I've pretty much done W&W to death, also Wizardry 8.
I'm wondering if there is another RPG worth playing at the mom, and that is OUT!

I'll give anything a go.

Thx.

Try old ones, like wizardry 7, bards tale 1&2&3, dungen master and chaos srtikes back (now both avalible in "return to chaos" conversion), eye of the beholder 1&2&3, baldur's gate 1&2, fallout 1&2, anvil of dawn, adom, might & magic (1 to 6),"Mordor" and "Demise" (if u like hack&slash), Icewind Dale, Tower of Souls...

Hey people - help me - what more?

Have you played Dungeon Siege??

I've put in my preorder for Dungeon Lords which I hope won't be delayed further.

I'm a big fan of Wiz 7, but can no longer get it working. Didnt know Eye of the Beholder was still around, I'd give that another go if I could find a copy and get it running. I fired up M&M 7 and 8 the other day, boy have those graphics dated, but still reasonable games.

I'm losing faith that we'll ever see Dungeon Lords, but I live in hope. I read a thread somewhere on their site that the combat will be more like an Xbox game, jumping, spinning doing all sorts of clever moves. Has me worried!

No, havent played Dungeon Siege Wyvern, worth a try?

I lost interest at the halfway point where i was in the swamps outside the goblin stronghold. There is a wide selection of creatures to fight and there are alot of quests and u do control 8 ( i think it's 8 ) characters and u can do some optional quests but sometimes u get nothing from it. The thing is you get a main quest and you fight the monsters to get to where it is then you get another quest and fight the monsters to get to that place then you get another .......

IMPORTANT!!!!!!! If u do end up buying Dungeon Siege buy Dungeon Siege: Legends of Aranna as that comes with the original as well as the expansion so u dont need to pay for both.


So to be quick it's all
walk a bit
fight a bit
walk a bit
fight a bit
walk a bit
talk a bit
walk a bit
fight a bit.

Sry for the length of this.

P.S. Diablo 2 Lod ( Lord of Destruction ) on Battle.net ( multiplayer ) is very fun as well

[ 01-17-2005, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: Pop 'n Fresh ]

Dungeon Siege isn't bad and it isn't great either although the environment is pretty nifty viewing. I never actually finished the game though I did get pretty far into it - then I restarted doing multiplayer with my husband and we changed our network and weren't able to get it to work (it might now, we just haven't tried).

The real problem is that there are few good CRPGs around - there are more that fall into the category of being part rpg and part shooter but it's not like the old days when there were almost always a few decent CRPGs from which to choose.

I've got DL preordered - I'm not sure how well I am going to like it since it isn't "party" based and I do enjoy parties but I'm looking forward to trying it out.

Darkstone was pretty good, as I recall. Not sure I ever survived the final battle though I tried and tried! lol!!

I sure wish more party-based games like Wizardry, Might & Magic, and of course Wizards & Warriors were being produced. I'm afraid that our brand of gaming has gone been replaced by FPS and online RPGs.

I'm with you. I'm playing Baldur's Gate right now, and while it's not *completely* party based (since you only fully develop one character), it is less of an FPS. I think the thing for online RPGs is to have folks to play with... which, once I get myself moving forward with NWN, will probably happen for me.

Sadly, there aren't enough of us "real" gamers around to make it profitable. They have to appeal to enough people to make a profit [img]smile.gif[/img]

So what do you think happened to the market over the years??

Ages ago there were always a lot of CRPGs on the market and now they are far and few between. It can't just be the development time - there was a long gap between Doom 2 and Doom3 (okay - and lots of Doom clones to keep fans happy inbetween).

Not that I have a lot of time to play games but it's disappointing to go to Best Buy with my husband and my son and not find anything that even looks remotely interesting.

My thoughts? Well, I think that technology bit us big time.

In days gone by, pen and paper (P&P) gaming was the only real option out there. It required you to use lots of imagination, and to be creative (as both a player and a DM). Many of the folks "with a life" didn't do gaming, primarily because of the time investment (to learn the rules, develop a character, and live to see them grow to something useful).

Enter the computer, with things like Scott Adams games (remember GO NORTH?). Now someone else could be the DM (so to speak), and the cumbersome bits were automated. Still required imagination, though, and creative problem solving.

The next level was CRPG... Bard's Tale, Might and Magic, Ultima, Wizardry.... the good old days. You had graphics (okay, 8-bit), quests, puzzles that couldn't necessarily be solved in the game (Og's Queen to Queen's Level Five in MM1), character development... all the things you did in P&P without the drudgery and erasing the paper over and over again.

