Well, I have now completed the game with both my "good" party (using only classes I consider "good," a very subjective system, not stealing from or killing the citizens of the Gael Serran) and my "evil" party (thanks for the quest item, now DIE!), and am now trying a solo run with the "Avatar" (society of Ultima lovers who just can't let go. Sad.) and I have a few miscellaneous questions, some of which might contain spoilers (or the answers might).

1) All my characters are considered "Neutral" no matter what virtuous or dastardly things they do. Even becoming the host of Lord Cet doesn't change this. Is there anything that changes "Neutral" status, or is that a feature that wasn't actually implemented in W&W.

2) Who can't be killed? I have not been able to harm the ghost of D'soto, even using black-fired weapons. Ditto for the gutted version of Gezzerad Ra; I guess I have to settle for chucking his heart over the side of the platform I found it on. (Liqnne the Lizzord Ninja: "gaah! I didn't want to pick this up. I was trying to crush it in my Kung Fu grip." Zha Qurdas the Ghourk Vampire Ranger: "Let me have it. I'm hungry ... Whoops! That's a slippery one--look, there it goes.") And Kerah skankers off before I can kill her, or I just can't hurt her at all. Bummer! Am I missing anybody?

3) I read Missy Hissy adventures (Yay!) wherein Kerah is proven to be most treacherous, but reading through some other posts there seems to be a general idea that she is not all sweetness and light. Apart from probably sending Kol to his death, can anyone tell me what makes Kerah naughty?

4) Oh, and could someone tell that ditz that I can't give her holy water while she's hovering overhead?!?

5) What does the Book of Misfortune do, if anything? I had two of these at one time. You can't read them and can't invoke them. Maybe the misfortune is lugging these things around when you could have a perfectly good Ankh there?

I'm sure I'll think of some other questions, but this is it for now. Avatar needs to try to force the eight abilities of W&W to fit into the 8 Virtues scheme!

1) Sadly the consequences promised early in the game were never incoporated in the final version. The characters' actions have absolutely no implications.

2) Some monsters are not meant to be killed - especially those that play a role later on or who are needed to complete a task significant for the whole quest. The spirit of Xydusa cannot be killed either since she is needed to open the serpent door. Anephas and Kerah cannot be killed at the first encounter either since they come back later on.

3) Nothing makes Kerah naughty. That was only Bungleau's invention. And it was only that which made me portray her in a similar - though not so bad - version in my Stackman story.

4) You can easily give her the water while she is flying - you just have to give her the water while jumping. It takes some timing - but it is not that difficult.

5) Apparently there were originally plans for a spell by the name of misfortune - perhaps even another spellrealm. Unfortunately it was never included in the final version, but the book remains.

[ 06-28-2004, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: bsftcs ]

Keep playing! Who knows... maybe you'll find the answers to these questions (and more [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

</font>[/QUOTE]Anephas can be killed, you've just got to be quick about it (pump yourself up on drugs (b-lust, h-might, &c) and hack away). He's worth about a third of a million, same as Cet.

"HOMM, where there's an artifact called an Ancient Fizbin of Misfortune"

I think I remember the Ancient Fizbin; ah, HOMM, how I miss thee (II & III)!

--OK, I thought I might be missing something with Kerah; because of the way text works (shooting up past what you can read in the text box, sometimes even when you've expanded the box), I tend to speed read for major points and thought I might have missed some subtle details.

OK, here's a couple more. Is it possible to kill Erasmedor when he's flying around the Shire? Extremely difficult, in any case, but is it even possible?

AND, am I supposed to hear speech for what the monsters and guild members are saying, or just for the narrator? I thought I remembered hearing the trolls when I was first playing, but that could have just been my overactive imagination.

Ok, since I'm still sort of in evil mode, I thought of some smart-alecky replies, for your amusement, I hope.

bsftcs said:

"1) Sadly the consequences promised early in the game were never incoporated in the final version. The characters' actions have absolutely no implications."

Not true! My evil party killed lots more, including some EXtremely Prestigeous individuals, and thus they were faced with tougher monsters. I'd not seen a Dumdee Oleoh or "????"ian Naga before.

"4) You can easily give her the water while she is flying - you just have to give her the water while jumping. It takes some timing - but it is not that difficult."

