Hi Everyone!

You have all been so cordial and helpful to me and other BG2ers who have taken up this game that I'm throwing myself at your feet and begging to be reassured that I can in fact play and finish Wizards and Warriors without heaving the cd out the window in frustration..*heavy sigh*

I tried playing a little of the game just to get a feel for W & W and boy I have to say that the interface and combat are just plain disappointing!

Sorry, but I find the first person view is ok, with one fatal flaw- ALL 6 characters appear to be looking through my one set of eyes and are either invisible to me, or in a conga line behind me as we must all do everything together! If I pan 180 degrees they do it too and I can't see the group I'm adventuring with! Really spoils the 'reality' feel of it which would be good with the nicely done terrain and first person perspective. I'd expect to see the other 5 no matter which "persona" I was using as the lead. That would enhance the experience a hundred fold for me.

Combat....oh boy... I have a lot of trouble with this too. All six of us are in a line and taking turns at whatever *I* target? ALL of us after one lousy bat? Instead of individually targeting separate enemies when needed? YIKES...that is something that really takes away from my enjoyment of the game so far. Any hints, tips and advice would be most welcome, by the way! I may just not understand how it works yet so help?!...sigh...

Is there a pause option? I had started a game for fun and didn't realize it was all routinely saved (not a bad thing, just unexpected) and really wish I could have started a game totally from scratch again, but could only "revert" to a previous state...sigh... Is there a way to start completely from scratch like when you load the software the first time? (I reloaded but no dice...which files would one remove to get the 'saved game' out?!)

And the interface is just plain awkward! *BIG SIGH* I am going to persevere, though. I think the story line looks good (even so close to the beginning) and the villages have that 'quaint adventuring' feel to them, at least what I've seen of them in my brief sojourn.

I will add that I am not an "old gamer" and those old dos style games weren't on my agenda so maybe I am not as fond of the W&W as others are because there's not one whit of nostalgia there when I play it? That and my first crpgs were Infinity Engine games (IWD, BG1 BG2). Oh well...I'm going to continue, albeit not in a hurry, as I still have my beloved BG2 games going and ToB is coming and maybe Neverwinter Nights which I know almost nothing about...sigh...

The W & W manual wasn't very helpful. http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif (Most game manuals are less than stellar I suppose- still this one gets a great big pfffft from me!)

Anyone who can offer suggestions for helping me get better acquainted with the interface or combat or just to feel more into the game- please offer them! They'll be greatfully accepted.


Um... if you throw things at me... make 'em soft, I bruise easily http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Cloudy

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http://publish.hometown.aol.com/tobb...s/bestow~1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight
Heart Mind Soul Forever



[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 04-29-2001).]

Welcome!

Don't feel bad about the interface, Cloudbringer, we all admit that it could use some improvement.

I like the idea of the conga line. Sometimes I felt as if my wizard was doing the limbo with his staff instead of hitting someone with it.

I suppose that this type of interface only shows the perspective of the controller rather than each of the characters because of programming. Some of the first games that used this type of interface were limited by the type of computers and the memory and hard drive space available back in the dark ages. (About the time when these adventures took place in REAL LIFE.) One of the first games I saw from this perspective was Dungeon Master in which it was very clear that you were controlling the characters as a group, not as individuals. I, too, would like better control and or view of my characters, but, alas, it is not to be.

As for the combat, each character can target different monsters if there are more than one monster on the screen at a time. Since, in turn based mode, combat pauses after each action to give you time to turn or ready a spell, all you need to do is target a different monster when the next character's turn is up. You will find that if the monster is off center, the view will switch to that character's viewpoint as he or she swings. This is often funny when the pixie's turn comes around because the screen jumps to fit his or her perspective.

There is a pause button. "P" does pause the game, both when in combat as well as when exploring.

