According to the manual, many skills will improve automatically with use, but other skills can only be improved by guild training or putting points into them when the character levels up.

Is there a list anywhere of which skills go up by themeselves and which have to be manually increased? (Apologies if it's someplace obvious and I've overlooked it.)

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From posts here and experience with other games, it sounds like the different starting attributes for different clans don't make much difference once the characters have leveled up some.

So is there any consensus on the value of the different traits for the clans, and how helpful they are over the long term?

Looking at the manual, the Elves' 'Quick learner' certainly looks useful, and the Oomphaz's 'Mana Seed' also sounds helpful. But how valuable are traits like 'War Cry', does the Pixies' 'Dodge' make up for their equipment limitations (as long as they're in a role that doesn't need much equipment), etc.?

I'll probabaly do what I usually do: pick my character races (clans) based on what looks interesting, but some feedback on the value of the different traits would be helpful so I know what I might be getting myself into. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-31-2005, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: DinkumThinkum ]

All the fighting skills will improve by themselves. You can also improve every skill every time you level up, and in the guilds you can improve some of them by spending money. Generally you should find out which guilds offer what kind of training and spend all the points when levelling up on skills you cannot improve through purchase.

By exploiting a few bugs a character can become member of all the guilds, and by using a few hints, you will soon have enough money to do it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

After the first 7-8 or so level-ups the different races will tend to be very equal in strength. Only the elves have an advantage worth noticing in the form of "quick learner".

1. The skills. Nobody has made the list so far. Here is my personal experience:
(a) As Bsftcs has said, the weapon skills improve by practicizing them. But, usually, they improve only if you really use them. The Sword skill will improve only if you fight with a sword, and so on.
(b) Magic users improve all their "natural" magic shools (the ...craft skills) but they do not improve the rest of magic schools.
(c) Mages, Warlocks, and Zenmasters improve the Sorcery skill by casting spells.
(d) Thief-like characters (thiefs, barbarians, ninjas, assassins, and bards) improve the Lockpicking skill by picking locks and the Pickpocket skill by stealing.
(e) The rest of skills does not(?) improve by practicizing and you must train them by investing skill points or by training in guilds.

2. The inborn traits. IMO, the Quick Learner and the Mana Seed are the only valuable inborn traits. The rest of inborn traits represents either no advantage or only a temporary advantage. Beware of pixies! The Dodge trait looks very interestingly but it causes pixies to dodge their own spells! It's a very annoying bug, which can make you ready for a madhouse at higher character levels. Pixies are almost unable to cast defensive spells on themselves.
Summary: Select elves and omphaazes. Avoid pixies. If you decide for other races then it does not matter which races you select. If you will see some difference between races at all (except elves and omphaazes) then you will see it only in the beginning of the game.

Welcome to the boards, DinkumThinkum [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] May your adventures in the Gael Serran be the stuff dragon parents tell their children at bedtime [img]smile.gif[/img]

The only trait I've found to have a real noticable impact is the elven quick learner. If there's an advantage to mana seed, I haven't noticed it (and I play Oomphaz almost all the time). The Gourkh bloodscent also works, but it seems to be equivalent to a level 1 or 2 Scouting skill.

As both Radek and bsftcs have said, any differences are only noticable for a short while at the beginning of the game. By the middle of the game, every character is quite formidable, and by the end, they are gods... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Have fun! And do come back to let us know how your game is progressing :D

Radek, thanks for the list of skills that advance with use; it should come in handy. [img]smile.gif[/img] That info might be worth adding to the 'Best Tips!' thread, in case others might find it helpful.

As far as the races, it sounds like the various clan traits don't have a major impact (other than the elves faster leveling and skill advancement). So I'll just pick clans based on what I like and what looks interesting.

