Specially for spell casters. 1-2 bonus spells for 20 INT or 20 CHA is not good as +1 level.

And about pally's..

Aasmir is the best ECL in my opinion. However, it's not good as a Human Pally. Let's see the stats.

Level 12 Human Paladin

STR 18
CON 12
DEX 12
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 14

Total: 16

Level 11 Aasmir Paladin (-1 level because of ECL class)

STR 18
CON 14
DEX 12
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 14

Total:20

Let's compare them..
it's just for fun. Just to share my thoughts ok?

TOTAL HP

+11 HP (+1 level) = +11 HP (CON modifier +1 higher)

Level 11 Aasmir has 110 (10d11) + 22 (11 x 2) = 132 HP

Level 12 Human has 120 (10d12) + 12 (12 x 1) = 132 HP

SKILL POINTS PER LEVEL

2 skill points per level (humans get +1) VS 1 skill points per level (no int modifier)

FEAT

+1 extra feat VS none

CREATION

2 extra skill points at 1st level VS N/A (it's not a big penalty anyway)

THACO

Base Attack +12 (+1 level) VS Base Attack +11 (-1 level, ECL)

RESISTANCE

N/A VS 5 Fire, Cold, Electric Resistance (finally!)

SAVE

+1 save (+1 level) VS +1 fortifude (Con modifier is +1 higher)

Well, choice is yours, All comments welcome!

Perhaps for some classes... BUT my drow sorcerer is my party leader, because of this he gets more than EXP than the rest of the party. That plus the experience book in the monestary has actualy put him PAST my humans in level. And whiel yes I could have a level 28 human sorcerer right now instead of a 26 Drow I like the bonuses they get. ESPECIALY the spell resistance!!! at level 28 my Sorc has a spell resistance of 38 and almost ALL spell fail on him and thats in HoF. I see your point about Aasimir but I still think Drow are worth it.

I cant say that you're wrong. 2 level penalty is a big penalty in early levels but for high levels it's ok, 38 spell resistance oh god I cant believe it!!

lol, my asimar is level 1 pal, level 6 monk. ;) That is a dual class that has yet to fail a save. lol, +5 mod from charisma is a nice bonus. ;) The monk has good saves normally too. Of course, the 20 wisdom is nice too. So How would a human compare to this? Not very well. lol It would stink up the room in comparison.

All the ECL characters should be used a bit differently. They have stranger abilities and penalties.

I think my fav ECL is Deep Gnome. ;) I can't dislike a +4 AC. ;)

Somewhere a long way back in the messages, someone suggested using a deep gnome as a monk. Of course, the 3 level penalty is rather stiff, but I think with careful play, and especially if you plan on moving up to HOF later, this could be a viable combination. Just think about that blur once a day, and continuous non-detection for sneaking around. And yes, that +4 generic AC bonus, which would stack with all the others, including the special bonus monks get as they go up in level.

<center>Nightowl2</center>

"lol, my asimar is level 1 pal, level 6 monk. That is a dual class that has yet to fail a save. lol, +5 mod from charisma is a nice bonus. The monk has good saves normally too. Of course, the 20 wisdom is nice too. So How would a human compare to this? Not very well. lol It would stink up the room in comparison."

A human similarly constructed would have 2 less in Wis and Cha, so he'd have 1 AC point less and 1 saving throw bonus point less. But, he'd also have an extra level, an extra feat, 4 more skill points at 1st level and one more per level thereafter. I don't think that qualifies as stinking at all [img]smile.gif[/img]

Also the dual is a little weird to me, the other Monk stats would really suffer with a 20 in Cha - and the Monk has amazing saves as it is, he doesn't need a paladin level to help them out, seems like saving throw overkill to me, which will come at the expense of combat effectiveness (you'd have to skimp on str and/or dex, both of which are vital to a Monk when he fights).

