Do you think they will ever add the psionic class to the PC RPG's? I have yet to see it, but then again I am really new to the PC games, and the onyl time I did see it was when it was evil or against you (mind flares BG2)

well, the intellect devourer uses them, probably a spell format like in bg2, I think they'll put them in a mod for the game, as they are very popular, and having them means you can have psionic enemies, talk about nasty, anyone who doesn't think so has never had a character psionically dominated, or mindwiped.

<font color="#00ffee">Not to mention with this point buy system instead of a rolling for stats, almost everyone who isnt a wizard or sorcerer will have mega low INT and Wis scores..which mean crappy saves vs. psionics.</font>

Actually there is psyconics in some game as previously stated bg2 and it is especially prominant in Wizardy 8, great game btw, an entire spell system just for psyconics.

i hope they do include it in an expansion or somthing, because i finally got ahold of the 3rd edition psionic book, and they did a much better job of keeping it balanced this time around.

Psionics won't be in a PC RPG for decades. It requires a DM for a psionic to be worth anything, they have so few powers that can be directly converted to damage or other simple effects without a DM deciding. Too bad, really, since they're the coolest class in existence.

Excuse me for asking (heh), but I am pretty new to everything D&D. What is a psionic and a kensai? Is kensai like samurai?

a psionic is a character who uses internal energy, unlike a mage, or cleric who draw upon magic, or a god for their powers, psionic characters have a great deal of psychic powers, being able to sense danger, move things with their minds, use telepathy, or even adjust their own bodies to become more like an animals such as growing claws, fangs, etc.

A Kensai is an oriental character, who relies on "the best defense is a good offense" theory, they perfect their use of their swords to such an extent that they don't wear armor, or magical Armor enhancors like magic rings, bracers, etc. It is regarded as a munchkin class due to some special abilities they recieve such as a whirlwind attack (in 1st edition D&D, I'm not sure about 3rd) as well as some Ki (mental energy that oriental characters get) that they can focus to make attacks do ungodly amounts of damage.

It amazes me Neb, I thought you said you detested 3:ed??? Well could be my misstake, but have you read the psionic rules for 3:ed?

From your staement above I would think not. The 3:ed Psionic rules give you a variety of possibilities not only to DAMAGE but to enhance your character in movement, combat, diplomatics, sense way to add alot to the game. A Psionic character can use powers that kills an enemy right off at high levels, use mindblasts to hurt enemies, conjur claws, extra strength, extra con etc and thus enhance your characters chances.

Not tougher then converting some of the magic there is.And for you being danish, I have to tell you again! ;) Try NWN! I think you will have a pleasant suprise, it is a good game, I got it yesterdat and if you think it is too easy.. just the slider ;)

Psionics have already been in a PC AD&D game: DARK SUN. The AD&D game after the EOTB series, and before Baldurs Gate.

Psionicists were cool, but no better or worse than some of the other classes. Any character could use psionics to a degree if they had an aptitude for it.

There's no reason why it isn't in games now, other than designer choice. The role is covered by Mages and Sorcerers - that being, characters who use mental 'energy' rather than physical.

It amazes me Neb, I thought you said you detested 3:ed??? Well could be my misstake, but have you read the psionic rules for 3:ed?

From your staement above I would think not. The 3:ed Psionic rules give you a variety of possibilities not only to DAMAGE but to enhance your character in movement, combat, diplomatics, sense way to add alot to the game. A Psionic character can use powers that kills an enemy right off at high levels, use mindblasts to hurt enemies, conjur claws, extra strength, extra con etc and thus enhance your characters chances.

Not tougher then converting some of the magic there is.And for you being danish, I have to tell you again! ;) Try NWN! I think you will have a pleasant suprise, it is a good game, I got it yesterdat and if you think it is too easy.. just the slider ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Well, I think that that blows. Psionics are supposed to use their cleverness to make apparently harmless powers lethal. Not to be just another kind of mage with attack spells.... They already have a SMALL assortment of that. They're NOT supposed to have much of it, this only makes me detest 3rd ed even more.

They can already do what you said. But how would you convert all of their Telepathic skills? You'd have to have seperate thoughts for all creatures, they can speak with plants using telepathy as well. Thoughts for all of the trees in the forest, too? Ouch.

Then there are all of their Clairsentient powers, it'd require an extra CD just for all of the information which they could gain using that. Their shapeshifting Psychometabolic abilities would also be severely limited, instead of an almost infinite amount of choices they'd be narrowed down to 10 or such.