Then computers got better. Faster, so they could do more. Better graphics, so you weren't just an icon on the screen. Sound, so you could talk, listen, and develop more personality in your characters.

That's where the problems started up. Being in the software world, I can tell you that developing a tool that works on six different versions of Windows, using all the cool things of the latest version without breaking the first version, is more than a wee bit difficult. You got into compatibility issues between OS levels, video card drivers, sound drivers... and let's not bring up DirectX. Developing something that everyone could use was very expensive, and time-consuming to support as well.

Enter the SNES, Gameboy, PS and PS2, XBox... what they bring to the mix is a common hardware platform. You only have to develop it once. Talk about a cost-savings!

Unfortunately, tastes also changed. The average gamer (who liked, I believe, to tinker with games and computers, and likes to frequent this board) remained the same, but the rest of the population grew. The success of Myst brought the rest of the world into our fantasy world, only it didn't require the imagination. You didn't have to create another persona... you just went. Companies realized that *that* was where the big bucks were, and they started tailoring games to them.

Now it's eye-candy, action, scripted plot lines (even BG and W&W, for that matter), and the imagination element is greatly reduced. I guess there's no profit in letting people imagine, only in sharing yours with them.

BTW, don't think I'm anti-company, 'cause I'm a very staunch pro-capitalist. Sell what people buy, and enjoy the results.

I think part of the issue is that when the first games started long ago, they had good DMs -- people who could create stories and take you to new lands. I remember figuring out the magic square puzzle in MM1, and the thrill of "Dragon Town Meeting... Disrupt? (Y/N)" I don't know that the same number of game-creating DMs exist today. DW Bradley is one... Jon Van Caneghem (M&M) is another. But how many others are there?

I think the worst thing is the loss of imagination. The latter MM games showed this -- too many errand quests so it wouldn't be too hard. "Get a lock of hair from the hag's hairbrush. She's in a cave just outside town, and her hairbrush is on the floor". Puh-lease! I much prefer the MM6 approach: "There's no temple there. Find the temple bowl. Then find a carpenter and stonecutter to build it, then come back to me." True, on one hand it's an errand, but you had to fight to get the bowl, and then give up your current hirelings to build it. There was sacrifice involved at some level, and you couldn't use the temple until you completed it.

That's what I miss, and what I hope is in DL. Sadly, too few others appreciate what makes a good game... a good story that gives you flexibility.

Hmmm... didn't realize I was going to ramble this long. Perhaps it's an issue I care a lot more about than I thought. Any other thoughts out there? And I realized I skipped the "gold-box" games... they're in there after the early four and before the eye candy. ;)

It was a very nice ramble, Bungleau! :D

I saw "eye candy" as becoming increasingly important to developers over the years. There were so many reviews that I recall that criticized the developers if there wasn't something "new" and that generally meant new in terms of eye candy and special effects. And as an additional comment - a lot of that emphasis also seems aimed at young men rather than gamers in general.

My question has always been - if a company had used the same engine they had developed and created a new and better game - wouldn't that have sold well too?

But games such as M&M didn't create new and better games - they spun out the old game in a new - but pretty much the same old thing - form. So many series were like that, same old story with slight changes. So much emphasis in the wrong places and a seemingly lack of creative stories.

I ran a RPG online (in chat) for many (many) years and I know that it can become difficult to constantly come up with new things, new ideas and challenges. Do developers end up in a relative vacuum because so much of their time is devoted to getting their product done that they don't have the time to do the things that really get the creative juices flowing?

Reviewers do affect the market. :( Even though over all W&W must have done so much better than the reviewers would have had you believe, the damage is pretty much already done. I'm speculating that there probably was less development money to be found and that Bradley probably got it more from his reputation and success with the Wizardry series than from W&W. That would obviously make him less inclined to repeat the "failure" of W&W.

Reviewers have their own axe to grind. I generally find them to be half reviewing and half self-promoting their standing as reviewers. They have deadlines to meet and don't always put the time into a game that they might have if they were just playing for their own enjoyment but they have to make sure you think of them as "elite" players.

And the games seem to cater to players who aren't interested in the puzzles or opportunity to be someone else in another place and time but interested in getting the highest stats and most gold. That's a simplifications - but I hope you understand what I mean. I ran a chat rpg for years and years and I had players who really got into being their characters and some that were only concerned about - well, I'm not sure what to call it - status? power?