There is no easy way to start over from scratch. That was one of my big frustrations when I first started the game. I decided to try the partial walkthru file just to see what it did. My first frustration was that I didn't have enough money to buy the things that the "walkthru" told me to buy. At first I thought I had done something wrong and wanted to start over from scratch. It tooke me a while to figure it out.
First, you have to be in a town. (Valia will do, but you can start over from any of the three towns.[I know you haven't seen the other two yet.]) When you are in town, you can click on the computer icon to change settings. There is a button there to "Reset Adventure." Clicking this will reset the quests, and basically take you back to the start of the game. The only thing it doesn't do is reset your characters. You can take your characters back through the game with just about everything they had before and with all the experience and hit point and equipment that they had before. If you truly want to start over, you will have to go to the inn and delete the characters.
One way to delete the save files would be to save over an old one. If you are familiar with the folders on your hard drive, you can find the files under the SAVEGAME directory under the the Wizards and Warriors directory. Deleting the file will delete the save game.

Good Luck!

Knarfling

And Cloudy - a good tip for early combat, have your mages learn the Flamedrop spell - if you cast this on one of the central bats / piranhas / worgurs etc you can take down several of then with one or two castings. Always be prepared to back up slightly if you are casting on a creature up very close, because your party can get hurt by the area effect. Early combat isn't very easy, the spellcasters have a better time of it early. The fighters come more into there own down the track.

See http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif never threw anything but hints - no bruises from Davr http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/castletainly/gifs/ps17.gif
Nordom, cousin to Davros

Cloudy: Going back to the village and choosing "Reset Adventures" from the Games Option menu (the little computer icon in the lower left corner) is the way to start a brand new game. Your characters will be in the Inn. You can either reuse them or delete them (add them to the party and then right-click on them and choose "DELETE PC" and then roll some more up.

The 1st person interface "for all" is a hallmark of classic 1st person gaming. It can be maddening for anyone used to the 3rd person gaming point of view. On the other hand, those of us who grew up with that interface find the 3/4 down look on your PC's maddening as well, especially when they get in each others' way. Bethesda's "Elder Scrolls" series solved the 1st person anomaly by having only one PC for the game.

You can target different monsters...you just have to keep clicking on whichever one you want to target. If you have 3 bats attacking, have one of the characters click on the first one, then when it switches to the next character, click on another bat if you want to work on taking it down, too.

Knarfling already solved the "P" option. Note the pausing does NOT stop game time.

Also: when you come across NPC's, TALK TO THEM! Using every possible keyword you can think of, even ones that aren't in the list. They have a wealth of information about the game.

And join as many guilds as you can in the beginning. There are legitimate ways to make money. For some reason, you can buy arrows cheaper than you sell them, so buying and selling arrows repeatedly is a way to make quick cash. There is the Inn Gold Cheat if you don't want to wait around that long, but if you don't want to exploit that "bug", there are other ways.

Good luck! Let us know how you fare. And I understand well your frustration. I have the same frustration with the 3/4 view games.

-Sazerac

Hmm..wait a sec..My bro really wants me to buy this game so he can play it to http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif

But, from what I've heard here, it seems that only 1 person can have a game going at a time..Man, why couldn't it be more like Infinity Engine games in that respect? =/

[This message has been edited by Therro (edited 04-29-2001).]

You can have more than one player. You just have to use the save games and never leave the game while in town.
Start an adventure, go out of town and save. Reset adventure. Build a new party (I think you can have up to 15 characters) and start a new adventure, saving the game in another slot.

Regarding the Snakeskin trait, look at Ladybug post. You can have it at Snake Temple.

[This message has been edited by Deco (edited 04-29-2001).]

ooOOoo I get it http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

So...what happens when you leave the game from a town?

Hiya Cloudy! Sorry this took so long, but I am still having trouble getting on the forum since I got back from vacation. Nice to see you here! http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

Now about playing WW. . .just think of it this way, you are the only one, you just have 6 personalities and lives! So you need to take care of each one of them, each is equally important.

Here's the thing, it is different from BG, that's all. You will like it just as well, it only takes a little time to get use to it. I actually like it better now. But you may not. All I'm saying is, don't give up without giving it a fair chance, it is a GREAT game and so much to it and so many things to do and see! It might seem a little more difficult at first, but think of it as a challenge. Believe me, you can do it and you will be glad you did.

Stay close so we can help when you need us! And keep us informed of your progress please. God speed to you and your party.

Mammawlin http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...ievalsmile.gif


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mammaw's know all, see all, tell nothing

Therro: I think what Deco meant was that you must make sure you save outside of a town before leaving the game. You can leave a game from anywhere, in town or out, but it's best to do so outside so you'll have the most recent save.

