I am still not very good with the 3rd ed rules yet so need some suggestion from u guys. I am thinking of have a monk with rogue ability and from the description of Monk of the older order they can dual to rogue without losing the ability to advance in monk class.
Can I have a monk with only 1 level of rogue? I will be pumping his stats into hide, disable trap and open lock.
would I suffer any penalty or is there any drawback?
or is it better to forget the one level of rogue class all together?

Thanks for the help.

don't do it

it's quiet fine in the real 3rd ed rulez but not in icewinddale ...

u will loose the following abilities:

) hit monsters with fists that count as +3 weapons (level 16) (cause u can only reach 16 in a normal play ...)
) the advanced BAB for monks .. really don't know why

note i had a rogue with a single monk level - makes it possiböe to use the thundering claps ...

[ 10-22-2002, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Meriadoc Brandybuck ]

Hmmm... I've been thinking on a 10 level rogue, 20 monk. The sneak attack and rogue feats would be nice I think.

Meriadoc,

So basically I won't loose any monk ability right? I just won't be able to attain the level 16 for the +3 fist as we tend to max out around that level.

Well then I will replace my current rogue in the team, what I am trying to do is build up a monk for HOF. You see, I am currently in chapter 5-6 in normal game play and I want to play monk in HOF but lazy to baby sit it at the beginning. I fugure by the time I finish the game in normal, my monk / rogue would be about lvl 10 [img]smile.gif[/img]

thanks

From what I know about it, the problem is with the IWD II program's method of determining BAB. I believe when you dual class a monk to another class, what you lose is the special unarmed BABs that Monks get, so your attacks won't be as good as a pure Monk if you fight unarmed. Pure monks, fighting unarmed, get more attacks faster than any other class, including fighters, but it gets messed up if they multi-class (not because the rules say it should but because the game is "broken" that way). Look at the manual on page 137, that is the table whose bonuses you'd lose as a multi-classed monk.

Why not just play a pure monk and give skill points in hide,disable traps etc?

I have your solution

PLAY A PURE MONK.

A Monk can have Hide, Move Silently, Disable Traps, Open Locks, Search, etc.

Only problem is that the 2 most important ones, DT and OP uses 2 skill points for every level, which is still ok, because....

split your skill points into DT and OP for min 3 levels, then split between Hide and Move Silently. That ought to do great. Else you can put a point into OP and DT alternatively every level. That'll give you 8 levels for each by the end, which is cool enough I think for most uses, then again, why have DT in the first place.

Don't be scared of setting off traps, since by lv16 a monk evades most trap effects and saves against the rest. LOL

Not true, you only lose it when you use a weapon...I got a dual class and he gets it...the only problem is it takes a super-high intelligence to keep up on your rogue skills because they cost two when you level as monk.

By the official rules, Monks get 4 + int modifier skill points per level. So if your monk will be doing double duty as rogue, you do need to have at least a 12 int, and 14 would probably be better.

<center>Nightowl2</center>

Kalak, what level is your second class? From what I know, once you get +1 BAB with a second class, you lose the Monk's BAB bonuses fighting bare handed and with weapons.

Not if your other class is that order of monks favorite class...ie order of the old monks or whatever is rogue. But anyway, a level 1 rogue doesn't get a +1 which is my other class so I wouldn't be 100% certain, but my unarmed bonus is what it is supposed to be.

That's exactly why it is working then, because your rogue BAB is still 0; if you take one more rogue level, your BAB for fighting unarmed will get broken. The order and which class you multi to has nothing to do with the broken unarmed BAB. All that does is let you switch from being a monk to the other allowed class, and then back to a monk. If you chose a class to multi to outside of what the monk's order allowed, you couldn't go back to being a monk.

I am never great with all the technicality stuff. I check thru my monk/rogue stats and it seems that I am not suffering from any penalties for the monk class.
I do agree that using a pure monk and add pts to rogue skills should do the trick but for realistic point of view, monks are suppose to be holy person and don't steal right? [img]smile.gif[/img] So must add in a level of rogue.... just a thought.

"Monk" is a poor choice of term for this class. There is nothing religious about them at all. Consider, for instance, that a monk could be lawful evil as well as good. No, monks are not "holy" in the sense you mean.

"Ninja" might be a better term, but then everyone would expect them to be evil. Sometimes, ya just can't win ;)

<center>Nightowl2</center>

P.S. Hmm, why not "Martial Artist"? That might have been best.

A monk has a great difference from a ninja though they seem a bit similar in Wizardry 8...

But for me, a person who have lived in eastern culture for many years, I really understand where the word monk came from. He is not like what you think, only a martial artist.

Have you ever considered why paladins and monks will refuse rewards for the quests? And why can monk only be lawful?

Does that mean Dreadmasters of Bane aren't holy either? Holiness/religious devotion has nothing to do with being good-aligned. If Monks weren't devoted, why do they (even evil ones) turn down rewards if you have them do the talking after successful quests (and they say their beliefs prohibit it).

Ninjas also need not be evil be default - true neutral is more my idea of what a ninja is.

Oldest Story in the book... A ninja with a heart of gold. Like Robin Hood... or Yoshimitsu from Could Calibur. [img]smile.gif[/img]

it was Soul Calibur in my head... dont ask me were the Could came from. Sorry!

