**item spoilers DEAD ahead**
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I thought I'd drop in my final defensive item goals I want to equip my party with that are available legally (albeit, some randomly *) throughout the game [IWD + HoW + TotL.] Note that stats have been adjusted to account for potions, books, or items {brackets}.

Current party:
1. Human Paladin 18/00 18 18 4 13 17
Bathed-In-Blood
Mystery of the Dead $
Wailing of Virgins
Blessed Helm of Lathander
Shimmering Sash $
Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise
Boots of the North
Black Wolf Talisman
Ring of Free Action
Ring of the Warrior *

Cold 60%
-1 Save (-2 Breath)
Crushing -19 Piercing -19 Slashing -20 Missile -20
Notes: Prefer a fighter here, but came up with a solution to make a paladin really hard to hit and hit hard (GWE & RotW gives -2 THAC0 / +2 Damage.) "Virgins" is fear redundant, but I want its AC reducing power most. Hadn't much choice to make her an idiot to get that 18/00...

2. Gnome Fighter 18/00 18 18 9 8 {8}
Winter King's Plate $
OR
Studded Leather of Resistance +3
Sundered Shield of Tiernon
Cloak of Scintillating Colors
Helm of the Trusted Defender
Bone Marrow Belt *
Gauntlets of Weapon Skill
Boots of the North $
Clasp of Bron's Cloak $
Ring of Free Action
Ring of Greater Resistance (remove when donning leather armor)

Cold 75%
Fire 25%
-3 Spell
Crushing -13 20% Piercing -13 15% Slashing -16 65% Missile -13 15%
Notes: Wield leather armor and equip Morning Star +4: Defender to get 100% Slashing when fighting certain castle guards {they'll rip you a new one in HoF - be warned.} I purchase throwing axes until I get the magical one.

3. Dwarf Fighter/Cleric 19 {18} {20} 9 18 8
Vexed Armor
Waukeen's Defender $
Cloak of Invisibility *
Patriot Helm *
Golden Girdle
Kaylessa's Gloves *
Boots of Avoidance
Symbol of Corellon Larethian *
Ring of Free Action
Ring of Holiness

Cold 100%
Magic 10%
-2 Save
Regeneration
Crushing -9 Piercing -9 Slashing -15 Missile -13
Notes: Nearly impossible to hurt with magic - even before buffing!

4. Half-Elf Fighter/Druid {18/00} 18 18 7 20 {13}
Umber Hulk Plate $
The Argent Shield
Cloak of Displacement
Dead Man's Face
Girdle of Bluntness
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Boots of Grounding
Scarab of Defense *
Ring of Free Action
Ring of Greater Resistance

Elec 50%
Magic 25%
-2 Save (-3 Spell)
Crushing -12 Piercing -8 Slashing -12 Missile -12
Notes: Careful choice of items to get overall saves.

5. Elf Mage/Thief 18 19 17 18 10 10
Robe of the Watcher
Cloak of Protection +2
Rogue's Cowl $
Girdle of Ogre Blood $
Bracers of Blasting $
Boots of Speed
Kossuth's Blood
Edion's Ring of Wizardry $
Kontik's Ring of Wizardry

Magic 10%
-2 Save (-4 Spell)
Regeneration
Crushing -5 Piercing -5 Slashing -5 Missile -5
Notes: Obviously relies on spells for defense -- and running!

6. Half-Elf Bard 14 18 16 18 13 {20}
Lyre of Progression $
Mithran's Cloak *
Sune's Laurel of Favor
Golden Girdle
Bracers of Defense A.C. 6
Boots of the Fox *
Amulet of Metaspell Influence
Ring of Fire Resistance
Ring of Lesser Resistance *

40% Fire
-2 Save (-4 Spell)
Crushing -3 Piercing -3 Slashing -6 Missile -3
Notes: Obviously relies on spells for defense -- and running [and singing!]

Final note: These are base protections without further improvements with either weapons in hand (except my mention of the MS +4: Defender), spells, or bard singing.