Psionics could NOT be implemented. It'd take an entire DVD or such just for everything that they could do.

In response to Yorick: What sort of psionic abilities were availiable? I severely doubt that more than a quarter of all of the 2nd ed powers could be implemented.

[ 07-04-2002, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Neb ]

Wow I am happy that I got such a great responce. Psionics in 3rd and 2nd addition have well over 100 powers, not to mention the fact that the psionic abilities are split into deviotions and sciences; the latter being stronger then the first. I like others hope they are included soon: But I have learned from this discussion that a Psionic IS just another spell caster. Just like a ranger is just another fighter... its not the class that ,akes it different or special its the player and hoz he or she plays the class that makes it just another spell caster, or a wondorous creation that people will want to experience time and time again. Again; thankyou for the input... have a great Air Force Day.

Have all a mages spells been included in a CRPG? Or all a Bard/Thief/Rangers abilities? How many times have we used "climb walls" or "listen"?

No different with Psionics, it had about the same number as there were spells in that game.

[ 07-04-2002, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Neb, Psionics were always optional in p&p anyway. DMs discretion. To many stats or too much power can just get in the way of good roleplaying.

[ 07-04-2002, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

No offense, but you're getting a little carried away with all this Psionics stuff, Neb. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You want EVERY aspect of Psionics to be covered...but what about the rest of the classes? They aren't totally covered either.

Besides, I think you'd be disappointed even if they did add Psionics, because it would have to be toned down for balancing issues, and some aspects of the class would have to be left out; there is simply too much to cover it all.

Blah, dont listen to that person Neb get carried away thats what gets the balls rolling on stuff to make things happen. j/k but, I do agree that it would be hard to do, on the same token I believe that it could be done. Why a few years ago we thought warcraft 3 would never come out..... well its out... and how about the monk class??? That one was just as hard to get out without making it to powerfull! I am going to write to wizards and tell them to add it! Why not.

Arguing over Psionics? 1. It's in the supplements. 2. Psionics, prior to 3E sucked as a psionicist just another game-imbalancing Uber-character. Like the original Monk and all those Oriental Adventurer characters. Kensai... What a ludicrous class, I could rant for hours...

Put my vote in the "Thank God for the Return of Sanity" category.

Neb, Neb.. You might be Danish but hehe, sorry ;)
Have you ever used detect magic?, read thoughts, prestidigation? Scry, climb, jump, bluff diplomacy etc etc etc etc read minds detect thougts in 2:nd ed DnD CRPG?

If you have, I can only say wow, for you detesting 3:ed, we won´t miss you playing the game, but perhaps it is time for you to start drinking coffee and wake up. It is not about editions, it is about RPG and CRPG that make the difference.

My dad usually say on thing all the time about peole, "It´s all in the head of peole". That is so very true. YOU may like or may not like something, but remember it is only inside your own head. ;)

Good luck in finding what you like. Saying 3:ed seems only to make you sick so I won´t even do that anymore, but then again why are you sonstantly here arguing then??

IMO psionics aren't exactly traditional fantasy in the first place. Most of their powers are so totally crazy in 1st and 2nd editions (I can't comment on 3rd since I haven't seen them yet) that most DM's simply ban them all together. You want to make a close-to-be psionicist? Make a sorceror and get enchantment/charm spells like sleep, charm, confusion etc.

Well, a lot of your comments are rather unfair and closed minded. For example, the whole sleep charm such sorcerer crap, is not psionics. There are almost four hundred spells, some VERY similair to the wizard and sorcerer spells and almost one hundred that I can see might be vauglee familure but not really. I find the psionic a challenge, just like the kensai. YES they CAN be unbalancing, with a bad DM and power hungry players. But a while ago there was a post about the power hungry kensai and I gave a list of almost ten ways to easly dispatch of them. I do not believe any one class is more powerfull or weak than the other, rather I believe DMs are more powerfull or weak than each other. Now it is very easy to grab a claymore as a first level fighter and rip into a first level mage, who will cast burning hands or whatever first level spell they took and run away. Or, if you were that mage you could have ripped out with mage armor, or perhaps change self, and with a bit of role playing you could have a great AC for first level and mabye even beat the fighter one on one, or with the change self you could vanish into the crowd as simply another person, the possibilities are endless.