This was my EVIL party. I don't think we could be bother to hop around like toadies for THAT woman. We were going to leave her to her fate, except a certain door won't open until someone gets her Perrier.

By the way, are the Stackman Chronicles collected in one thread or do I just need to do some searching? And I would like to thank you, bsftcs, for your elegant solution to the Skull Castle Dungeon Bridge Puzzle, my absolutely most hated puzzle, up until I read your solution. (You didn't give it to me, you gave it to someone else some time ago, but I found it while looking for work arounds to that particular puzzle.)

Yet another 2 questions. What do folks think about the bard class? I didn't find it much fun; I had heard some people hate it, but others seemed to think it was a class that took some work to get right. The thing that did impress me was that the Bard can (potentially) use spells from lots of different books; on the other hand, so can a well-rounded spellcaster.

#2: If the Rogue school doesn't (as far as I can tell) teach 2nd weapon skill, why do they sell 2nd handed weapons? Seems like they don't do a Rogue or Bard much good.

Okay, lessee...

I've never tried icing Erathsmedor when he was flying. He tends to have a short attention span... breathe on you once or twice, and then fly away. You'd probably have to stay in the outdoors until you killed him, which could take forever (hey, come back here so I can hit you!)

As for speech, there's none in the towns, but most of the beasties will talk to you chit chit! Ya pays for pies! It can get somewhat boring after a while Drop yer weapons. Yer outnumbered!, but you can get used to it Me nicks and stones... If you're not hearing anything outside the towns, check your sound level settings, and then look into your drivers. You should be hearing something.

As for the implications, I almost always see dumdee oleohs in the pyramid area. The naga you refer to sounds familiar, but I haven't seen one in a long while. There truly is no consequence to your actions in the game, unfortunately...

Stackman's chronicles are not in one thread yet... we're looking at that. If you're into that kind of reading, be sure to search for Radek's stories about Tia and his adventures through the Gael Serran. There's interesting stuff in there as well...

I don't particularly care for bards, and perhaps I just need to play one through to completion. The musical instruments just don't seem to do it for me... at least, not as well as sword, spear, and staff do... [img]smile.gif[/img]

And as for the rogues, you know us netherworldly types... just because we don't use something doesn't mean we can't make a profit on it, does it? :D [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img]

Good points! You (as well as others) always make it a joy to travel in the GS, Bungleau. I'm having a great time with The Avatar. I'm not up to doing a story, but I think tomorrow I will post a rambling chronicle of his adventures and some of the funny things he has encountered on the way. For one: early in his career, while still a mere Warrior, the Avatar realized he needed some cash, and he discovered he couldn't use lockpicks, so he decided he would just, you know, -hock- one of H'thark's picks. Hey, H probably only needed one, and in any case, Avatar could by it back long before he reached the Serpent Temple.

Later, while scoping out an isolated windmill, the Avatar was attacked by a Lake Nymph. Her remains turned up lock picks. The Avatar searched his pack for the new picks, unable to find them, until he looked and saw he now had 3 H'thark's lockpicks! Uncanny!

1. I've seen a post that states that if you do something, your party becomes "evil". Search the forum. I've never been evil so that I don't know.
At any rate, your evilness has no consequences. Most likely, the good-neutral-evil orientation was planned but not implemented in the game.

2. Erathsmedor cannot be killed, harmed, or even Vanished while it is flying in the exterior. Anephas can be killed in the Cet's room when you side with Cet - but only with a black flame boosted Mavin Sword of Staff of Death. Note: Anephas is more than 800 000 XP, he is worth of much more XP than Cet :D
I've seen a post (it's somewhere on this forum) with instructions how to kill G'Ezzered Ra. You must get him out of his room because he is immune to anything there. I've never tried it.
Other "monsters" that cannot be killed or even harmed: Ghost of Nivius, all Oracles. Kerah and Kol are cheating: Kerah can lose HP but only to a certain level, then she becomes immune to anything even if you will be getting messages "Kerah was hit for nnn HP". Kol is cheating from the beginning. He is immune to anything even if you will be getting messages "Kol was hit for nnn HP".