Fun stats: What does it take for my team to reach level 30 [multiplying level 30 times six for single class and times twelve for multiclass?]
Bard 26,400,000
Fighter 33,000,000
Paladin 39,600,000
Fighter/Cleric 66,000,000 / 59,400,000
Fighter/Druid 66,000,000 / 62,100,000
Mage/Thief 90,000,000 / 52,800,000

-nearly a tenth of a billion experience points to finally get my Mage/Thief to reach Godhood ; )

As an aside you can get higher than Level 30 with Aurils bane installed I went thru Twice with the same party just to see and everyone bar my dual classes got to level 40, so my question would be what comes after Godhood? ;) , but good luck on your task, ps how long does it take to get 100% on your strength, I usually give up and go with it in the 90s.

Oh and I missed out on a lot of experience by not killing livestock;)

18/00 rollin' time:

The two front tanks should always have 18/00:

1. Paladin should take about an hour. So long as you have an alternate leader with INT of 10 plus (you'll actually need INT higher even for some chats) and CHA of 15 plus combined [Bard's perfect for this roll], then the paladin will be most valuable as a tank and minor spell caster -- and dumb.

2. Fighter only takes 30 minutes or less, so long as your goal is to keep INT/WIS/CHA 8 or more [I wanted my fighter's CHA a 10 so that the Belt brings it down to 8 - no NPC penalties above 7.]

3. Fighter/Cleric - LUCK!
I'll swallow a potion that kills a point of CON, but gives my F/C a STR of 19. She'll never take that armor off...

4. Fighter/Druid - Item
This one is even harder then a F/C to roll a 18/00 on for some reason - mine is 18/81 which will drop to 18/51 with a two potions to bring that WIS from 18 to 20 ; )

I hardly ever worry about pure strength rolls. There are tons of strength-increasing items around in the mid-late game. Before that, rely on spells or potions for Str.

If you decide to fight the group from Luskan that's come to kill the Whistling Gallows tavernkeeper, they have tons of items including (iirc) 2 sets of Gauntlets of Ogre Power. You can buy more right at the start of TotL. Add in the Girdle of Stromnos, and you don't really need to roll huge Str, especially for characters that need lots of points. You require 90 stat points just to get a dualclass F/D with minimum Int and Cha and 18 Str. I can't imagine rolling until getting 18/00 Str on top of that.

I must agree with Aerich on this one,my fighters have always ended up with strength of 19, and if memory serves sometimes better( it has been a while). The pure tedium of trying to achieve 100% is , I think, what puts me off.

.....or it could be my extreme lack of patience.

15 STR is all you need for warriors, even frontliners. [img]smile.gif[/img] I just do not see the point in rolling for more than an hour for ONE character. You might as well Dalekeep the stats already.

Excuse my naivety, but what is Dalekeep, and where do I find it presuming it is some sort of mod, I keep meaning to ask as I hear it getting banded around.

Dalekeeper, as it is called, is a save game editor. Basically, you can edit almost every aspect of your characters using dalekeep, from Items, to stats, to resistances.

......and I get it where, I tried to google it but got nothing, as far as I can see.

An 18/00 is still recommended on my part for the front two tanks when in HoF. It's certainly overkill when in modes less than HoF though. Level 1 characters get their clocks cleaned starting a HoF games with weak tanks IMHO.

Sure; you can fight and run a lot at the start, but I'd rather not run so much myself. If I were to use those gauntlets or belts of strength on my two front tanks, then I couldn't use the other items mentioned on them. Take a close look at just how damning my paladin is with the choice of items! This paladin should be able to win a fight with any other paladin on a one on one fight. This is how I design a final character. I use the Strength spell on my F/D until I can get those strength gauntlets in HoW. My bard can then fill those spots with the Web spell or Acid Arrow. Oh, yea.

Admittedly, my Dwarf F/C is a wonder to behold with that lucky 18/00 roll, so I took advantage of it by bumping up her AC two points with those cool gloves (sacrificing my bard's ideal armor for those in the know.)

Dalekeeper: I feel better inside if I struggle through my rolling and random item fights. The idea is to develop the ideal items after you acquire the team first. This kind of planning is of course not recommended for a first time run through the game: spoil city. It's about the beauty of a powerful team getting a tough enemy to explode all around you...and look cool doing it!