Now the difference between psionics and magics are great, for one magics come from another source, wether as a mage you draw it from rituals and objects to untap a certain chain reaction to get a desired effect, or the sorcerer who draws from energies within and around to create the same chain reaction and the same desired effect. WHERE AS psionics are things entierly from within the human body and mind. One takes the simple facts of phisics and knowledge of time and space and that little added umph of zen power and creates a chain reaction to gain a desired effect, in a sense yes magic and psionic are the same, just different means of getting there.

If you are arguing that the psionic is not a needed class, I argue then that the sorcerer is not needed for it is just another mage who we do not need.

Those who use the scapegoat of ˝its to powerfull of a class˝are simply running away from the fact that they can not use the class and are unfamilur with its rules and regulations.

Then again, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Have all a mages spells been included in a CRPG? Or all a Bard/Thief/Rangers abilities? How many times have we used "climb walls" or "listen"?

No different with Psionics, it had about the same number as there were spells in that game.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#ff55cc> "Listen" is in NWN [img]smile.gif[/img] My Elf Ranger frequently hears the enemy long before they see us [img]smile.gif[/img] It is used in the calculation as to whenyou become aware of creatures. As I pump up my listen ability I detect them farther and farther out. noow, if I could only climb over the frickn walls ;) </font>

there is a Psionic class in Wizadry 8, those that argue that Psionics class never ever apeared in any PC RPG probably never played that game.

I would like to see psionics in NWN, that would be nice, BUT I do believe it would have to be implemented as another magetype char.
All the special sence/detect/speak to plants and animals etc. would be very hard to use.

But most of these powers is also available to mage/priest chars in PnP (as spells), so even if they did not implement a psio. they could still make spells that did these things

Indeed the thing I miss the most is NOT ENOUGH SPELLS TO CHOOSE FROM :(

Note to Kakero : Psionics in Wiz 8 has nothing to do with d&d psio. In wiz 8 it's very combat oriented, and they use the same "manasource" so it was "easy" to make psio. in wiz 8.

The Wiz 8 psionic is nothing like a 2nd edition AD&D psionic. A 2nd edition AD&D psionic can, with a lot of luck, make intelligent weapons that can use psionics. Disentigrate, blow up inanimate objects, create iron weapons from metal dust, talk to plants, use telepathy, teleport and so on.....

What balances the Psionic is that:

#1: He does NOT have all these powers at once, he gains them slowly.

#2: He CAN fail when using a power and they can even backfire and strike him instead of his foes.

#3: He has a limited amount of points for using these abilities per day.

What makes the Psionic special:

#1: Almost all of his abilities can be improved with a bit of creative thinking. Whereas a mage's magic missile will always do the same damage.

#2: Without a bit of creative thinking the Psionic is often useless.

#3: A lot of his powers can NOT be duplicated by any mage, sorcerer or cleric.

#4: He has few to none directly damaging powers depending on his level, intelligence is required to make those that he DOES have deal damage.

What prevents the Psionic from being implemented in a CRPG properly:

#1: Telekinesis and most psychokinetic powers would be able to affect almost all parts of the world. Everything in the world would have to be made affectable by it, possible on a comp? I think not.

#2: Psychoportation(Movement) powers would be able to bring you to a lot of places and do lots of stuff. But a lot of them requires the DM's judgement that a computer simply CAN NOT bring into play.

#3: Telepathic, see #2

#4: Psychometabolic, same thing as #2 and #1. You'd be able to change so many things that only the DM could decide....

#5: To handle all of the previous points the psionic would need some pure damage powers to make up for the less of flexibility, then what do we have? Another damn mage.

Have all a mages spells been included in a CRPG? Or all a Bard/Thief/Rangers abilities? How many times have we used "climb walls" or "listen"?

No different with Psionics, it had about the same number as there were spells in that game.</font>[/QUOTE]That's because a CRPG is mainly combat-oriented, and a psionic really isn't. His skill is in avoiding combat or weakening foes in combat to aid his partymembers. We can't just remove all of a psionic's unprogrammable powers, because that'd remove about 90% of them. And what he'd be left with would make him like a weak thief/cleric. If not worse.

Tell me, Draconis, how are psionics "uber"?

oh oh oh oh oh. i sense or feel some cat fights coming in on this thread may be worth sittin back and enjoy watching this one [img]tongue.gif[/img] . cause other than that i have no friggin clue what you guys are talking about.

