I'm one of the "old timers", having first played Wizardry I way back in the mid-80's. (Remember when it was little more than a green wireframe "dungeon" and text?

Since then I've gotten on with my life, but then I drifted back to RPG's, stopping by Ultima and a couple others. I finally landed back on the Wizardry series (Bane of the Cosmic Forge the follow up... I forget the title at the moment... I'm old, remember?)

The thing I most enjoy about this series is the "first person" perspective. I'm not occupying some God-like view of the character way down there below me. When monsters and NPC's approach, they are walking up to ME, looking ME in the eye... and occasionally kicking my teeth down my throat. I like that. (Well, except for the teeth kicking part.)It just seems to add something to the experience for me. Makes it personal, rather than business.

In "Bane..." and it's follow up (and no, I still can't recall the name of it, dagnabit) the graphics were a series of "jumps" from still image to still image. That was acceptable. With W&W, I've now found smooth (mostly) flowing virtual motion through this odd world. I really REALLY like that.

My question therefore is this:

Does anyone know of any other RPG's out there that allow the player to experience the game AS the character, rather than looking down on the character from above? When I'm playing a military game, I prefer to "step back" from the action... I'm a strategist by nature, not a tank jockey... but when I go adventuring, I want my wrinkled, old butt directly on the line.

One other caveat.... I would much prefer it if these other games also functioned using "turn based combat", like W&W uses. After all, I'm old, and at my age, I'm likely to grab my bottle of Geritol and fling that at some rampaging troll rather than the poison bomb I distinctly remember having placed in that hip bag just this morning, consarnit. I can be a real "bad-ass" in a fair fight, so long as the game gives me the chance to shift by walker aside so I can pull my sword out, and only a turn based combat game allows me to do that. Otherwise, I wind up as a greasy spot on the astro-turf.

Thanks in advance for your recommendations.... ya young whipper-snappers... (what the heck IS a whipper-snapper, anyway?)

As I was reading the second part of the above post I had to recheck the header to make sure I hadn't written it and forgotten that I had done so. That happens when you get to my age you know.....

First person perspective? Optional turn-based combat? You betcha! Unfortunately I can only think of three FPP games to recommend which you didn't mention.
1 - The Might and Magic series ( 6, 7, 8 ) which are very like W&W in gameplay terms, but much bigger (graphics not so good though).
2 - Daggerfall, though it doesn't have turn based combat it is still very addictive (excellent gameplay, huge setting, graphics very dated, will Morrowind ever be ready? Sigh!)
3 - Thief (1, 2), extremely involving but not really RPG. No turn based combat but very strategy-oriented so lack of nimble fingers is not a drawback.

No idea what a whipper-snapper is, and why are they always young? Have you ever heard of an old whipper-snapper?

Whipper Snapper: A fish that makes dairy topping.

Ultima 9 is a good one. also if you like adventure try kings quest 8.

I agree with Astyanax: The Might & Magic series are a good bet. (M&M 3 or M&M4+5 are very good games, although with dated graphics, and M&M6 or M&M7 are great. M&M8 has a poor storyline/plot/etc)

Daggerfall is also a good game, because it's a _real_ RPG. Don't fancy doing the main quests? Well just live your normal life, guarding guilds, doing small errands, robbing shops at night... AFAIK, the game has over 400 cities (_HUGE_ cities) and more than 1000 dungeons.

If graphics aren't really a problem, then I'd also recommend other couple masterpieces: Betrayal in Krondor (great plot, by Raymond Feist; do not mistake it for Return to Krondor, tho) and the Ultima Underworld series.

Regards,
Pedro, the RPG addikt

First thing is DO NOT buy Ultima Ascension (Ultima 9) it is the worst peice of garbage I have played in a long time. RPG or otherwise. As stated above the Might and Magic series is very good if you dont mind investing lots of time. I am an old gamer also (most of us on here are over 30). I spent almost 2 years on Might and Magic 1 back in the day. I actually found some of my graph paper maps from 1989. This was before the days of hint books and web pages. I recently also tried Deus Ex and Half Life. I was very suprised at the RPG quality of both games. A nice suprise for a FPS. Sacrafice was also good in Beta but I havent played the final release yet. Something to look at. Alice should also be a good RPG but its in a different Genre than M & M and Wizardry.

Vorrin

hmmm, speaking of Sacrifice, I must admit that I haven't played W&W in a couple of days(HERESY!!) and Sacrifice is the reason :-} I just picked up the full version the other day and it is quite entertaining I must say.
I suppose it does have some RPG elements because you do spend quite a bit of time discovering and developing your character's identity. Plus he/she gains xp and gains levels which classifies anything as an RPG right? ; )
As for other games... yeah, if you don't mind the graphics then Daggerfall is about as good as it gets for freedom to develop your character and feel like you are part of a real, moving world. I hope Marrowind captures much of the same feel when it is released next year. BTW, what are most of your feelings about Wizardry 8? Looking forward to it? Don't care? Vaporware?