I don't much understand the need for 18/00 either. In HOF you get strength of one very quickly (after the orc caves with F/C IIRC). That gives you decent strength for everything resembling a hard fight, and there are plenty of potions for when thing get really hairy.

And isn't melee in HOF just a good way to get yourself killed?

HoF melee:

I like to melee in HoF. You get no summons at the start of IWD, so those 18/00 tanks come in handy from the start. My objective is "dream team" via reverse focus: the tanks are the keys and they need good rear support to survive. It works like a charm. Always give tanks best weapons - for sure.

Tactic example:
I just finished Dragon's Eye level 3 last night with all the Cold Wights. My magic users held them with Web and Entangle then buffed and anti-buffed [enemy.] That resulted in my paladin and fighter going in like lawn mowers and had body parts flying all over the place. I even dropped a level 9 fireball right on top of them without fire protection [my paladin actually has a 30% fire/cold cloak just now] -- they usually half-save when well buffed [the enemy on the other hand...] Note that I like calling beetles (especially the acid spay ones - AWAY from fighters) and other summons at the rear to keep the onslaught down a bit [they can't hit Cold Wights, but they distract nicely.] Also, throw a Chromatic Orb or three when they are anti-buffed to help lighten the load.

Or...the fighters can just stand guard while you hold the Cold Wights and Spike Growth, Fireball, and other such spell them to death. This is just not as fun to me though. Note though that since I've done the battle before, I do throw a Spike Growth way to the back to catch those damn snowball skellies.

[ 06-19-2006, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Roboghost ]

STR becomes even more of a liability on HoF mode. CON and DEX makes you live longer, not STR.

The short-term benefits of STR becomes even more glaring on HoF, due to the rapid levelling of your men.

Your Dragon Eye's example is flawed for justifying STR, because it was not your tanks' STR that made the battle easy, but the spells Web and Entangle.

An Enfeebled Fighter could hit a webbed Wight too.

In my HoF games, I use one tank, with two reserve tanks. My Paladin was near-nigh untouchable during battles due to his rock-bottom AC( -20 and below by Dragon's Eye) and saving throws. Was STR the reason? No.

Roboghost got a point. Str helps early in Hof where there are no Str rings. Furthermore, his party setup is fighter singles at the front.

Personally, my last resort is melee because no matter how much my AC is down, i still get hit. I rather go for disablers + summons + missile. Then go for status altering weapons. Str don't matter so much to me.

Nah, Str doesn't help all that much. It's darn hard to hit anything as it is, and even a goblin will be about even against a high Str tank in the beginning. Can an 18/00 tank stand unaided against a single goblin at lvl 3 or 4?

I started off a HoF game with a dc F/D doing the "tanking" - with 15 Str. Then I switched over to a F/Ill - not getting hit is the primary aim of a tank in HoF. I do use a lot of melee on the higher levels, but only after spells and tactics whittle down the enemy. Even on medium to high levels, there are many fights in the game where a good AC, high Str tank will suffer greatly. Against frost giants and in Lower Dorn's, for example, not to mention against the spectral guards in TotL. Spells are the key, not Str.

That is why I went for a defensive thread...

Without the good gear, you're dead *splat*!

I guess it is a matter of playing style. I think you need it all to have fun and win with grace and devastation. I see strong tanks as reducing the battle time with an extra 6 points of damage PER HIT [and you hit them - but you also get a better chance to hit with the extra STR.] Assuming normal weapons: that would be and extra 15 points of damage per round [2.5 attacks] for a 13th level paladin and 21 points of damage per round [3.5 attacks] for a 13th level fighter. Ultimately this allows more battles between rest periods due to the fact that you'd run out of spells faster if the tanks weren’t putting in some heavy damage between spell attacks.

True; I keep them [tanks] away from the brutes [Verbeegs' are the first that I fear direct tank contact with after the little red beetles and goblins in Easthaven - my support staff keeps my tanks in the mix for most fights except those special few.] I use the items I acquire to keep my Gnome fighter smiling at those spectral guards at the castle [100% slashing.] Those guys are the only creatures that can touch my tanks after they acquire their full defensive gear mentioned at start - and a little help from the rear - not counting my 100% slashing formula for those devastating castle guards.