All the races with exp penalty are good to form a group having less than 6 characters.
Iwd II is using the core rule of 3rd Edition, the average level of your party will affect the experience you gain. The lower the average level is the higher the exp you get.
I've played online with several best friends for some time. We all used the races with no exp penalty, and there were only 4 characters in our group. We played from the beginning without exporting or importing. When we were fighting in the dragon's eye, we seldom got exp killing the enemies.
My friend solo this game with a Aasmir paladin/monk/sorceror(sor is the main class). Though there is xp penalty, he levels up pretty fast.

So the races like deep gnome and drow are good to form an 'elite' group with not many persons. They are good even for solo, because the xp penalty keeps their level lower than usual races. In other word, they need more xp to level up.

I have found the exp Penalized races are PERFECT for soloing... have you ever seen a Drow monk? the Spell resistance STACKS(too a point[50]) I also made a Deep Gnome Fighter/Wizard... very flexible and with a starting AC of 19. Got up to the horde fortress with him but stopped to play through HoF. SO: If a character is penalized 3 levels is he given experience based on his EFFECTIVE level class or his ACTUAL?

How does a monk SUFFER from having a good cha? Nobody ever SUFFERS from it, its a nice benefit for 1 or MAYBE 2 chars. This monk is my 'spokes-person', so she needs that 20. Also, monks don't need strength that badly (especially in the REAL 3rd edition rules with weapon finesse (unarmed), and my monk has 18 dex. A deep gnome monk is NOT good as a spokes person though... just think of all that ugly, grey skin. heh heh

The only benefit I've ever found for being a human is the bonus feat. Of course, having a bonus to wis and cha outweighs this for a monk/paladin.

Don't forget the ability to heal 5 damage every day. ;)

Monks saves at low levels aren't anything specialy amazing (like all low level characters), so the bonus +5 to each from the paladin level is insanely useful. She's very handy for hanging around in an entangled or webbed area.

If I were you, I agree with Gimli.
Using a monk as a speaking person isn't so wise... Don't you want any rewards?
A monk does not need str so badly, but he does need it. It will make a lot of difference since the weapon finesse is no use to monks' fists in iwd2.
Anyway, that's your choice. Having fun is most important.

I'm just waiting til my drow pally gets his holy avenger...

lol, the monk has 10 strength and serves well. Also, I'm not an idiot, I don't have the monk pick up the paltry reward moneys. I let other pick it up. lol

Also, the monk gets extra HP from the paladin level. When starting out a monk at level 1, its a good idea to include toughness, as your HP is rather icky. Of course, since I went with a paly first, I didn't have to waste that feat.

Also, in what way does having a paly level hinder my monk? None. She still gets her dandy monk abilities.

He suffers from Cha because it ate up 8 starting ability points that IMHO should have been divvied up amongst Str & Dex (and if any was leftover, Con). It makes him weaker as a combatant, period.

"The only benefit I've ever found for being a human is the bonus feat. Of course, having a bonus to wis and cha outweighs this for a monk/paladin."

Humans also have no ECL penalty; they get a bonus skill point at every level, and get 4 bonus points at character creation; and they have no favored class. And I think the multi in question (monk/pali) is a mistake in the first place. Not that I don't like Aasimars - they and the Drow are the only races with a net +4 in ability points. I just think the way you're using their points is unwise and wasteful. This is just my opinion of course.

Dex has nothing to do with unarmed attacks here, so Str is very important. Not only to increase your chances to hit but to up damage. Monks can't take weapon finesse for their unarmed attacks, also they can't focus and/or specialize with unarmed. So the *only* way to bump it with stats is via Str.

No one's saves are great at level 1, but that's no reason to max Cha and take a Paladin level. One of the Monk's strongest points is their great saving throws, so I just don't see why you want to add to them at the expense of his other stats. I would suggest that a pure Human Monk, with a better blend of stats (not only would I not put 8 points into Cha, I would rob from the stat down to a 4 or so) would mop the floor with your Aasimar in a fight. You'd be 2 levels behind him, and your AC, BAB and damage would all be less. Also you have to be lawful good with your build, and evil Monks aren't effected by alot of the alignment-based spells that will be cast his way (such as unholy blight, etc).