It is nice to be forewarned about the Pixies' problem casting spells on themselves. [img]smile.gif[/img]

One of the really nice things about W&W is that you can choose what you like/find interesting and it will work! It's a very flexible system and there are no wrong choices to be made. :D

I have found that Fairy Barbarians/Fighters are not of much use. They can't effectively use most of the good weapons nor most of the really good armour. At least this has been my experience--which could have just been a fluke (or more likely, poor planning :( ). Needless to say, almost everything else works quite well, though some combinations require more effort than others.

Anyway, happy gaming! W&W is a great game that I always find myself coming back to throughout the years.

lol!!

You're probably very correct, Griefmaker, a fairy barbarian/fighter wouldn't be of great use but that makes sense really. YOu get plus points for trying that combination! I would never have thought to do that. ;)

Hmmm... they can probably still wear Dragon Plate... :D Other than that, it's part of the trade-offs. Boy, I love a game that's flexible enough to let you mess up ;)

Pixies can use any armor and any weapon allowed to their current class. A pixie warrior is perfectly possible and he can wear complete plate mail plus, for example, 2H sword. Such warrior looks funny, because the sword is bigger than the wielder [img]smile.gif[/img] but it is possible. Such warrior is as efficient as any other warrior with the same abilities and skills.
Another question is carrying capacity of a pixie. It is low so that the pixie gets overloaded by the mail and the sword unless he has high STR. Even then, the pixie won't be able to bear much other items along with the mail and the sword.

Radek,

Thanks for clearing up about pixies being able to use any equipment their class can use, as long as they have the strength and carrying capacity. [img]smile.gif[/img]

In the Wizardry games, fairies have racial limits on what they can use, even if they have lots of strength. Until you posted, I wasn't completely sure W&W pixies didn't have similar restrictions.

My current party does have two pixies, a rogue and a priest, and my future plans for them are mostly Warlock/Monk/Ninja roles, so carrying capacity and heavy equipment shouldn't be major issues for them.

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Another question for you great folks: [img]smile.gif[/img]

According to the official mini-guide that came with my game, one disadvantage of becoming a Warlock is that the character can no longer advance in combat abilities.

However, I saw a post here that says they can continue to advance normally in Kung Fu (assuming they learned it in a previous role).

So how does this actually work: if I ascend a Monk or Ninja to a Warlock, will they still be able to continue developing their Monk/Ninja combat skills normally?

What I'm trying to decide is the best role order to develop my Pixies:

Priest -> Monk -> Warlock or Priest -> Warlock -> Monk

and

Rogue -> Ninja -> Warlock or Rogue -> Bard -> Warlock -> Ninja

(I don't want to use guild hopping or restarts to shorcut the role ascensions.)

For the Rogue, I may put a period as a Ranger, Samurai, or Paladin in there too (before becoming a Warlock), to gain another spell book.

Basically, I want the characters to be primarily a Monk or Ninja, but with more spell casting options.

I understand that the Monk/Ninja will only be able to learn non-native spells at half their level, so the Warlock might be a bettter final role if they can continue learning and using the Monk/Ninja skills normally.

[ 04-01-2005, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: DinkumThinkum ]

By the end of the game, you won't be worried too much about how much you're advancing in these skills. Once you're at level 7 in a combat skill, you're pretty much unstoppable (max being 14, with enlightenment).

Radek mentioned above that skills advance as you use them... so your warlock fighting with his or her hands will increase kung fu skill. But the rate of increase is so slow at higher levels that I find it easier to just train in it when I get the chanec.

The only thing to worry about for learning non-native spells is to make sure you get the level 7 spells while they're native. Otherwise, you can't get them until they become native or the game is almost over. A ninja with Sun 12 can learn 6th level spells... so the penalty becomes moot.

Remember, there's no right or wrong way to play the game. Just have fun, and you will have succeeded. And you can play again (and again, and again, and... ) and try out different combinations. I'm thinking a party of Oomphaz rogues could be interesting... :D

That's not quite what I was asking about. [img]smile.gif[/img]

According to the official mini-guide:

"By choosing the path of the Warlock a character concentrates entirely on magic losing advancement in all combat abilities."