Final summation for 18/00:
1. More carrying capacity
2. Shorter fights allows more battles between rests
3. More spell slots
A. mage's Strength spell [example: replace with Web]
B. cleric's Strength of One [example: replace with Dispel Magic]
4. Sell the strength potions and buy better gear, scrolls, and ammo
5. Take better advantage of your own critical hits - nothing like seeing a creature explode after a 40 point *whack*.
6. Low maintenance - allowing for concentration of juicy spells to protect you and bomb the enemy. An example here is that buffs have time limits, so instead of swallowing a strength potion, it would be better to use the reducing sands of buffing time for a potion that protects from fire instead. This could allow for an extra level 10 Fireball spell on the heads of your tanks in the center of the carnage.

I admit there is a difference between 18/00 and 15 Str. However, the difference between 18/70 and 18/00, for example, is negligible.

If you carry enough casters (my most recent party features 3 mage casters, 2 clerical, 2 druidic, and 5 multi or dual class warriors), the extra spell slot or two doesn't really matter.

In terms of responding to the your list:

1) you don't need huge carrying capacity - if you have 3 or more warriors with 18/xx Str, you should be fine with a little inventory management.

2) Assuming 18/00 Str compared to 18/70, the damage differential is 3. Your garden variety medium-grade monster might have 150-200 HP. You might get done a round faster. There's no real effect on the number of battles. Even if you conserve a few spells, you probably won't walk to the next level on HoF without resting.

3) See above - Two lvl 2 spells for Strength won't break you unless you have very few arcane casters. I never cast Strength of One - I prefer Prayer or Animate Dead.

4) There are no potions that give 18/00 Str. You can get 18 (which I normally sell even if I could use them) or giant strength - if you get giant strength potions, wouldn't your 18/00 warriors use them? Money isn't an issue once you're past Dragon's Eye, anyway, and I'd be surprised if you got more than 2000 gold for all the 18 Str potions you can find.

5) Okay, but even comparing 18/00 Str to 15 Str, you only get an extra 12 damage on a critical hit. That's not even a round of melee damage.

6) I don't view any character as low maintenance in HoF. Even a well-protected tank can get cut off and slain. However, if you have a gonzo AC or hefty damage resistance, what does it matter if you take an extra round or two to dispatch the enemy? The time limits on buffs, except ones of fixed duration like Defensive Harmony, aren't much of a factor either. The crazy levelling in HoF means that duration is not problematic for any spells whose duration depends on caster level. Additionally, I don't view your fireball example as particularly persuasive. Protection from Fire is a 3rd lvl priest spell that can be cast by cleric or druid, with a duration of 1 turn/lvl. If I'm going to be casting fireball in the vicinity of my tanks, I can guarantee that I cast PfF right after I finish resting. ;) I sell all my PfF potions, except a few I reserve for fighting Belhifet.

----

Sorry, I don't mean to be overly critical. I just don't want anybody to get discouraged about trying HoF because they don't have the patience to roll up a Paladin with 18/00 Str. 18/00 is useful enough, but I don't view it as worth rolling an extra half hour per character. Not having means you spend a tiny bit more time, especially at the start, and may have to use items to get very high Str. It's not a big deal.

My play style is to rely on very versatile, spellcasting characters, most of whom can tank adequately if needed. One tank will draw the fire, with the help of summons - it need not always be the same character.

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Your idea of starting a thread for defensive items was good - too bad we went off on a bit of a tangent.

Did you add the Ring of Aura Transfusion anywhere? I know it gives a penalty of 5% magic resistance and -2 on saves vs spell, but the rate of regeneration is incredible. If your tactics involve the disruption of enemy casters ASAP, the penalties won't be that bad. It's fantastic for a paladin; you don't really need the Ring of the Warrior for a pally, as it will have a very good natural thaco - better than anything except a pureclass fighter. If you used Waukeen's Defender and the Ring of Aura Transformation instead of Mystery of the Dead and Ring of the Warrior, you'd give up 1 AC point and 1 thaco point in exchange for 5% magic resistance, no net saving throw penalty, and fast regeneration (better than a potion).