"lol, the monk has 10 strength and serves well."

Ick! What a wussy Monk [img]smile.gif[/img] You'd be +4 behind in both Str and Damage compared with a "real" Monk. You've got a pretty-boy who's a weakling [img]smile.gif[/img] j/k

"Also, the monk gets extra HP from the paladin level. When starting out a monk at level 1, its a good idea to include toughness, as your HP is rather icky. Of course, since I went with a paly first, I didn't have to waste that feat. "

I disagree, I would never waste a feat on Toughness anyway - actually my ideal Monk wouldn't use unarmed fighting and would start with 4 fighter levels, but even if I were going pure I would not take toughness, I'd just buff him with spells to protect him. Also since he'd have a better Dex than yours his AC would be better so he'd get hit less (would probably have a better Con too).

"Also, in what way does having a paly level hinder my monk? None. She still gets her dandy monk abilities."

It puts all of those abilities one level behind - plus one more level because of the Aasimar's ECL penalty. Your monk abilities would always be 2 levels less than a pure Human monk's - that's how they're hindered.

From a technical standpoint I guess we could all debate the ups and downs of various races until the cows come home, but would tat really get anything useful done? Probably not. You guys paid your hard-earned cash for this game (you did pay for the game didn't you? [img]graemlins/nono.gif[/img] ), use whatever races and classes suit your role-playing tastes.
The bottom line is that this is a role-playing game, the whole beauty of it is that you can create whatever characters you feel that you want to play as. You don't have to take the characters that the game-designers give you, it's wonderful. I persoanlly have 2 Paladins in my current party, one is Aasimar, the other is Human. The Aasimar one is the party's leader due to his charisma, wisdom and celestial heritage. The Human guy is his younger, less experienced squire (sorta like Obi Wan Kenobi to Quaigon Jin). I might be able to get better numbers on my skill sheet if I had another human instead of an aasimar, but to be honest I don't care. It's the characterization and the role-playing of it all that counts.

ps: Sorry for rambling on, I just thought maybe a few of us are starting to take the technical side of things a little too seriously. These games are for pleasure, not work [img]smile.gif[/img]

"Yes, playing is for pleasure." [img]smile.gif[/img] There doesnt always have to be a PERFECT formula for "How to have fun." [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm not saying Aasimars are a poor choice by any stretch - I have an Aasimar Sorcerer and he rocks, and have used one as a Fighter/Paladin as well. The +4 bonus to ability points for just -1 ECL is pretty nice, and they are cool from a RP point of view too (not to mention getting the element resistances and darkvision).

I think the debate began when it was suggested a Human would "stink up the room" compared to an Aasimar, which just isn't true; and also about the merits of a Paladin/Monk build. I don't think those are defensible positions and they have nothing to do with roleplaying. Humans IMHO are a very strong race.

yes playing for pleasure exactly. for ex, I know that human pallys are better but I have an aasmir paladin.

aasmirs have +4 but humans also get +4. (-1 level cost 2 CON points and +1 skill point per level costs 2 INT poinst)

Actually if you really want to power-game, you could say humans have +9 Int advantage as far as skill points go. A human with a 3 Int (as low as it can go) will still get 2 skill points per level. Any other race needs a 12 in Int to get 2 per level. So long as the human in question doesn't rely on skills that are Int-based, there's no penalty either for being a 3 int rock [img]smile.gif[/img]

lol, as I said, 18 dexterity. I don't see a problem with that. I also use a weapon until my BAB gets high enough (I used moonblade). I COULD have used weapon finesse instead and just suffered a short sword +1 or a similar weapon, but I liked the undead killing portion.

An ECL is not really a big difference. As I said, the only thing that humans that I'd want for one of my characters is the bonus feat.