3. Hmmm, Kerah? Evil? Why?

4. Bsftcs' solution seems to be the only solution of giving the Holy Water to the flying Kerah.

5. Book of Misfortune does nothing. Perhaps, there was a spell named Misfortune planned during the game development but it wasn't implemented.
Misfortune is a "level 1 spell" so that the book isn't worthy to pick.

6. Bard isn't my favorite class. I haven't detected any special feature of a bard worth of mentioning. But bard seems to be the only class that can gain Trickery trait. The trait is useful. Therefore:
1. Pretend to change role to a Bard.
2. Get the Scroll of Trickery. Give it to a mule in the inn and cancel Bard training.
3. Wait until you reach level 5 in Pawn Shop and until you get training rights there.
4. When you decide to change role to anything, become a Bard first (by means of the previously gained scroll), get the Trickery trait and then change role again to the decided role without leveling up as a Bard. This will block the Music skill so that it won't appear on your skill list.

7. It's a flaw in the game logic. Use Guild Hopping and join the Warriors Guild or Bushi Dojo. They teach 2nd Weapon skill.

Hey - we are some here who happen to like bards. ;)

Originally plans were that the Stackman story should be posted in Bungleau's thread as well, but now we are not so sure anymore. Anyway I will be posting an index shortly. In any case one of following three things are going to happen: 1) The story is posted in Bungleau's thread. 2) The story will be posted in its own thread. 3) The index will be made into a sticky.

And yes, I think the bridge puzzle solution is very good too. But the full credits go to Radek. It is his solution.

In my game it is impossible to hurt Anephas in any possible way at the first encounter (both on the altar and in the monkey chute) - the same as is the case with Kol.

[ 06-29-2004, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: bsftcs ]

Oops! Sorry about the miscredit, Radek. I have noticed I tend to get you and bsftcs confused solely because you are both Quintessons.

Hey, I have another question. Is it possible to get back into Signeur Pastolio's room. It looks like there is a passage leading back there but it is blocked ala the Bronze Dragon passage, except wearing Dragon Plate doesn't help.

It is not a secret barrier that is blocking you, it is because the tunnel is too narrow. Use your smallest character and wriggle through - then you should be able to get to his door. However it cannot open. Also you should be prepared to teleport back since one cannot always get back out of the tunnel even if one could get in.

Pastollio is one of the few people in the game that cannot be killed. He does not even get angry if one casts harmful spells against him.

I have tried using the usual teleportation trick on the room. (Cast portal on a roach or a rat or whatever is crawling in a room that one cannot reach, kill the creature if it still remains in the portal spot, and then teleport to the spot - that is a good way of entering barred rooms). But since Pastollio cannot be killed he can never be removed from the teleportation spot. Furthermore there are never any roaches or rats in his room. And I have also tried to summon a creature on him in order to create the portal on the creature and then kill it. That does not work either.

So basically: Pastollio's room is inaccessible. :(

Hmmm...I thought I remembered fireballing him to death through the grate and him dropping a key, which I could not get. Well, I probably got confused what with all the people I was unjustly killing in that evil game. Maybe I should make a trip back with Lord Cet and Co. to see if Pastolio is still there.

A problem I'm coming up on is that so far I have one saved game for each party that has completed the game. Soon there won't be enough slots. :( I don't know why I'm holdin on to them, though; the only idea I have is to reset adventures and see how fast I can complete only the necessary quests to finish the game.

I've run into that same problem, Dang [img]smile.gif[/img] Sooner or later, you run out of slots...

You might back up your savegame directory and roster.dat files and create new ones. That would let you start all over from scratch [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hmmm... toasting senior pastor oleo... methinks that might prevent you from entering (or exiting!) the stout mines... but I've never tried it :(

Make a copy your "save" folder, Dang -- I've got LOTS of savegames, dating back several years. Just make sure never to copy over something you've not backed up.

BTW, my record from "Something has happened... Something EVIL" to Cet's death, with a new, solo character, and no gold cheating/enchanted weapons/gear from previous games/&tc is 2 hours 45 minutes. The guy sucked and barely made it, but it was cool :D

P.S. I obviously never talked to Sabastio, or you'd have to add another half hour to that time...