(I'm one of those nutcases who actually read manuals...)

To me, that makes it sound like once a character ascends to Warlock they can't develop their combat skills any more. I'm asking if that's true or if it's just an error in the documentation.

Well, I'm not completely certain. I haven't watched what happens to weapon skills because frankly, I train them at the guilds instead of building them with skill points. Those skill points are far more valuable for things like sorcery, gallantry, and prowess than they are for weapons, IMHO. I know that you can still train in them at the guilds, and you can still apply skill points to them... I'm just not sure about the natural progression.

If you want to find out, here's an easy way: train your warlock's primary weapon to the next level.

When you level up again, check to see how much gold it would cost to raise it up (or to what percentage a skill point would increase it). But don't train or use a skill point.

Check those again at the next level (assuming that yon warlock occasionally uses that primary weapon), and see if they're different. If they are, then you gain as you go, even in weapons.

If not, then keep tracking until you've completed four or five level-ups and proven that there's no advancement.

Enjoy [img]smile.gif[/img]

If the skills can be trained at the guilds or advanced with points at level up, that answers what I was trying to ask. Guess I wasn't being too clear. :(

(I was reading the mini-guide as saying that the skills were frozen: couldn't be advanced at all.)

Part of the reason for my questions is that most of my gaming for several years has been in very familiar game systems: Morrowind, Might & Magic VI, VII, VIII, and Wizardry 8.

I just finished up Wiz 8 a few days before jumping into W&W. Some things in W&W are very similar to the Wizardry series, but others are completely different, so I'm having to recalibrate my brain to keep things straight. [img]smile.gif[/img]

No worries [img]smile.gif[/img] Sometimes some of us have been playing the game for so long that we can make even the simplest question overly complicated :D

I'm also a big fan of the MM series, and somewhat of Wizardry, as are many others here. You're not alone... ;) As long as you can remember the proper way to attack in whatever game you're playing, you'll do just fine [img]smile.gif[/img]

Although a trait is indigenous to a specific race, it does not necessarily mean that others cannot acquire it. For instance the snakeskin trait indigenous to lizzords can be acquired during the course of the game. And then, of course, there is the W&W trainer with which you can create characters with all the capabilities you like. [img]smile.gif[/img]

To be honest, that's what's turning out to be my biggest hassle in W&W so far: getting used to the combat system.

The majority of my gaming has been turn-based and phased-combat RPGs, and the 'Adaptive Time-Phasing' system in W&W is driving me nuts. :( To me, it feels more like arcade style 'clickity-click' than any kind of turn-based system.

I was investigating a room in the crypt, and some monsters charged in and started attacking my party. Before I even got to do anything about it, one of my characters was dead. :( Similar things have happened before.

If the problem is that my chararacters are low level and are just a lot slower than the monsters right now, I can live with that: level them up, increase their Agility, etc. and the problem solves itself.

But if the problem is the reaction time, reflexes, etc. of the guy at the keyboard, then W&W and I aren't going to get along too well. :( I do enjoy planning, tactical combat, thinking things out, etc. in games. But when my reflexes, speed, etc. are a significant factor in a game I just get bored and frustrated.

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While I'm thinking about timing: what's the best way to pause the game? I've already discovered that opening up inventory, looking at the map, etc. don't work. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Right now I either go to the Options menu or the Save game menu, both of which do seem to stop the game. Are those the standard solutions, or is their a better way of putting the game on hold?

Another question I keep forgetting to ask:

Some spells, traits, etc. are described as affecting 'nearby party members'. What is meant by 'nearby party members?

For example, one of my warriors is a human with the Natural Leader trait, and I normally have her in the first position in the marching order (she's the toughest character). Will she inspire everybody in the party from the first position, just the character next to her (in position two), or what?