Their is also a touch of REALISM in having a high charisma score for a monk. lol, heaven forbid I make a decision based on thoughts OTHER than of powergaming... lol

Monks saves are not really any better than anybody elses in particular. It certainly isn't their 'chief strength' by any stretch. Also, have you ever had the joy of having your monk fail his saving throw and be halted in the fight? Its really annoying. Monks have poor HD for a warrior, and their BAB is low. Thus, I can use spells to aide his strength enough (which isn't much, its good enough by itself really).

Skills don't amount to anything. They are pointless for a warrior. A waste of time even. So HOW does having that 1 extra skill point help that human fighter? lol, it doesn't. And yet, you keep mentioning it like its important? lol, how does it stack up to the handy sunscorch ability? Or perhaps the nightvision (which is better than 1 skill point per level by far)? Or perhaps, the bonus to stats? Or perhaps... lol, the list goes on.

I don't think you understand the mechanics of the game very well based on your last post, so I'm going to stop responding here and let you play however you wish. Enjoy the game!

I have to agree that mr. Gimli's point about human's skill is quite true. That strikes a chord with me. It works well when you build a character like ranger.
18/18/18/3/16/3
You got 2 skill points every level that you can add to hide and move silently based on dex.

Oh what the heck:

"lol, as I said, 18 dexterity. I don't see a problem with that. I also use a weapon until my BAB gets high enough (I used moonblade). I COULD have used weapon finesse instead and just suffered a short sword +1 or a similar weapon, but I liked the undead killing portion."

So you took an 18 Dex for the Pally/Monk? OK, if so there has been at least one solid decision. Your BAB is going to be simply awful because of your low Str though. So is your damage. Weapon finesse would be a totally wasted feat if you are going to switch to unarmed combat later on (it does not apply to unarmed attacks). Using a sword early on is fine - but with a 10 Str you're going to be lame with it.

"An ECL is not really a big difference. As I said, the only thing that humans that I'd want for one of my characters is the bonus feat."

It's the ECL plus the Paladin level, which essentially puts you 2 levels behind a pure Human Monk. You'll feel that for sure. Generally you finish the game at roughly level 16. So make that 15 because you're an Aasimar, minus one to Monk levels because you took the Paladin level. You'd be missing Quivering Palm, another +1 to AC, +2 to movement, and the switch to d20 from d12 in unarmed damage. I'd say that's pretty significant.

"Their is also a touch of REALISM in having a high charisma score for a monk. lol, heaven forbid I make a decision based on thoughts OTHER than of powergaming... lol"

So you're saying all Monks are charismatic, handsome devils? There's no less realism in a loner-type, secluded Monk who shies away from civilization and has no people-skills, and therefore has a low Cha. Low Cha is fun to RP too.

"Monks saves are not really any better than anybody elses in particular. It certainly isn't their 'chief strength' by any stretch. Also, have you ever had the joy of having your monk fail his saving throw and be halted in the fight? Its really annoying."

I guess you just don't pay attention to the rules - Monks have the *best* saves, bar none, of any character in the game. Check out page 136 of the manual, where it lists the "base save bonuses". There are 3 types of saves, Will, Reflex and Fortitude. Monks get the highest base save bonus for *every* one of those - no other class does, they all have at least one (and most 2) weaknesses (meaning they go by the lower save base bonus). I'd say that is a great advantage and a major strength of the class. And if you don't think saves are important, then why would you ever take a Paladin level, and max out Cha to a 20, and say it's great because you never fail saves?? Also with a maxed out Wis get their Wis bonus to Will saves; they get evasion and improved evasion, plus their Dex bonus to Reflex saves; and if they have a decent Con (which is quite a challenge with maxed Cha to devote points to), they add that to their Fortitude saves. Plus they get spell resistance at 13th level. They are saving thow *machines* and categorically do *not* in any way need the Paladin's boost with maxed Cha to improve them - it's overkill and a waste of stat points and a level. The *only* reason to do this is *purely* for roleplaying purposes, it makes absolutely no sense from a game mechaincs point of view.