Years ago there just seemed to be so many choices and now there seem to be so
few.

One of the most frustrating and satisfying games I played was way back in something like 1982 - a game called Asylum for the PC. There was a Nintendo version which had vastly superior graphics (the PC version bordered on being stick people) but the game itself was modified. (I played both) To solve the puzzles you really had to try different things and ultimately it came down to a Sherlock Holmes solution - if you have ruled out all other possibilities, what remains, however improbable, must be correct and it was.

And then there were all the Infocom games - no graphics at all - and they were wonderful games! They had their frustrating moments when the necessary solution was so far fetched but they were fun!

Oh well, I've rambled on a bit as well and I'm not sure I've said anything that adds insight. I have less time for games these days than I once had.

Agreed, Wyv. I often refer to MM7 as "MM6, chapter 2", since it really was nothing new. I think there's a tradeoff between creating new worlds and continuing activities in the same world, much like a good DM does in a campaign.

I think there is a greater focus on amassing the largest amount of gold and power. Ego-stroking, perhpas. I much prefer the puzzles.... heck, I remember finally figuring out in MM1 that Og's puzzle referred to a Star Trek episode, and I found a friend who happened to have it on video, and who watched it for me. Talk about delayed gratification! There was nothing immediate about it, nothing at all. But boy, did it feel good when I got it done :D

Sadly, I don't have much time to game any more either, which is why I don't just pick up the next game that comes out. I anticipate I'll be playing it for a while to come, so it has to be good.

I'll respond to your other thread as well, and think about the good ol' days [img]smile.gif[/img]

Try playing folluot it is very cool game but kind of old.
alsoo try to play arcnum- it is very good game with many quest and game charectors.
it is allso multiy plable in the net .
it have difrants endins that dipands on how you go through the game.

have fun.
dragon2005.

All,

I doubt my posting absence has been painful to any but myself. Since my last post I've merely been lurking as I wait for DL to actually be released. When that happens I will have to upgrade my 4 year old system.

However, this question of why are the more recent games relatively poorer than the good old days forces my fingers to post once again [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Both Wyv and B are correct in their assessments but they don't quite capture the truth of the situation. I pray you give me the benefit of your time ... and here is a bit of background on myself:
I am 36 and have been gaming with P&P and computers (including NES and others) since I was 10. I have co-written my own P&P system with two other long-time friends inclusive of all levels of combat from single melee to massive armies and magic. Coupled with this a hugely flexible character development portion that allows any given player to tailor their character but limits their abilities. I'll now dispense with the self horn blowing because it truly isn't important to this discussion but I do hope it does add a bit of legitimacy to my opinion.

Both treatises so far posted have touched on the core of the problem: lack of imagination. I believe it is not the developers who have lost it but the players. Today's consumer of games like to have themselves spoonfed. A case in point: If you are a fan of the Lords of the Ring trilogy films but not the books, ask yourself why. JR's story is the classic good vs evil plot where good wins. His writing style spelled out the visions he wanted his readers to see in excruciating detail (I mean this in a good way). Because of this detail, the movies were able to capture his world and characters. Those who knew nothing of LoR before the films devoured them because of the sheer vision presented and the simple yet powerful story.

Those that have knowledge of LoR and stories of the like generally were able to see the depth of those films in their presentation...the FIRST time they saw them not the tenth.

I remember thinking on Fellowship something like "beautiful" but on the characters "hmmm...so far they don't quite have the right flavor". I also remember a post by either Willow or Wyv after Two Towers on the depth of the character development of Golem (and that the actor who portrayed him did a great job).

The point is this: current consumers of computer games a just plain LAZY. Thinking tends to not part of their desire when playing a game. Most 'newer' computer gamers I know cannot "think outside the box". As long as the game they are currently in has a distinct line to a goal, whatever it may be, they can play. As soon as a game throws them a curve (such as the drawbridge puzzle in Bane of the Cosmic Forge - W6) they generally give it up because it is "too hard".

B mentioned P&P gaming. In this form, the DM had to give the parameters and the "vision" for his players. The players then worked within the set to accomplish their goals - whether they be parallel or not. My goal as a DM was to 'set the stage' and then let the players determine what happens in the world. There was a lot of (some of you will get this) "making it up as I went along"...but it was never horrible [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Games today are not intended to force gamers to think...that might kill their attention span. Consider the 'end state' of most computer game characters: be the biggest, baddest, richest, most powerful whatever you can be ... oh, and by the way, beat the bad guy. Real gaming is ALL ABOUT beating the bad guy. Current games create "Monty Hall" situation (W&W included - see fletchery with enchanted Dragon arrows). What makes W&W so enjoyable is the character within the story. Most of us know the end state of the game...the fun is in getting there.