Don't worry, mate. W&W is *not* a game where your physical keyboard and mouse skills become critical. True, there is a fair bit of mouse clicking to attack, but that's about it.

Checking the back of my manual, it shows that you can hit "T" as a real-time toggle switch. I don't recall if I've tried it before or not, but you might look at that.

Basically, the only thing that screws me up in combat is when someone is set to cast a magic spell or someone just used something. Some o' them critters require you to click on a target, and my computer has been known to beep and hiss at me a dozen times before I realize it. I leave everyone set at their favorite weapon except for the main character, who has the map up. From either spot, you can immediately attack... as soon as you can spin around.

There are a fair number of random encounters, depending on your game setting (easy, medium, or hard). I always play on hard with maximum difficulty -- more points that way, or so I think. It's not like other games (Wizardry, for example) where the hard setting means that every step can easily be your last.

1. Warlock's fight abilities. Don't believe scrolls of misinformation! They are telling lot of nonsense, especialy the W&W ones.
Warlocks are excellent fighters but they need the Heroic Might (Spirit Magic, level 4) boost. You can train their fighting skills and the skills will improve. Right, a warlock is a worse fighter than, for example, an assassin at given skill and ability levels but the Heroic Might spell will compensate it.
You can even give a warlock the 2nd Weapon skill (the warlock must be a member of the Fighter's Guild) because there exist a left hand weapon available to warlocks in the game: Main Gauche. Your warlock will have 2 attacks per round.
Train your warlocks in the Dagger skill. The best weapon in the game at all is a dagger (Wizard Blade). Moreover, Main Gauche is a dagger, too. Main Gauche +2 belongs to the best 2nd weapons in the game. Better is Wakizashi +2 (sword), the best is the Assassin Dagger (dagger, but available only to thief classes, not ot warlocks or warriors).

2. The phased combat. It's an attempt to allow the player to use brains instead of quick fingers on his mouse. The base idea is to allow all monsters only one attack. Then the monsters must wait until you decide for some action. Then each monster gets one attack again. And so on.
That means that you have plenty time for decision what to do. Once the monsters have attacked, they have to wait until you decide for the right spell, target the right monster and cast. Only then they can continue attacking.
In practice, the system makes the monsters lame. Only the very fast monsters are dangerous sometimes. The rest of monsters will wait until it gets killed.

I'm used to inaccurate manuals, believe me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

This bit of misinformation seemed to be reasonable, though: other classes are penalized learning non-native spells, but Warlocks aren't. So it seemed reasonable that Warlocks would instead have a penalty for learning combat skills.

Glad this has been cleared up, and thanks for the extra info about daggers.

This is really just personal preference; we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. :D

Here's what bugs me about the combat system:

1. While the monsters are at a distance, everything is strictly real time (as far as I can tell). If I clickity-click with the mouse fast enough, I might manage to get off a few spells while they're charging, but mostly I don't get anywhere.

So that's one part of combat (at a distance) where my reflexes, mousing skill, etc. are more important than my characters' speed, skills, etc. and where I don't have time to think about what I'm doing. Stop to look at spells or think of what to do, and the creatures are on top of me.

2. Once the creatures do get close and start swinging, that's also semi-realtime. I don't have to wait for the monsters to finish their attacks: I can start swinging or casting anytime I want. If I'm lucky and fast enough, I may even manage to kill one or two monsters before they get their swings in.

And this is also dependent on my personal skills, mousing clicking speed, etc., not on my thinking and planning and not on my characters' abilities.

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If my characters get clobbered because I make bad decisions, I'll happily learn from my mistakes and try to figure out better tactics for the next battle. But when my characters die because I just wasn't fast or accurate enough with the mouse, that ticks me off. I just don't enjoy that type of gaming.

As you mentioned, so far most of the monsters seem to be pretty wimpy, and I seem to be winning most battles despite hating the combat system. I'll probably keep playing the game, since there are enough things I like in it to make up for the annoying combat.