What would be way more annoying to me than rarely failing a saving throw would be missing alot in combat, and doing very little damage when you do manage to hit, and also having low HP.

"Monks have poor HD for a warrior, and their BAB is low. Thus, I can use spells to aide his strength enough (which isn't much, its good enough by itself really)."

You can use spells on any Monk to up Str, not just on poorly designed ones that start out with a 10 in Str. Spells that increase Str don't stack, so the best you're looking at is about +5 from a Bull's Str. I'd much rather have that going on top of an 18, or better yet a 22 at level 16. Their HD problem is offset by the fact that their AC can get really high, and also should cry out "raise my Con, not my Cha". Their BAB is right in the middle as BAB goes, it's not "low", check pages 136 and 137.

"Skills don't amount to anything. They are pointless for a warrior. A waste of time even. So HOW does having that 1 extra skill point help that human fighter?
lol, it doesn't."

Are we talking about a human fighter? No we're talking about a Monk. If you're going to use him as a leader type, which you said you would (which IMHO is also a mistake) you need to raise Diplomacy; also Monks have access to, and should most definitely take advantage of Hide and Move Silently - they are perhaps the best mage-killers in the game, and sneaking behind enemy lines and taking out mages is something they can do amazingly well. That means your particular Monk ideally would need 3 skill points per level. I think the Human hits the sweet spot for a Monk - even with a 3 Int, they get 2 skill points per level, which means maxed out Hide and Move Silently, which pretty much will eventually equal free invisibility all the time.

"And yet, you keep mentioning it like its important? lol, how does it stack up to the handy sunscorch ability? Or perhaps the nightvision (which is better than 1 skill point per level by far)? Or perhaps, the bonus to stats? Or perhaps... lol, the list goes on."

Free invisibility from hide and move silently is so much more useful than sunscorch (the damage from a sling of a Monk with a good Str will do more damage than that, I don't think any Aasimar I've played has ever bothered to even use it). Nightvision is also not needed- it's nice, but I'd rather the screen look a little greyer to me than to pass up having another skill maxed out. Plus so long as one other character in the group has nightvision, the whole group can get its benefits, so it is also IMHO a waste if you have it more than once.

Again, have fun roleplaying this character, enjoy your game - but you really have alot of holes in your knowledge of how to design characters IMHO. And also using the acronym "lol" ad infinitum doesn't make your arguments any more persuasive.

[ 10-29-2002, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Gimli ]

Oh, not to mention...

Monks are immune to disease (5th), poison (11th);

and they get Still Mind at 3rd level which gives a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells and effects from the Enchantment school.

A few more reasons why they need no saving throw boosts.

But I thought about and realized your biggest flaw - the Paladin level grants a +1 BAB. And in IWD II, if you get +1 or more BAB from any other class as a multi-classed Monk, you lose the benefits of the Monk's special unarmed attack table. So here would be an end-game comparison of the pure human Monk to yours,
fighting unarmed:

Human (16th level, all Monk):

4 attacks, BAB +12/+9/+6/+3; damage is d20 per attack

Aasimar (15th level, 1 Paladin, 14 Monk):

3 attacks, BAB +11/+6/+1; damage is d12 per attack

Not to mention the Human, if built with an 18 Str, will have another +5 advantage to hit and to damage.

I'd say that is quite a steep cost, and if you still think a Human stinks up the room compared to your Aasimar, well we'll never agree, *lol*

Can we get together and sing songs about peace and happiness and chill out?
He's having fun with his "Crazy Monk" AND since he is doing this and giving us insight into what are bound to be the misadventures of the crazy monk WE dont have to. If he gets to the end of the game I WOULD like to here about that and how well he did. But in the mean time: Who has a Half-Orc Necromancer they want to share tales of?

Very nice debate, but please guys, watch your temper, we are very close to flames now...