In short - laziness in the consumer produces companies that cater glitter to make gold.

Now that I've reread what I wrote above I can truly say that I am sad ... the loss of such enjoyable times attempting to 'figure it out' makes me hope DL is the answer to my gaming prayers. Otherwise, I may just have to find a group of P&P players and resurrect my world [img]smile.gif[/img] .

If you read this post this far, thank you...if not, sorry it was so long!

Regards

Well, you have been missed, Macoati... so welcome back [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

I agree with you in many ways. I remember the challenge of MM1, my first CRPG. It made me use my brain in ways that weren't spelled out in the game, and certainly weren't hinted at in the manual. Things like the magic number puzzle dungeon, the Astral Plane dungeon where the key to exit was written in the walls... those were great things.

Today, every answer is self-contained within the game so that you don't have to work that hard. I resent that in many ways, although I will be the first to say that with the Bridge puzzle in Skull Castle, I really, really would welcome an easy answer [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's a sad reflection on society (at least here in the US, and perhaps elsewhere) that we fear to challenge people to greater heights, afraid that they might step back from the edge and go elsewhere. But what of those who take the challenge, and succeed? There's nothing left for them, unfortunately.

I think that releasing a game like W&W along with a development kit is the way to go. You can address the masses with the easy stuff, and those who are *real* gamers will take the tools and create new worlds and new adventures. And if you were smart, you'd find a way to repackage those for the rest of the world as well...

I wait for DL as well, and I hope, too. I'm playing BG right now to get a feel for a different game (since I've had it for about three years). At least ranged weapons are useful there... :D

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. They are well appreciated, well-reasoned, and well-presented.

Thank you for both the welcome back and the kind words. I've often thought long about this subject - in both games and real life. I am not a teacher but have had the opportunity to teach groups of high-schoolers. The sad case of thought in the US - and maybe the world at large - is that people aren't taught HOW to think. I was a physics/math major in college...now I am an auditor (yes, my job is to spread hate and discontent - but I get to teach a bit too [img]smile.gif[/img] )

I once asked one of my professors "why do we have to learn this crap" and his reply was classic: "To make you think like a phisicist."

In my P&P games, I gave my players all the rope they needed...usually they succeeded in hanging something, sometimes themselves. The joy I had as a DM was in seeing my 'world' developed by the players. Todays games have almost no development by their players...because this would cost too much to implement. My sincere hope is that DWB (Wyv, Willow, yourself, Radek, or whoever you are - grin!) has frequented this board often and seen our collective desires...implemented them into DL ... and cause us to collectively thank him with our hard earned money!

I tell you what, B, I've got the system but not the expertise...wanna go into a partnership? [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

Most interesting -

I'm only semi-coherent, recovering from a severe cold - but I have a question for you providing I can figure out how to state it -

Do you see the time line which represents the deterioration of the quality and number of CRPGS offered to be inversely proportional to the increase of "strategy"/answer guides (and sites) on the market?

I hope that makes sense - Basically I think that when the developers started selling the solutions along side the game itself, games really fell apart. Puzzles didn't need to be logical or anything at all because players could find the answer - spoon fed.

Developers have been selling the answers for a long time, though. I remember reading somewhere that the publishers of Bard's Tale II knew that the game was being pirated when the number of hint guides sold was greater than the number of games sold...

On one hand, the hint guide is an additional source of revenue -- it makes a $40 game into a $60 game. On the other, it does take away the intellectual challenge in the game.

And a partnership could be interesting, Macoati. I've got a good sense for running a business and addressing those things, but I wouldn't count myself as a strong gaming developer at this point. I'd need to flesh that out, or more likely, find someone to do it.

Wyvern,

The correlation I see for the downfall of wonderfully frustrating yet completely intoxicating CRPG's is two fold - 1) When graphics became 'pretty' around the 386DX or so, most developers spent a lot of money going for the next 'cool new effect' and they dropped the story. 2) When answers/cheats/trainers/hacks/etc became available to the general populace every game became a "Monty Hall" campaign. (For those of you who don't know the Monty Hall reference with respect to D&D campaigns - it means getting rediculous loot for killing something like a wargur and/or jumping you 50 levels - also has a negative conotation on the DM of the game who won't let one of the characters die even if they really deserve it by being stupid - which is known as "DM insurance")

I remember when SNES came out and the games were still quite fun and the graphics were nice (not great) as well. Then the next generation of SNES games came out and the graphics were ten times better...but the games were not all that. I don't remember the dates but I expect around 1986 or 1987. We lost 'good developement' in the stand alone gaming systems but it remained in the computer world for at least another four or five years. My game references for these conclusions are: the Dragon Warrior series for NES...the orginal 2 Final Fantasy games for NES/SNES...and then the subsequent editions of FF to current.