Sorry, I just get a little pissy when people are saying stuff about my favorite class that I consider untrue [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Besides its all pointless. We all know the monk is the best class [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I'm with you on this one Neb, There's a reason I always run a Dark Sun campaign at home.

sorry if this has been said already, but psionics in 2nd edition were way overpowered. with 1 skill/spell, you were almost invincible.

kinetic control, usually obtained by around lvl 7 or 8 made you completely immune to all physical damage, you just absorbed all of it then released all that absorbed kinetic energy in one attack.

*spoiler*

this was shown in the silent blade when the drow psionicist, Kimmuriel?, gave Entreri the skill and Entreri killed Drizzt, albeit by accident.

But you can fail at using the power. It could backfire. And that's only kinetic energy, no protection from magic whatsoever.

Oh, and you need to know some other powers first before you can learn it at all.

And you can't just be "taught" or "given" a psionic power by someone unless they're at least a god or demi-god.

[ 07-11-2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Neb ]

also it can't be used to halt your own kinetic energy, ie a giant picking up said psionicist and using him as a club against his friends(psionicist takes damage from his moentum, and his friends take damage from the blow (how I dealt with the power whenever the players went uber-munchkin with it) and you as a DM have a duty to LOOK at the powers being chosen by the players, and either interpret them, or ban the power completely if you can't figure out how to keep the character from abusing his powers. Besides Kinetic control is no more dangerous than a mage casting fireshield and stoneskin on himself, and he actually takes longer to be able to do any damage

[ 07-11-2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

Ok, while we are on the subject again that psionic abilities are to powerfull... let me mention a previously described POCKED FRICKEN NUKE SPELL.... witha bit of creative thinking on a high level mage... or even a low level thief with good threats and coning of a high level mage (always possible in DND) one can create a fireball contraption that is invisible, will do anywhere from 10-10000 points of damage, and will fill an area with enough smoke to completely black out the tag mahal, BUT YET there's more! Its invisible for traveling short distance, and it is a trap, so it doesnt go off all at once, and the only way to trigger it is to open the box, if the box is opened or broken BOOM, if its simply left alone, your fine. (We all know how the thief detect traps work... "Alright I search for traps"..."Ok... you detect no traps..." that means a lot, it means there are traps there that you didnt detect, or you actually didnt detect any). So by using two delayed blast fireballs, and contingency pyrotechnics and unseen servent, a mage can kick the crap out of large armys. And furthermore, less creative, Melfs Minute Meteors, ok, a hail of fricken fireballs railing into a whole bunch of people. Ok but wait there is more, magic missle, 1d4+1 Right? NO Its not just that, its a fricken magic machine gun, 1d4+1 with an extra bullet every odd level, it hits all creatures no matter what it is required, the only thing saving you from this cursed spell is the counter spell shield, or a high magic resistance, cause I know the 2nd addition drow has a 30% but will it work every damn time?

Some one said that kenetic energy made the psionic invincible, no it doesnt, there is a limit on how much energy you can absorb. Now as for the reference to Artemes and Drizzt... HOLLY PISS PEOPLE THEY WERE NEAR 13th LEVEL AND ARTEMES HAD THE BACKING OF AN ENTIRE DROW HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats all I have to say about that book, but anyway, the monk is also pretty much invincible at high levels as well, dimond body resistance to poison and desiese... so on so forth. Also the fighter, by 2nd additions rules with his bare hands at level 6 striked as a +0 multipurpose weapon, therfore that pesky demon requiring a +5 weapon to hit would get hurt with 1d3 dmg + whatever ungodly strength a fighter has every round... TWICE if the fighter is multi talented, god save that demon if the fighter decided to take the ninja class. If you have any beef with any class you monk lovers it should be fighter, you guys are getting RIPPED OFF! A fighter strikes as +1 at level 6 +2 8 so on so forth, so what if a monk does more damage, you guys dont get your plusses till later on!

And who the devil said that every object in a game couldnt be mvoed by telekenisis, I think they are full of it, look how far games have come in just 20 years???? We have gone from the all to well known, yet never found origonal PONG! To Never Winter Nights! Who would have thought back then that you could even imagine a fake 3d interface? Let alone any sort of multi screen interface? OR 256 COLORS????? You people need to put more faith in your programers, they will come up with a way if we supply the need.

Well thats all my ranting and raving for now,
Remember this is just my opionion, I could be wrong.

Ummmm..... It's not just ONE power, telekinesis, that can affect EVERY single thing in the world, it's also: Detonate, molecular agitation, cryokinesis and at least 10 other powers. That's going to be ■■■■■■■ hard to assure, and unless it can be done psionicists are just going to be compensated with other things and going to end up as another mage.