Keep in mind that all your opinions are based on your playing style, and unless you all play the game the same way and like the same things, none of you will be able to convince each other.

That being said, I would like to add some opinions to the discussion.

Personally, I like my monks to have as high a strength as possible, so that they can do lots of damages, since weapon finesse does not work for monks in this game. But there is hope for dexterity lovers. The latest ease of use mod has a fix that allow weapon finesse to work for monks, and the cool thing about the ease of use mod is that you can chose what elements to install. So if you don't want any "cheats" in your game, you can still install the weapon finesse fix, since weapon finesse apply to monk's unarmed attacks in the official 3rd edition D&D rules.

Also, someone mentioned that monks have higher ac than normal, so that compensate for their low hitpoints. I disagree. By the end of the game, about every ennemies have at least +20 to attack, so you will never evade anyway. And let's not even talk about HOF mode... In my opinion, in this game, the only thing that make difference is damage reduction.

For Gimli.

I am very confused with the BAB for a pure class monk and multi classed monk. I was looking at the reply that you put up above comparing the human and the assimar multiclassed monks.

Could you explain for me what the BABs would be for a level 10 human monk with 10 str would compare with a level 9 monk level 1 rogue tiefling also with 10 str. I just want to know how the game handles this and how to interpret the BAB tables in the manual.

If I was to get 4 levels of fighter and 1 monk how would the BAB compare to a level 5 monk?

Sorry for the lame questions I just don't get it.

I had planned on making a monk level x level rogue 1 and a monk level x/sorcerer level 8. Perhaps these would be junk?

Just trying to understand and use the game.

Thanks for your advice.

Cheers.

Do you only want Mr. Gimli? If you do, just ignore my issues.lol
For fighter classes(fighter,ranger,paladin,barbarian), you have 1 bab on level 1, and you keep gaining one bab on each lv.
For classes likecleric, thief, bard, monk and druid, you have 0 bab on first level, and you get 3 bab for each 4 levels.
For wizards and sorcerors, you have 0 bab on first level and you get 1 bab for each 2 levels.

The least number is +1 for each attack basically.When your bab reaches 6, you have one extra attack number each turn, but you have penalty of -5 attack role for the second attack. So it makes +6/+1.
Similarly, you get your second, third or even more attack numbers as your bab is increasing. for example, a lv 16 fighter has 16 bab, so it should be +16/+11/+6/+1. you will have 4 attack number then.

However, monks use a different way to count the attack number. It is -4 for each attack per round, not -5. And remember, it only counts like that when you are using your fists. It is a big advantage for monks.

IWD2 has a bug that makes a monk's bab get messed up when you have some other class's bab added to the total bab.( You must have at least one bab from other class, and only lv 1 fighter classes will have one bab while other classes have none.) Your monk's attack number will be just like you are using weapons even when you are attacking with your fists.(-5)

Using rogue's sneak attack with monk is a good point in nwn, but not in iwd2, since the bab bug is there. LV1 rogue and lv x monk? Why do you choose that?
Do you want to get rogue's skill bounus at lv1? well, that is considerable, but I won't do that because the monk will never reach level 30 and one level higher sometimes means a lot.( Like lv15 and lv16 monks, their damage of fists are quite different.)

Lv8 sor and lvx monk? Tell me your thinking about this class please.
I used to develop lv1 monk lvx sor.lol

'If I was to get 4 levels of fighter and 1 monk how would the BAB compare to a level 5 monk?'

According to my last post.
4 fighter/1 monk bab 4+0=4
5 monk bab 3

I beg to differ. I finished the game, and am halfway through HoW with a 6 DROW PARTY.

I am finding the game too easy. I do not uses Summoning Spells, pre-patch Imporoved invisibility, bows, stealth, rogues,...

If anybody cares my party is:
Fighter / Cleric of Helm 22/1
Barbarian / Cleric of Tempus 22/1
Paladin / Cleric of Illmater 20/3
Cleric of Illmater / Paladin 21/2
Duid / Cleric of Talos 20/3
Wizard / Rogue 21/2

Buff up and melee all the way.