In the computer world my reference is the Wizardry series. When Wizardry included 'modern' weapons in Crusaders, the game was ruined. Remember in W1 you had wireline graphics and you HAD to map it (damn scrolling cooridors [img]smile.gif[/img] ) In the subsequent editions the graphics gradually improved but were still basically wireline...just prettier until you hit W7 which became close to 3D and W8 (what 8 years after 7?) was 3D and quite 'pretty'. It still had several 'good things' but as soon as you throw anything into a game that "doesn't fit" into the genre (like lasers, fire arms, spaceships, etc unless that IS the setting) you lose the flavor the game. Firepower in a D&D or mideval settings should be MAGIC, ARMIES, and Siege Weapons. My true love of the CRPG world was the Wizardry series so I'm admitedly biased towards DWB and the like. However, I have found in almost all projects of his good gaming.

When the "answers" and the cheats hit the shelves or internet the challenge to 'figure it out' was lost. Think about what we can do to a new player of W&W...with one post we could destroy any of the mystery/fun. I believe that's why we follow unwritten rules and only make spoiling posts when necesary or with sufficient warning. Ask yourself why we do that and the answer is because we had so much fun in discovering the answer that we want new players to have that joy of a 'eureka moment'.

Anymore, when I play a new game, if it doesn't pique my interest early on even I will look for easy ways to finish it. I did this with Warcraft when I realized that it was basically the same thing over and over with a new thing thrown in roughly each scenario. I absolutely HATE a game that treats me like Warcraft...even though I've played them all except the newest version. I suppose my hope of a good game springs eternal [img]smile.gif[/img]

Bungleau,

My expertise is in mathematics and physics theory for the technical stuff. For CRPG's I'm more of an idea guy...the last language I actually did desent progamming for was Apple Basic [img]smile.gif[/img] (I think I just completely dated myself there) The pen and paper system I developed with my two friends IS beautiful and realistic. The joy of that system is that it alomost eliminates the mundane rolling for the DM and let's them concentrate on the campaign. It can be as simple as you want it or as complex...just depends on how many times you want to roll dice. So, to make this terribly long story longer, if you have a programmer...I have the system...and I'm not bad in business either [img]smile.gif[/img]

The sticking point now is the magic...it's only about 1/2 written even though the spells are known they have no flesh. We haven't worked on it for about 4 years since we don't play anymore. The system has been alpha and beta tested by several experienced gamers already so I know it works well...I just don't know how to put it into the magic box and let electrons do their dance.

WYVERN!!!! OMG!! I so owe you an email!


As for the question... I'd say try out Daggerfall.

OR

Albion. Damn that's an awesome game... as old as my bones but hey... still awesome ;)

Well, don't use the email address listed here - lol! I don't use it anymore! I suppose I should go ahead and change it but just haven't bothered. You can send me a private message on here, that still works.

Wyv

Early Might and Magic games were good. I still love Arx Fatalis, and Elder Scrolls: Arena. I played sacred a lot earlier and that was kinda nifty as well. [img]smile.gif[/img]

To finish the post, a huge hug to Wyvern and Bungleau!

Willow!!! [img]graemlins/thewave.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thewave.gif[/img]

Tons o' hugs your way! 'Tis truly a pleasure to see you here :D

I got down to the final battle in Arx and tried it about half a dozen times. When I get some patience back, I'll try it again... ;)

I'm currently going through Baldur's Gate (the original, with ToTSC). Fun, and different from W&W (and M&M). Probably worth a replay this time...

How is your daughter (Jackie, isn't it?)? And are you still salvaging the sick and injured in Toronto?

Interesting discussion but I wonder if it helps Creosote in his search for a new RPG? Our addiction to eye candy has created some problems with our favorite genre but sometimes when the developer knows what they are doing, these high tech games can be just as fund to play as some of the old school RPGs

I'm assuming you played Balders Gate, it was meh for me but many people have it at the top of their list of all time great RPGs.

Here are a couple I liked in the past 5 years or so.