Robin Hood?
He is supposed to be one of the rangers or thieves...Moreover, a ninja is especially from the eastern country, Japan. Samurais are also from Japan. But nowadays, you cannot find any ninjas or samurais in Japan.
Monks are from China, but they adjust some factors in the dnd world. There many clues such as the fast movement, the toughness, the martial arts, the strong will saving, the stunning fist and the quiver palm. And now you still can see monks good at martial arts in China, if you go to the certain place.

Do you remember the eight chambers in the black raven monastery? If you really know a lot about the martial monks in China, you will know what the chambers refer to. There are something resembling the eight chambers test in China.

Really? What are the eight chambers (in the real world)? Now you've got me interested!

<center>Nightowl2</center>

http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/image/sh04.jpg
Due to my poor english composition skill and limited vocabulary, I cannot describe that very well. I just try to put my best foot forward.

All the things are known as a lengend, but some parts were proved to be true.

As a monk, you may not get married, and you must be a vegetarian. Also, you must stand the cruel training and the meditation which will last for a long time.
In acient China, when a monk wanted to give up and leave the temple called Shao Lin located in the middle part of China, known as the origin of the monk martial arts( you still can visit it now if you go there.) , he must pass one test to get the permission to leave.

In this test, the monk would be sent into a chamber full of traps and mazes.
And there were 18 copper-made monks in the very end part of this test. They were some kind of machine guarding the exit. They were hard to beat because they mastered excelent martial arts and they were made of hard metals.

A lot of monks who wanted to leave just turned back again.

Because of this test, the people who wanted to join the temple to be a monk needed to consider it again and again before they went there, and the monks in the temple were all well-trained.

So is it more like "American Ninja 3" or "Gymkata"? [img]smile.gif[/img]

What Jelly said was very true to us Asian. In our culture the monk is suppose to be a very spiritual, holy and powerful person.

If you are interested, here is story.
In the Shaolin temple the monks there are fame for their martial art. They form the backbone of all China's Kung Fu. They practice martial art as a form of execise. The temple is like a small cities with its own rules and regulations.
(1) No ladies visitor in the temple premises.
(2) Shave the head and nine minor burn holes to signify that he have left the world behind and devote his life to the monk cause.
(3) Will never take meat again only Vege
(4) Will never leave the temple unless on official business. If not must go thru the "eighteen Bronze monk formation" - And yes they have official business and sometimes they do the bidding of the empror.

The have different rows for each and every monks, some are like receptionist, specialize in PR [img]smile.gif[/img] some are like police which delt our punishment and they even have librarians, chefs etc.

Of course there are some black sheep (Like the one I have in my party [img]smile.gif[/img] )
But in general they are on the lawful good side.

Jellyfish and Timberwolf, thanks much for the information. I think we can see where the D&D monk got his start. I had heard of Shaolin, but wasn't up on the details.

And Jelly, don't worry about your English, it's better than you think. A bit more practice posting messages, and you'll be writing better than some native-born English speakers ;)

<center>Nightowl2</center>

Thank you ,Nightowl2.
I just arrived in USA for two months, but I learnt a lot in this short period.
I am now reading some english novels such as the dark elf trilogy which I have read in my first language, just trying to improve my english as fast as I can.
And also thank you mr. timberwolf for showing more details to my beloved monks.

Ninja's are more subtle than monks are.... They are more like a rogue/sorcerer than a monk. Monks are closer to berserkes in their mind over body skills. Moo. lol Still, a monk/rogue is going to be much more subtle than a normal monk.

What do you mean by 'Monks are closer to berserkes in their mind over body skills.'?

By that I mean that their body isn't their TRUE ability, its their mind that allows their body to do amazing/impossible things, like shatter lots of thick boards. A berserker isn't able to shrug off that blow to the head because he has a thicker skull (though he might), he is because his mind doesn't regisiter it. He ignores it rather than is harmed. Monks are more liek this, with the power from within and what not. Ninja aren't.

Just a note to you all, saying Monks come from China is as wrong as stereotypes get. Its not exactly a very novel idea, that monks are related to everything Chinese. And while Shao Lin is probably the most famous temple, it by far is not the only one. There are hundreds of temples within China's borders alone, and the Shao Lin are not the only ones to practice what is now known as Kung Fu. Japanese Shinto monks practiced much of the same principles as the Chinese and Mongolian ones, and Ninjas are also very rooted in spirituality and the supernatural. Essentially evil or neutral monks in Dnd very much resemble Ninjas (who were master spies and scouts rather than the stereotypical assassins). The path a monk took in a temple such as Shao Lin was not only that of martial arts, but more importantly that of meditation and contemplation to achieve perfection, as well as education in matters such as language and mathematics. It wasnt just a school for martial arts, and it wasnt common for families to send sons to various temples in China for them to acquire the skills of a monk. Monks were well trained not because of some fictionary copper adversary that would be more at home in a cheesy Hollywood B movie, but because of physical and mental determination, which was thought even before actual martial training began. The idea of Trials in mazes and such is pretty much a joke. Legend perhaps, but not exactly very firmly rooted in truth.
Samurais are still a distinct group in Japan, even though their role as bodyguards and elite warriors is now defunct. Japan still functions very heavily around Bushido, the Samurai, or rather military code of honor, very much like the code of chivalry, and there are still many many old families in Japan which still practice this code and maintain the skills of Archery and Kendo (Japanese fencing).

[ 10-30-2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Lifetime ]