It strikes me as rather odd that a number of W&W reviews that I've come across are rather negative, and few rate the game highly. Despite a multitude of minor annoyances in the game, it's still the best and most immersive crpg I've ever played - but I seem to be in a minority. Most reviewers wax lyrical over the supposedly etherial beauty of BG2 and Torment, and claim that they have 'set new standards for the genre'. I beg to differ. I *loved* the original BG, and played it to death - but Bioware should have let the Stupidity Engine die. Instead they just keep pumping out more of the same with a few bells and whistles - *yawn*. BG was more of a fantasy tactical combat game than a rpg, and the sequels just delivered more of the same, with new annoyances to add to the old ones. No D&D game should ever allow characters to rise above level ten, where the whole game system just collapses in a horrifically unbalanced heap.
But that seems to be what the public wants - Diablo 2, BG2 etc. So what's the future of the immersive single -player, first-person crpg? Is it going to become a small niche market dominated by primative shareware products, while the mass market laps up the latest over-hyped D&D puke? The M&M and Wizardry series' seem to be in limbo, and their developers are having serious problems. I doubt that HP have even come close to covering the development costs for W&W, and the community is tiny. About the only 'real' crpg on the horizon is Morrowind, and it remains to be seen if it will sell well enough to cover costs, let alone make publishers rich. Has there been a quality first person crpg in recent years that was financially successful?
I'm concerned about the hijacking of the genre and it's devolution into mass-market, consolish mediocrity, and even moreso at the collective attitude of the press. Can you imagine if food critics applauded how McCrapburgers had redefined the restaurant industry, and that 'real' restaurants were just lame throwbacks that should get with the program? That's how I feel about the gaming press response to BG2/D2 vs. W&W.
*sigh*

Nicely said, Cygoth!

I have long had issues with the professional game reviewers. Of course as with any reviewer you have to have some understanding of "where they are coming from " to put any perspective on their reviews. Even so, too many of them seem to be more inclined to show off how refined/elitest they are and rarely do their likes and dislikes match my own. The media in general is often like this. A few people are in a position to make critiques which affect markets and the actual people who make up the market don't have a fair opportunity to voice their opinions or counter act the damage done by the reviewers. The other unfair aspect is that reviews are written with a deadline - wanting to appear when the game goes on the market or even before which does not give the reviewer any time to really play the game longer, reconsider their critique or take a look at what the real public reaction to the game is. A reviewer who had to read this board and THEN write a review of W&W would have written a much different review.

Wyv

Most fun I have had since Crusaders of the Dark Savant

Anyone know any recommended games like this or Crusaders?

Thanks!
Gef

taking a bit of time away from EQ

I think you said it all and know the answer. W&W has a multitude of annoyances compared to Bioware's Infinity Engine. The Infinity Engine also has a nicer more intuitive interface that keeps you out of the manual rather then in it as far as how things function. This is a case of as immersive as W&W is it still is a more painful overall experience then Baulder's Gate, Tales of the Sword Coast, BG2, Plainscape: Torment, or Icewind Dale. Very early on I made a "feels-like" comparison to Guardians of Destiny. W&W remains very similar to it. A great adventure story plot and very immersive but painful in other respects. Just keep trying--don't give up. But I'll tell you a worse problem now for me... These CRPG's are to large. I play them forever it seems and cannot manage breaks very well in between to do other essential tasks, i.e., Christmas cards are still sitting here waiting to be done. It is all too addictive for me I am afraid. I can't stop!

Allow me to express my totally unbiassed (LOL) opinion.Role Players and computers don't mix.Basically a computer can't make up a rule on the spot to cover unforseen circumstances (merely refusing to let you try anything adventurous),it has no personality(forcing dialogue to become a tactical navigation through preset phrases and stale unspontaneous speaches).In honest truth most role players are happily chanting "Hello my friend,shtay a while and listen" whilst rolling dice around a table with their mates, and only turn the computers on if there's noone to play with.That is why I beieve that there is virtually no such thing as a CRPG because computers basically seem to work in a narrow minded,mathematically preset, way without personal choice.What most CRPG's actually seem to be is highly sophistcated Tactical games with a fantasy or sci fi setting.As a pint of interest most of my friends still remember the phrase "You haven't role played until the GM's had an NPC use a grappling hook as a weapon.".
Now, turning to W&W.It looked very like the notorious Might and Magic things but without so much dull button and lift hunting and with more of a classic storyline.Also it didn't have some atrocious sci fi pun in it (when I want to walk around with blasters and laser guns I play UFO: Enemy Unknown or Unreal or something like that).Please bear in mind that M&M8 seemed a little rushed (the characters don't speak most of the time,they don't speak when entering areas,the maps are tiny compared to MM6 and the storyline is rubbish compared to MM7).I just hope that this doesn't turn out like Revenant did (unsupported by the producers, the makers made two or three patches then left it alone for legal reasons(Eidos held the copywrite for four years and threatened them with legal action)).If you made a full installation you might have noticed that among the various pictures (the character sheets etc seem to be made up of pictures) there is a Multi Player Game Joining Screen.What happened to this? Did the game get rushed by the producers who wanted to make a quick proffit?Was it decided too tricky to implement? If so then why was this screen on the installation disks?Was it because they hadn't bothered taking it out or was it so that they could make a multi player patch?Maybe they realised that without random maps Multi Player would be pretty pointless.Anyway,enough questions.It would be nice if Mr D.W.Bradley would read this (as he aapparently reads this forum, and why not? Custuomer feedback would be extremely handy for his next product).