1) Gothic 2. This game brought me back to CRPGs. It had an interesting story. Great NPCs. And a wonder to looks at. While I agree that our addiction to eye candy is responsible for the dearth of good RPGs, Gothic was truly a wonder. The game was told in 1st person perspective and the people in the game world actually did something while you were out adventuring. They slept, worked, and played. And they refused to let you loot their place if you were hard up for cash. The game also made Orcs and skeletins truly formidable monsters.

The game did have a couple of problems however. The interface was whacked. It was truly whacked in Gothic 1 and fixed up somewhat in 2 but it did take some getting used to. Also the game was unforgiving if you ventured off the beaten path. The game had monsteres that would kill you dead if a nube wandered to deep into the forest. And finally there was something about this game that made people either love it or hate it. I clearly fall into the prior but the game does have its detractors.

Still, I had a great time with this game. And if you can put in a few hours with this game and get used to the interface and not get so killed, I think you to will become a fan.

Arx Fatalis
Another game with a clumsy interface. By games end I still had not really mastered spell casting. But a very much fun game to play. It too, like the Gothics, is a single player, first perspective game. But this game is all played in an underground world. The opening scenes in the dungeon have some of the creepiest atmospheric sounds ever produced. Curiously though there is no gaming music. A lot of good NPC in this game also.

Anyway good luck finding a new RPG. If you wait a month or so, Dungeon Lords should be out.

Hello there people, I was reading this post earlier, before I joined, and I had a few thoughts that I wanted to add... or maybe just steal from other people.

First off, I've never had a console game because my parents decided that, growing up, it would stunt my brain, or something along those lines... We got a PC back in, oooh... '90 maybe? which means of course, DOS. There was a game called Dungeon Master, where you ran around cutting things up. Admittedly, I was about 8 at the time, and so I'd probably not like it now, but I loved it back then.

My brother was into P&P and I played as many of the Ian Livingstone books as I could get my hands on. Again, we're quite a long way in the past here.

More recently, a PC I had in '98 came with Might and Magic 6 installed on it, and I loved it. Great game. MM7 was pretty cool, but then it went downhill a bit, MM8 was finished in record time, and I can't remember if I even played MM9 - which shows how much i cared about it.

Anyway, onto the debate about the decline in society's ability to stand thought-provoking games. It seems to me not that people are not willing to take on challenging games/books/movies, but because they ARE challenging, the chance of making money off them are slimmer... it's main-streaming if ever there was. Books are a good indication of what's going on, I think. SF and Fantasy books were all fairly slim things back around 50 years ago, but about the time Frank Herbert's Dune series got into, I think it's 3rd book, they got fat, and stayed fat. Robert Jordan has written 10 volumes between 700-1200 pages of one story, and hasn't finished it yet, much to my dismay. Books the length of Lord of the Rings are fairly common-place, and I think that's a sign that people have more time and more desire to read huge books.

I think that that is an indication that people's tastes are getting well, more spaced out. If you had a multi-pointed star with all the different tastes in game, or any kind of entertainment, I think you'de find that the points are stretching farther and farther from the centre - EA, Westwood, etc. are forced to try and hold the middle ground, because that's where the most money is.

So why have computer games gone crap? Well, I'm sure that part of it is the eye-candy syndrome, game developers are being given new toys to play with, and so they are doing just that... the insane increase in game sizes - I remember Silver being insanely huge at about 1Gig, and now Battle for Middle Earth is something like 4Gigs - the better equiment gamers and developers have means that they get to play with their new toys. And so let them have their fun, once people start getting bored of the same old "real" graphics, they'll have to go back to clever games - with luck, we're just in a slump at the moment.

I suspect that we'll start getting independent companies making smaller-budget but more playable games in much the same way as sourceforge is making decent programs from people who just want them out there. We can all hope, eh?

While I was waiting for the train in Norwich earlier, it occured to me that just about all the old Lucasarts Games - Indiana Jones, Secret of Monkey island, etc. were great - I dunno if they're strictly RPG, the actual term seems to be a bit vague - but the Money Island games are great. I've played 1 - got stuck on the island, and STILL don't know where to go next, I've played the demo of 3, but never got round to the full game, and I've completed 4. Great games - they've got that bang-head-against-wall trial-and-error sort of chemistry. just try to make the abomination of nature in 4....madness...

Discworld Noir was an interesting game, though I don't think I completed it - I think I got distracted with real life, and I've moved country, so the CDs are back in the Middle East.