I dunno 'bout other ECL classes though,

In general, for multiclassed Monks, here is what happens with their BAB - note this applies to their fighting while *unarmed*.

The Monk loses access to the table on page 137, which is their special unarmed BAB table - *if* they gain +1 or more BAB from any other class. So what this does to them is put then on to the table on page 136 for BAB for *all* types of attacks, including unarmed.

So when I computed the Pally(1)/Monk(14)'s BAB for unarmed fighting, what I am doing is going to page 136, looking up a 14th level Monk, and adding +1 to it, which will come from the Pally level. Since it bumps the BAB to +11, that is what gives the 3 attacks. For the pure Monk who's 16th level, for unarmed fighting I look at page 137, which gives the 4 attacks at +12/+9/+6/+3. Actually the Monk's BAB when fighting unarmed (so long as the Monk hasn't gained +1 BAB from another class) is not "low" at all - it grants extra attacks faster than any other class, and the BAB only goes down by 3 from attack to attack, whereas for everyone else it goes down by 5.

"Could you explain for me what the BABs would be for a level 10 human monk with 10 str would compare with a level 9 monk level 1 rogue tiefling also with 10 str. I just want to know how the game handles this and how to interpret the BAB tables in the manual.

If I was to get 4 levels of fighter and 1 monk how would the BAB compare to a level 5 monk?"

OK, I'll deal with these examples. The 10 Str grants no + to BAB at all, so you're going right off of the tables. (Although as Luvian points out, you can "patch" the game with one of Wes's mods that would allow you to take the weapon finesse feat and have it applied to unarmed fighting. That would let you add your Dex bonus to your BAB, but still not to damage like Str, which is why I still feel Str should be maxed out. Also it saves you a feat if Str is maxed as there's then no reason to take weapon finesse.)

The level 9 Tiefling Monk with 1 Thief level does *not* lose the special unarmed benefits table on page 137. The reason why is because the first thief level does not grant a BAB bonus. So from page 137, he has 2 attacks unarmed, at +6/+3. The level 10 Human has 3 attacks unarmed, at +7/+4/+1. If they fight with any weapon other than their fists, you go over to page 136. Then the Tiefling has 2 attacks at +6/+1; the Human has 2 at +7/+2.

Four levels of Fighter means that you've achieved more than +1 to BAB from a class other than Monk, so the table on page 137 no longer applies to you. Basically you're dealing with adding together the bonuses on page 136 for both unarmed combat and with any other weapon. The Figter levels give you 1 attack at a +4 BAB; the 1st Monk level gives no BAB bonus. So you'd be at +4 BAB with one attack. A level 5 pure Monk breaks down like this. If he fights using unarmed combat, he gets (from p 137) 1 attack at a +3 BAB; with any other weapon, he gets (from p 136) 1 attack at +2 BAB. Early on the differences between the special unarmed table and from the normal BAB table aren't as dramatic as they get when you hit higher levels, so up to say level 6 or so it would be perfectly fine to let your Monk use a weapon instead of fists.

It's also OK (and in fact I am doing it right now) to make a character who would be a Fighter(4)/Monk(x) who you never plan on having use unarmed attacks. The one I have maxes Str and fights with 2-handed weapons to fully take advantage of that. He gets 3 extra feats from the Fighter levels too, and all the special Monk abilities - plus he can take weapon specialization for +2 more damage, and if he takes it in 2 weapons, take maximized attacks.

But if you want a Monk who is going to fight unarmed, then multi-classing has to be done with extreme care. I like the idea of taking one Thief level the best, as it doesn't grant any + to BAB, and it does give the d6 extra sneak attack damage - plus if you start the character off as a Thief, he'll get a ton of skill points, which most certainly are not "useless".