-Sazerac

Whoa! I am just checking in at almost 1 am and must go to slumberland. But I Promsise to read EVERYTHING tomorrow! You people are so nice and helpful! http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

Cloudy

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http://publish.hometown.aol.com/tobb...s/bestow~1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight
Heart Mind Soul Forever

I would like to do a little comparison. Between an RPG and W&W. Yeap! Exactly between these two!

1. In an RPG, we pick up items from the ground. We usually select which ones we want to pick up. In a hack'n'slash affair, we run through items. In W&W, running through an item is the only method that works. Trying to pick up items, we find out that the items have too small active areas and are often hard to pick up. Not speaking about the Crazy Dance.
2. If an RPG supposes falls from heights, it contains some Feather Fall like spell. A Doom contains nothing like that. W&W does not either.
3. An interaction between characters is common in RPGs. It is unknown in Duke Nukems of all kind, Duke Nukem interacts by means of his bazooka only. Also, it is implemented terribly wrong way in W&W. Every interaction is a pain. You must wait for years until the interaction is over and watch the strange Lambada performed by the actors. Also, you have to pray for not being killed until the "conversation" is over.
4. You can be attacked during a dialogue and during leveling up in W&W. Well, dialogues are unknown in Quakes, leveling up usually means using an elevator to the next floor in Dooms, so why cannot you be attacked?
5. Have you noticed that "reset adventures" is the common way of restarting the game in the hack'n'slash stupidities?
6. Pausing the game is rather unknown in Dooms. Also, it is implemented badly in W&W: the time isn't stopped when you pause the game.
7. Resting is unknown in Duke Nukems. Duke Nukem never rests! Your characters do not rest in W&W either. Even if the game logic requires the opposite (day-night cycle).
8. Let us note the location of silly bugs in W&W: spells, magic items, money, quests, interaction, personal screens (skills, etc.) - all these areas are unknown in Quakes...

We see the following possibilities:
1. W&W was given to a wrong realization team. The team was able to create a Quake but not an RPG.
2. It was an intent to create a hack'n'slash affair that pretends to be an RPG.
3. It was both to some extent.
I think we can omit the first possibility. Wasn't there anyone who screamed NOOOO!!! This was not what we wanted!! Therefore, we are left with possibilities 2 and 3. I think 3 is correct. Perhaps, the intent was to atract Quake players. How silly! The Quake players will never play W&W. On the other hand, the RPG fans will be disgusted and post things like this topics.

OoOoH! So Saz, I guess what your saying is that you cant save in the town?

Oh..and I'm buying it today, along with a new set of surround sound speakers /w subwoofer, more Memory! (128mb) and a kickass digital mouse http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

*Rubs his hands in anticipation*

Everyone- thanks for thourough answers! And for making me feel a bit less stupid about the game!

Knarfling (or anyone else!)- So if I am in a battle (only ones I've done are on the way to the cemetery and right inside) nothing happens between turns of the pc's? See, what confused me is that I didn't know that you had to use each character in turn...(remember...BG2 transplant here! in that game you choose your pc/npc anytime you want in any order and they attack simultaneously... bit more realistic). Anyway, I had trouble with characters being injured or killed and just couldn't see what was attacking them because by the time I figured out who was hurt it was someone elses turn to be up and I couldn't SEE from the injured person's pt of view...sigh Can you skip a character if you don't want to use them? How would you do that?


More later...lunch is almost over!

Cloudy

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http://publish.hometown.aol.com/tobb...s/bestow~1.jpg Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight
Heart Mind Soul Forever

[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 04-30-2001).]

Yep, Cloudy, you got it! The characters proceed one in turn. If you want to skip a character, press the spacebar. It should go to the next one in line. Or just click on the character portrait on the right whom you wish to go next. Eventually it will all come back around again. Also, note that some characters will get to attack more than others, depending on their speed rating or what the last action they took (a wizard, for example, who just cast "Firestorm" is going to have to wait a few rounds to recover from that while in the heat of battle!)

Therro: Best thing to do is save just outside the city gate. That way you have a quick dash back in in case anything is menacing you. Going back to town also immediately replenishes all mana points (but you'll have to be healed at a temple or use a healing potion if your HP is down).

-Sazerac

Radek: Having played neither Quake nor Duke Nukem (and having no desire to do so), I cannot comment on the similarities in those games.

