mighty mage who was said to have lived for thousands of years. Aladine immediately set off for that distant city, resolving to wrest the secrets of eternal life from Halaster himself. Whilst at the age of thirty he was only a relatively young spellcaster, he more than made up for it with drive and ambition. He consoled himself with the thought that his rise would come, and when it did, Halaster would either divulge his secrets or have them ripped from his mind. Nothing and nobody would stand in the way of his search for life over death.

[ 10-15-2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]