Trust me - Pastollio is untouchable. :D

Yeah, I must have been dreaming. Not surprising, since I have at least one dream a night that is somehow W&W related. Hmm, maybe it's a case of, "Yeah, sure Freyedies is the token King of the Stouts, but who do you think is the REAL power behind the throne? Inaccessible, invincible, and with the power to allow or deny entry to the Mines..."

Couple of funny stories about the great Stout Mine Massacre: I highly suspected that if I killed Freyedies before getting him to make the Dragon Armor, I would conveniently find one in his chamber, but, coward that I am, I went ahead and got the 2 ore-forged Dragon Armors. Sure enough, there was (more than one, I think) Dragon Armor in the King's Chamber. The funny thing was that I was playing that party with only "class-appropriate" arms and armor--Ninja only wore ninja outfit, Assassin ditto, Samurai wore Samurai armor--only the Barbarian wore Dragon Plate. Oh, well, lots more $$

The second thing was that I got Krakoendon, but the only guy with mace skill was now a Monk. Still, I decided to keep Krakoendon and have him fight with it occassionally. Difficult, because he seemed to default to kung fu, as K goes in the 2nd weapon slot. Anyway, one fight I accidentally had Father Hands attack something that was out of range, and he threw Krakoendon ... after a few moments it came back and he caught it. So I made occasional use of flying hammer attacks until I was in the Boogre Caves, fighting the plants guarding the Aku idol chamber. I threw K and it didn't come back ... and I couldn't find it after the battle. "You had a priceless Dwarve--I mean Stout heirloom, handed down from generation to generation, and you threw it away?!?" :oops:

I have already made a back up of my save game folder, back when I wasn't sure exactly how the inn roster worked. It turned out to work how I thought, but I didn't want to take any chances as I was going to erase some of my beloved first party characters to make room for new blood and I have been burned before (see my profile, and my reason for joining IW).

I am really enjoying the solo game. In a lot of ways W&W seems designed to be a solo game. It certainly makes me a lot pickier about what loot I take up. [img]smile.gif[/img] On the other hand, some fights are a lot easier (I whacked Xydusa in about half the clicks it takes with a party of 6), some quests are a lot easier to fulfill (getting Serpin coins for 4 Thieves guilders, and having enough to open the coin-slot doors, can take a lot of dead Serpent cultists), you don't have to decide who should get that special ability, and you can pretty much strip-mine classes. (Avatar was a L1 Samurai with only the Burn spell before he killed any of the salads outside Shurugeon; having fought only some Swamp Mucks before he faced the salads, he leveled up fast enough to kill the last two with burning haze.) I keep thinking (hoping) I am going to run out of ways to make this game interesting, but so far, nope. Right now I'm thinking up various "theme parties" that I will probably put together and then abandon.

Edit: Whoa, I'm a Magister!

[ 06-30-2004, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Dang ]

It really is fun to play solo [img]smile.gif[/img] About the only knock on a solo game is that you get six times the XP, so you level up six times faster. But aside from that... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Don't forget my favorite salad-cooking spell -- flame drop :D As effective as haze or burn, but it keeps on giving... and giving... and giving... It's also very useful on the walking funguses later on ;)

What kind of theme parties are you thinking of? I believe someone started an LOTR party... what others come to mind?

Oh, actually flamedrop was the doom of the first 2 salads...well, flame drop and a few short stabs from Shinwiki's spear (incidentally, I was never able to hit monsters from horseback before I used the spear ... another realistic detail). BTW, I have used Shinwiki's spear from the time I got it--I NEVER used it before. It is pretty good, and fast.

I seem to remember that LOTR party, I was reading about it not too long ago, but I think whoever started it had a hard drive crash. I don't really want to do LOTR, partly because I already did one in W8 (in IronMan, and they died in a big battle toward the end, but because of my fear of having saved games inadvertently wiped out, I have them saved way back in their careers, but I'm pretty wiped out with W8, so I don't think I'll go back to it).

Some of the parties I have been thinking of:

Vanilla Party: One Warrior, one Wizard, One Rogue and One Priest. No advancing to better classes. The main problem I see with this is that it would probably be pretty boring, but I think it might be interesting to try winning with the base classes.

D&D: the cartoon, that is. I think I'd need to use an editor to pull this one off. In case you don't remember, the main characters are:

1) Hank, Ranger, magic bow that shoots fire arrows that can take different shapes.