There is only one set of monsters (two variations) that *really* make combat skills important. You'll meet them on the other sideo of Ishad N'ha, and when you hear the voices of thousands of other IronWorkers telling you to RUNNNN!!!!.... just do it [img]smile.gif[/img]

Remember the IW motto... they WILL hunt you down...

No other monster is as challenging as those two cousins... and if you want to be spoiled about them, just ask. If not... then take my advice, and be sure to save your game after you leave Ishad N'ha-ha-ha. You WILL be needing it... guaranteed.

One of the things I like in CRPGs is character development: lots of character class choices, interesting skills and spells to learn, etc.

And W&W does have plenty of that: one of the reasons I asked so many questions [img]smile.gif[/img] about skills, etc. in this thread is that I enjoy figuring out what skills I want for my characters, how to develop them, etc.

But I wish the game offered more chances to effectively use use the skills and spells in combat. Right now, I'm part way through the first crypt (in the Asylum area), and most of my battles consist of putting the mouse pointer in the middle of a mob of enemies and clicking the mouse button as fast as I can until the enemies are all dead. :(

So far, I've been playing on the average difficulty setting; when I go back to the game, I'll try turning it up to the higher setting to see if that makes combat more interesting.

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Frankly, I'm surprised at the combat system in the game. I've played Wizardry 6 & 7, both done by DWB, so I know he's worked with detailed combat systems before (my experience with those games was a big part of my decision to try Wizards and Warriors). W&W has detailed character development, classes, etc. similar to what was in the Wizardry games, but the combat is nowhere on a par with the Wizardry games or most other party-based CRPGs I've played.

NOTE: I am enjoying the game! :D Some parts of it, especially the combat system, aren't near as good as what I was hoping for, but overall it is fun to play.

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This game's been out for several years. I'm new to it, and I have no idea what the long-term posters and players have figured out already.

Anyway:

My impression, both from the combat system and the sometimes bizarre interactions with NPCs in town, is that at least some of the game's code was originally written for a single-character game, and then the party-based code was just slapped on later.

For example, that (to me) might explain why NPCs in town want to do their entire long-winded greeting from scratch every time I select a new party member while in their building.

Just the way the game feels to me; this was probably debated and settled years ago! [img]smile.gif[/img]

AFAIK, the game was put into market in the middle of the development. No money, no time, we are going so sell the game now! Here is the result:

(a) The game is full of bugs. Some of them work for you, some of them are nasty traps.
(b) The development of the game has been left unfinished. For example, note all those non-interacting objects in the game, which pretend to be interactive (blue cursor). The game combines multiplayer and singleplayer ideas even if it is only sigleplayer. The game is unbalanced and it needs a beter tuning awfully.

Nevertheless, the game is great even in its sorry state. It's a pity that the project hasn't been finished. I daresay we would have one of the best CRPGs ever seen.

[ 04-06-2005, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: Radek ]

Some minor additions:

a. Shield skill doesn't seem to go up with use; but even with just one point it does stop an occasional hit, so I figure it's doing some good.

c. Rangers and priests also improve their Sorcery skill with use, so I would guess all the roles with native spell-casting ability will improve it.

e. Athletics skill appears to be going up on its own, very slowly, for at least the lead character in my party. That might be because of all the swimmming in the starting crypt.

Now that I've spent a little time in the game, I realize that skill advancement with use is pretty minor in W&W. I asked because in other games where skills improved with use, building skills through practice was a significant part of game play (Wasteland, Daggerfall/Morrowind, the last couple of Wizadry games, for example).


The Quick Learner trait does make a real difference for the Elves in gaining experience.

So far, I really can't see a major effect from the Mana Seed trait, but I haven't really watched mana regeneration that closely. Biggest advantage I'm seeing to my Oomphaz priest is her high carrying capacity (due to her size); makes her great for carrying loot. :D Gave her the Artifacts skill, which cuts back on swapping loot around to get it identified.