I gotta agree with Dwarf.There is no such thing as RPG on computer, just a ...shadow of it.I played a few times rpg with my friends, and comparing to that, crpgs are..closed-in, if i might say that(imagine---you are sitting with friends and you have just finished quest of killing Cet.Now what, one asks:What are we going to do now?;Then the other:Lets sail endless sea/climb great serran mountains/something like that), or--In tavern--, a bar fight.There are endless plots to consider while playing in paper rpgs, when in crpgs, putting ,for an instance, sailing endless sea would mean too much work.Look at BG, there are closed-in sections, there is no adventuring!W&W is better in that aspect here, You can actually FEEL the world as you march through, while in BG---lets go to square on the left, lets go to trademeet(where is it?that big icon in the middle of the map).

You ppl propablly know it all, but I just wanted to say something on that case

PS.Sorry for my spelling,Im still learning.

Erad

In addiotion to my post------Lost Sea is no longer uncharted, now where can I sell my map, hmm

For better than 15 years I played RPGs online in chat rooms. Face to face rpgers probably wouldn't think it was the best way to go, but I found it to be great fun. Made some really excellent friends playing rpg online! So while CRPGs will never quite hit the mark, online "live" games come close! (just no graphics! rather like back to Infocom days!)

Wyv

Long live WW! It is also to me the best and only true RPG I've played since Wiz7. In fact, after a few weeks of playing WW, I actually realised with horror that prior to playing it, I've actually forgotten what it's like to play a true-blue RPG. I realised that I had almost come to believe unconsciously that "RPG" meant BG and D2, rather than something like the Wizardry series. The horror, the horror.

I suspect one problem with reviewers is that they simply do not immerse themselves in the game - I mean, for an RPG as deep as WW, how can anyone possibly be fit to review it without playing at least a few months' worth??? Reviewers often write a review as soon as they're ready to move on... or rather, when the deadline approaches. I bring up the case of the review in PC Gamer - much to my pleasant surprise, the reviewer actually gave it a good review, rated about 70+%. But though I am grateful for that, upon the reading the review, I get the feeling that the reviewer didn't play very far at all into the game.

Right now, I'm just hoping it's all a phase, as it's been.. I mean, there were times when gamers declared that RPGs were dead... no they weren't, they were just evolving... now they say adventures are dead, but I'm not sure. Hopefully when software development is more advanced and efficient, more bug-free WW-type games can be produced...

BTW, I hate the Bioware Infinity engine too.

Actually, most of the reviews I read were fairly upbeat and positive. However, having visited the USENET forums, it's been pretty dismal in there, especially in the "big" one:
ews:comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg They've been pretty gawdawful about it in there; however, I find rarely that what they like is what I like. That's why I try to find the online "web" forums more. I think the USENET forums tend to be a lot more "techie" and less end-user.

For those of you wanting to find copies of the Wizardry games, your best bet is the Interplay web site, which I've mentioned before. They're the ones that took over the republishing of the Wizardry games since Sir-Tech bought a farm in '98. You can purchase them online there, or write to them or call them. I know there was some trepidation about purchasing things online. Fact of the matter is, most online vendors are more than willing to work with "alternative arrangements". Not everyone has credit cards, or credit for that matter.

Cheers,
Sazerac

Hi,

Its been a while but this thread caught my eye.
I was given Baldur's Gate for Christmas (the first one), and I finally can say I have some comments referring to the two systems (it and WW).

First off, Baldur's Gate reminds me a lot of Ultima 6, but with a lot more bells are whistles. I did really like Ultimas herbs and all that so it has a special place in my little black book of RPG's.