2) Diana, Acrobat, staff, or javelin, does crazy gymnastics

3) Eric, Cavalier, has a magic shield

4) Sheila, Thief, cloak of invisibility & never seems to steal anything

5) Bobby, Barbarian, club that causes minor earthquakes

6) Presto, Magician, magic hat that he can create just about anything from.

This theme party is pretty impossible, also they shouldn't kill anything, so they wouldn't get much xp, but I thinking about trying to start it and see where it goes from there.

The last one I've seriously been thinking about is a campaign where I have 15 characters (that's the max allowable in the inn, I think) all going on adventures, some being on vacation and not available. The main problem I see with this is that if I want any of them to have good guild standing I have to have all of them sign up for a quest, and then pick the ones to go on the quest. That's a lot of signing in and out of the party, and surely some will fall behind in xp and guild rankings. Long after stopping DMing D&D type games, I have worked on a gaming world where there would be a lot of characters, and some would be necessary for certain adventures, whereas at other times they might not be needed and would stay in town, which is kind of why I want to do the 15-adventurer team theme.

Hmmm.... your "characters in and out" party sounds like... Might & Magic 2, or perhaps 3, where you had to switch people in and out. Only knights could go for the super knight promotion, for example.

Your D&D party sounds interesting [img]smile.gif[/img] Would you make them all human, or explore the races a little?

And your basic party also sounds challenging. That was the idea behind the Den of Thieves game I played -- all rogues except one who became an assassin. I think I let a zenmaster and valkyrie in at the end of the game as well. It's harder, especially in the beginning game, but by the end of the game, it's a breeze.

The main thing is to have fun doing it, which I have done several times over. I hope you enjoy it immensely, and do keep us informed of your progress [img]smile.gif[/img]

I wonder ... M&M 2, I don't think I ever played ... was that the one with the big intro in the rulebook about all the things that had happened throughout the ages, and you were supposed to go back in time to fix things? I didn't start playing until 4 or 5, whichever were the ones you could combine to create the World of Xeen. I totally loved that one, but when I went back to play M&M 1 it seemed too out-of-date to hold my interest. 3 I liked, and that was one where you collected certain magic orbs and could decide to give them to the good, neutral, or evil king ... anyway.

And I wanted to say I haven't responded before this because I went home with my sister for the 4th of July weekend, so I haven't had W&W on my mind ... much. I'm still currently doing the Avatar, and from the 1st I've been wanting to make him be every class, except the ones he couldn't be (Wizard, Priest, and Rogue, since he started as a Warrior, and Valkyrie, since he's male.) Before falling asleep last night, I was making a list of all the classes, which one's he's already done, and what should be next.

As for the D&D party, I hadn't even thought of making any of them other than human. I've already played every Clan in the game, so that wouldn't be a factor, and as people have already pointed out, there isn't --that-- much difference between the clans. I also came up with a weak excuse for them not having their magic items, and killing things. I couldn't remember all of the characters when I started this idea, so I looked it up online. If the cartoon hadn't been cancelled, the characters were supposed to enter a new world, where they would rely more on their abilities than on their items. Sound like someplace we know?

But, I also have a couple of other games that are calling me right now. When I went to my parents' house, I pulled a Wizardry 7 save game that has been there for quite some time onto a disk, and I intend to import it to Wizardry 8. And, I am a big fan of the superhero game Freedom Force, and a couple new modules have come out. So I might bid adieu to the Gael Serran for awhile. Hey, variety is the spice of life, right?

Yep, the basic party could be fun ... I'll just have to see how I feel after I get done with the Avatar. I'm going on vacation with my folks in 2 weeks, so gaming will be on hiatus for awhile anyway.

Thanks for your interest in my adventures, and all your help, and I will try to post some details of the Avatar's adventures if I can stop playing long enough! I also wanted to tell you that one of the things I liked about Missy Hissy's adventures were that they were kind of a walk through, but didn't really give away many details about how to complete various missions. Ciao!

If you need a walkthrough you will probably have noticed that my Stackman Saga now comes complete with an index? :D

Yes, and I am looking forward to reading it. [img]smile.gif[/img]