Might and Magic is excellent. If you have a Compaq PC, do not buy the original Baldur's Gate, there is a glitch they did not fix with the patches, which makes it impossible to finish the game. For that reason, I avoided all the sequels to it, since they advertised using the same engine. Diablo II is a great game, if you don't mind the top-down perspective. Heroes of MM just came out with some new add-ons, I haven't bought any yet.

If you like vampire stuff, Vampire the Masquerade is also a good game. I got it just to try something different. It's based off the table-top RPG and has a decent storyline. Also, I think Activision is making a Werewolf RPG (also based on the table-top game) but I'm not sure exactly what the release date is. Sometime this winter, I think.

EmilyH

PS. I'm actually under 30, but not by much. I've been gaming practically since computer games were invented. I remember learning how to use DOS when I was about 10, just to play games.

EmilyH

I too have never been won over by the top-down 3/4 view RPGs, even though there
have been some great ones like Baldur's Gate, Ultima7 and Ultima Online.

With first person, I really feel like I am there and thats what I love.

My all time faves in this perspective are:

Daggerfall
Ultima Underworld I
Betrayal at Krondor

All of these are a bit dated graphics wise, especially Krondor, but they are classic fun.

I am just waiting for the day someone makes a really good first person RPG with an Unreal or QuakeIII
type engine.

Gamebrain

Count my vote regarding Might&Magic. It fits your description almost by the letter (turn based combat, first person perspective) if you stick to parts III, IV and V. Don't know about the newer ones, I cut back on playing after the World of Xeen. That is M&M IV + V: if you install both, named "Clouds of Xeen" and "Darkside of Xeen", they make up the "World of Xeen", and you get a _really_ big world to explore. They also come with a mix of Fantasy and SciFi that I liked very much.

BTW, Wizardry VII was named "Crusaders of the Dark Savant". Just finished mapping the whole world (by pasting automap-puzzle-pieces) a couple months ago.

Another thing not mentioned here (why?) is Lands of Lore 1 (never played 2 myself) and Dungeon Master (1 or 2, 2 is pretty short IMHO). All of them call up pleasant memories of first person play. I guess you already know the old "Eye of the Beholder"-series?

If you can deal with playing realtime, I would not hesitate a second and start playing Ultima Underworld. Yes, it is pretty old, the graphics are from a time when 320x200 VGA caused "Ooooh"s and "Aaaah"s, but, hey, the same is true for Wizardry VII, M&M IV/V, Lands of Lore, and they all still are great games IMO that I would not hesitate to play again if:
a) I had the necessary time to spare and
b) I did not remember them so well (a bad memory has its advantages, too )

Ultima Underworld 1 and 2 were revolutionary games at their time, giving you free movement and first person perspective for a RPG when most others kept you jumping from square to square. Plus, the world of UU has a very dense atmosphere that can catch you and make you shrink back in you chair at the sound of a creaking gate somewhere in the darkness ahead. And the dungeons make sense, with different areas for different peoples, they seem real and inhabited - opposed to the random dungeons of Daggerfall. Daggerfall gives you an amazing freedom in character development and individuality, with itemmakers, spellmakers, lots of clothes, guilds, vampirism, lycanthropy, ..., but the dungeons begin to test you patience after some time. And playing Daggerfall, you easily spend a _lot_ of time.

If you like it Science Fiction as well as fantasy, you really should try System Shock 1 (maybe 2) as well. Developed by almost the same people as Ultima Underworld, it also gives you the first person perspective, free movement and realtime combat, along with a similarly dense atmosphere, which can make the hairs at the back of your neck stand when you open a bulkhead aboard the space station only to hear the whirr of a security bots servos up ahead. You leap aside, hoping to gain the little cover the doorway can grant you and ready your magnum. You check the ammo a last time - good, slugs, appropriate for this new foe - and open fire just as he rounds the corner. Four shots, and he is down, sparks flying. You sneak up to his remains, seeking to salvage whatever ammunition is left in this tin can, then you notice the reason for this encounter: a security camera, in the upper right corner of this passage. You whip out your lead pipe, bonk... "Level security is now at 73%"...
Sorry, got carried away.

My suggestion: go for it, a lot of great titles have been recommended here. Plus, most of them are older, so you can probably get them as a "classic edition" pretty cheap.
If you need further info on any of the games, or maybe help with some tricky puzzle, just ask. It seems like there are lots of experienced players around (is it arrogant to count me in, considering my age is still far from 30?), and walkthroughs for most of these games should also be available.

Have lots of fun,
LabRat