I didn't know that BG was from the genre of TSR games, hence where "RPG" started after the tales of Bilbo Baggins and all of that jolly good stuff. While I have played Eye of the Beholder and have some knowledge of the traditional DND, I will say it is so very hard to put that system into a video game!

Although I think BD is really fun and I've been playing it like mad, I also find it quite frusterating. The game does crash now and then, and though its fun and all, I still like and love the WW interface better. I do like the idea of seeing the world from the characters eyes and not watching from above. I have also noticed how many times I have to save and restart my game since the battles are so random and one fight you can slaughter the enemy, and another they'll toast you, or kill your characters permanently.

Without having any old time DND'ers flame me, I have to say in my opinion that there is a place for those DND rules. While I do like it, I find the rules to be very anal retentive, having to memorize spells, and having wimpy spell casters who just seem to die most of the time. The whole "Thaco" thing seems odd, for most of the times I have big burly knights clad in armor swinging at wolves and bears and missing 90% of the time. It just seems like others have said, that world belongs best on pen and paper.

I really do think games like Bard's Tale and Wizardry have caused a new path in RPG's, and for the better. Sticking to the safe and soggy gets worn out and stagnant after some time. Even some of the wacky RPG's on Nintendo and other systems have brought some fun into my gaming days here and there.

My point is, we can't measure up WW to Baldur's gate. They are like apples and oranges...WW is at the heart of its own sect of RPG, as is BG, Final Fantasy and all the other games out there.

WW is pretty damn good for its one sect, and so is BG. I think that Wizardry 8 will be a smash too, from the looks of it now, it seems to be one hell of a game.

Well, that's enough out of the ol' windbag for one evening!

Cheers and beers

Scronan

Scronan, do you still have a copy of Bard's Tale? I've been trying to get hold of it for years (I believe there's a PC friendly version).Wizardry 8 ? Where can I find out more about this (only just heard of it).W&W good points, the portraits: firstly they looked rather like those nice comfy AD&D 1st Edition friendly characters (hippy/biker , The Mullet is back in fashion) as opposed to the Planescapse/ 3rd Ed style punks/ manga rubish.The portraits (unlike the ghastly Forgotten Realm stuff) were also thankfully bereft of all nudity,impractical exploitica style armour, pointless body piercings (return of the punks- no!!!!!)and actually had beards (farewell to the crue cut clan of BG fame).Also the portraits are customisable (I thought "why are they on my hard drive?" and found this one out(I kept backup copies of th original))now if a character changes to a Barbarian I can apply beautifully toned warpaint and tribal markings (carefully so that they don't clash) but I don't rush it.Next the familiar Diablo/ Might and Magic inventory (I prefer the word "backpack" or "pack" or "packspace")was a bonus.I didn't like the way that the forest paths looked likt they had walls around them or that only the monsters that I was fighting were in turn based time so that others could easily surround and outflank me (this was probably done for copywrite reasons held by NWC but I could be wrong).I will not compare this to Baldur's Gate or Diablo (or theeir respective sequels) because I like them a lot (Diablo 2 is still my favourite computer game but fav CRPG has to go to MM7 or W&W).I don't like the AD&D rules system very much (1st and 2nd Ed's made the characters too hard, 3rd Ed (and 1st Ed Unearthed Arcana) were written for power gamers) rather prefering realistic systems like WFRP (careful, you only live once) and RQ(if it hit's you once-you're hurt,twice-you're dead (unless wearing armour)three times and if you're still standing then something is seriously wrong with you (like the bloke hasn't pulled his spear out of the wall that you're pinned too). An example of system differences. AD&D: The mighty fighter puts on his plate armour, vaults into the saddle and rides for eight hours after wich he comes to a narrow valley.Here he is ambushed by orcish archers hiding among the rocks and kills them because he has more HP's than Tom and Jerry and probably has a magic weapon too. RQ:The stupid fighter whilst wearing plate armour (please note if he's anywere civilised this might cause a fight) rides his horse for eight hours without stopping!He then comes upon a narrow valley and is ambushed by orcish archers hiding amonst the rocks.He now surrenders for three reasons.1:They are using bows and hiding, he doesn't have a bow.2: They know the area (what the footing's like etc).And finally (most important) 3: THEY HAVEN'T BEEN RINDING FOR THE LAST 8 HOURS! In fact if he doesn't fall from the saddle (all of that time bouncing around on top of a horse in 30-40 lb of heavy metal is very tiring) then the orcs will probably panic and run.