I apologize if my remarks were "close to flames"; I feel the excessive "lols", along with just blatant misinterpretation of the rules, were both disrespectful and also required correction.

Also Luvian, I do think the Monk's AC can get raised to some pretty silly levels, and it will help if taken to extremes against almost anyone (although I can't speak from HoF experience as I don't play in that mode). Plus in their role as mage-killers, they don't have to worry so much about being hit in combat by mages. They just have to hit them with the element of surprise, do alot of damage quickly (and/or use stunning attack, *grin*), and be able to save vs. spells (which I hope I've at least shown Monks shine inherently at) and/or resist them outright with spell resistance.

ease of use is cheating i think [img]smile.gif[/img] except bonus merchant
do you agree?

Hmm, I do use the "infinite item stacking" one, just because I don't want to spend alot of time with my inventory. If that's cheating then I'll gladly be labeled a cheater, life's too short to spend clicking on arrows all the time [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm not sure what the PnP rules say about Monks, unarmed combat, and weapon finesse. I think if they allow it, then it's not "true" cheating. But I think if you add it after the fact to "correct" an already created Monk, then it does seem like cheating to me somewhat.

I got to agree, but I go one step further... I think ANY mod to the game that is not official could be considered cheating. The reason you use it is to get skills feats or items that make your game easier. As for the Merchant... I dont think the Ease of Use Mod merchant is the same as the "Pre-Order" Ed. Merchant. I could be wrong but he seems to hoky and some of those iems shouldnt even be usuable in the game such as the Zerth Blade which is a KATANA... and katanas dont even exist in this game. I may be wrong.

This is the official merchant, and the katana is a masterwork bastard sword.

What is and is not cheating is different for every person. But personally, I don't consider the unarmed fix to be a cheat, as in the official 3rd edition rules, monks can use it for their unarmed attack. I think that the devs where just not aware of this.

Gimli especially amd others. Thanks for explaining that. The bottom line is that the program is "broken". Ok now another one Gimli. What about a Monk x / Sorcerer 8? The BAB would be at level 8/8 +10/+5? Can you verify this for me please? Actually if I was going to do it I would mostly use x-bow and darts and of course spells. I was going to make a party of 6 monks (with some multiclassing) So what do you think?

lols are not the materials of flames. they are laughing. lol@your stupidity would be a flame. heh heh (is that better?).

Also, I play D&D with pnp primarily. I highly doubt that you know more about 3rd than me. Feel free to test me if you wish! lol

"Gimli especially amd others. Thanks for explaining that. The bottom line is that the program is "broken". Ok now another one Gimli. What about a Monk x / Sorcerer 8? The BAB would be at level 8/8 +10/+5? Can you verify this for me please? Actually if I was going to do it I would mostly use x-bow and darts and of course spells. I was going to make a party of 6 monks (with some multiclassing) So what do you think?"

Yep it would be +10/+5! And I think a monk party would be interesting and fun, I say go for it!

"lols are not the materials of flames. they are laughing. lol@your stupidity would be a flame. heh heh (is that better?)."

Wow, you really got me there! You're so smart!

"Also, I play D&D with pnp primarily. I highly doubt that you know more about 3rd than me. Feel free to test me if you wish! lol"

It seems to me you have gaping holes in your knowlledge of IWD II - that's what this board is for, not PnP 3rd Edition. I think you've already been "tested" in this thread and I think the results are pretty plain.

The official rule (from the PHB) on weapon finesse says only "Choose one light weapon". There is nothing else I can find on that, so it would be the DM's call on whether or not this applies to unarmed fighting.

Also, the ability for a monk or paladin to dual without penalty to another class is not strictly in the rules. They are very clear on that point. A monk or paladin who duals to anything else loses the ability to advance in that class. Likewise, another class that duals to either can't advance the original any farther.

Finally, about the ease of use mod: it fixes some unintended problems with the game, and that certainly isn't cheating. As for the rest, that's up to you, which is why all the add-ins are optional.

<center>Nightowl2</center>