However, I can assure you that the peculiarites of Wizards and Warriors are common to all "old-style" first person RPG's from the 80's and early 90's. The Sir-Tech Wizardry series is almost identical to Wizards and Warrior's style, as is the Might and Magic series, with some differences. These are commonly accepted as RPG's, as are the Infinity-engine type games. Bethesda's "Daggerfall" also had several of these features that you attribute to "hack n' slash."

Without a doubt, there are several bugs that would earn W&W a "B" rating rather than an "A" rating...the ridiculous "splat" down the ladders, the being attacked during a level up (BTW, you can level up in a TOWN as well and not be attacked!). But there are plenty of people who do enjoy the game (as this forum indicates) and are not "disgusted" with it as you claim to be.

One other thing: if you don't like a game, don't play it! I quit "Darkstone" after the first 3 hours because of that. Couldn't stand it. However, I also respect that there's probably quite a few people out there who do like the game as well. It's just a personal preference on my part.

-Sazerac

Cloudy, I edited the options for the hot keys to make the space bar the pause bar (ie that 'other' game we play) and made the enter key my personal skip key. Just thought I would throw that in there . . .

BK

Thank you, BK, for bringing up something that I had forgotten to mention...you CAN edit the keys in W&W to your own preferences. It's in the Options menu.

-Saz

Heh..sorry for botherin you about this again Saz, but if your afraid of being menaced why dont you save in town? http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Or, can you simply not save in town and thats why you recommended saving at the gate? http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Therro: you can't save in town. You can reload a previous saved game from town, but can't save there. Just outside the town gate is a good idea; also, using another game slot just outside a main quest dungeon is another.

-Sazerac

Hi everyone! Well, as my friends know, I am a champion at Duke Nukem and play on "Damn I'm Good" setting http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif. . . and I love Wizards and Warriors. I also have played Doom, Blood, Star Wars, Jedi Knight and other "KILL" games. It is just a matter of tastes probably, and patience maybe. WW is a different game, a wonderfully different game! I recommend it highly and as much as I love the game, I love this forum too! All opinions count and are important and are welcomed. So Cloudy, we are all waiting to see how you end up dealing with WW - whatever it is, we welcome your input and appreciate you sharing with us. See ya!
http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...ievalsmile.gif
Mammawlin

Just wanted to clarify on Saving while in town.

Technically, you do not have to save while in town, because everything you do is "saved" already. There is no option to save, the disk button loads a new game instead of saving. However, if you quit while in town, when you load the game again and go to the inn, your characters and your game should be just as you left them when you quit. For example, If one of my characters buys an item, then I quit the game, the next time I load the game I can just go to the Inn and he will have that item in inventory.

There are a couple of problems with this tho. If I quit while in town, then load a previously saved game, there is no way to get back what I had done. Also, there are times when equipment has dissappeared when I have done this. I agree with Sazerac's recommendation. Leave town, then save. Your characters will thank you for it.

Knarfling

Thank you for clarifying that, Knarfling. The fact is, the Inn is very bad about "gobbling" things up, including valuable quest items (like the Mavin sword itself!) On the other hand, it's been known to grant great boons (like unlimited gold). So it's a grab bag. I'd say use it with trepidation.

-Sazerac

ooOOoo Thanks Saz! I get it now!

Oh..I got it and I'm installing it as I type this..plus I got my new optical mouse, speakers, and mem set up too! http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Sazerac,
really, I do not like the game at present. Nevertheless, I want to see whether am I right with my judgment. Perhaps I am not, I will see.
As far as the realization is concerned, even the diluvial games solved their problems much better than W&W. The problem is not in features, the problem is in their implementation. You cannot compare M&M or TES with W&W. The first ones solved their problems far better way than the last one. Why? Why do only the "action" elements work somehow in W&W? Why are many of them implemented at all if they are completely unusable in an RPG? An example: picking up items by running through them. This is functional in a Doom because the items are always ammo for your pocket nuke launcher, but this is not functional in an RPG. That's exactly what is irritating me: you run into serious troubles every time you want to do something "non-action" - level up, cast a non-offensive spell, get a quest and so on. Fighting monsters works. Casting offensive magic works.
Running through dungeons and clicking levers work.