You might also consider using the Great Shield +3 (found in at least 2 locations, randomly) for your pally or fighter - it gives a flat 15% resistance to slashing, piercing and crushing attacks. Used on a tank in conjunction with the bard's War Chant means you get a cool 25% resistance to all physical attacks except missile, not to mention any other items you may have. In passing, I don't think the special protection of Mystery of the Dead (against instant-death spells) is much use; spellcaster disruption means that you won't have FoD or PW:Kill used against you much, and PW:K only kills up to 60 HP. Therefore, you will be immune to PW:K unless you are quite injured. FoD has no HP limit that I'm aware of, but you get a normal save, which should be easily made by a pally or a gnomish/dwarven fighter or fighter multiclass.

Just to see how the 18/00 works out...I went charging into Dragon's Eye level 5 without much buffing and some summons. I ended up fairly bloody, but I made up until I got cocky and charged into the archer chamber - where my fighter bit it. I reloaded and decided to fight my more cautious route ; )

Anyway:
Ring of Aura Transfusion
Only Usable By: Mage (single, dual, & multi-class)

The pally can't use this cute item, but if you want to replace the Ring of the Warrior on the pally, then it could be replaced by the Ring of Reckless Action [available in the same spot as the Aura ring.] The would require that the pally never went into battle without that Protection from Evil spell going at all times due to the rings -2 AC and the spells +2 AC. This gives that nice extra +1 attack. This sacrifice would nix your Potion of Holy Transference -- but this can be picked up non-random in the castle tomb, so it could work out.

Great Shield:
It kills two THAC0 points and I hate to sacrifice it. My objective was to get that AC low [using the bard for the 10% resistance when needed] and THAC0 up. It will be real hard hitting my pally with a bard standing behind and the Protection from Evil spell going -- plus other buffs on top. I do tend to fear the Beholder [wish the shield makes one immune to the Death Ray] a bit, so the Mystery of the Dead makes me feel better when I zoom up to one to beat on -- along with some willing summons' victims...

Magic resistance shields:
I prefer to keep the priests equipped with the two MR shields -- they are key supports for the tanks to supply healing (cleric) and summon distraction (druid) when the tanks are in trouble. They also guard the rear weaklings, so I prefer them to be very resistant to spells and such.

Whoops, ok, not for the paladin. I have my ring of AT on a F/M/T that has transformed from an archer into a melee fighter. ;)

Keep the Mystery of the Dead for fights against beholders, then, but I'd still use the Great Shield most of the time. It gives +4 AC (tied for the best of any shield) and significant damage resistance. Out of curiosity, how far have you gone in HoF? The -2 to Thaco won't mean much once your paladin's level is in the high teens.

I need something to be clarified first, before I go on any further. Have you actually completed HoF-mode at least twice, once without 18/00 STR, and then another with 18/00 STR? If 15 STR is too extreme for you, try 18 STR then.

I could go on and on about the barely existential benefits of 18/00 STR on HoF mode, but the best way to convince you would be for you to play the game itself without 18/00 STR.

Dragon's Eye is still pretty early in the game. When my party was being pounded by things such as Frost/Fire Giants, Remohrazs(sp?), scary-things-with-7ApR from Burial Isle, Wailing Virgins, Harpies, etc... STR was never on my mind.

My question was never, "Damn, I wish I had more STR."

Nay, it was more likely to be, "Damn, I wish I had better AC/had the immunity to this effect/had summons/had more resistances/had this/had that/etc..." but never STR.

Once I reached the Severed Hand, I stopped memorising Strength already, because there was no point. Really.

[ 06-22-2006, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Naw...rather cast less spells and hit harder meeself.

There is one possibility to survive level 1 characters and that is to go ahead and fire up the cheat console and import defensive and offensive items in so that the fights are a bit more even. I'd suggest items are common such as Large Shield +1, but not rare such as Bathed in Blood. To keep it fair as possible: you can't sell them [of course; most you'll probably end up keeping from the lists below anyhow.]

Also, items that you can't find at all in the game such as:
ARMOR:
Silver Bracer of Kedl KEDL
Belt of Piercing BELT04
Full Plate Mail PLAT04
Mithril Chain Mail +4 CHAN06
Elven Sewn Cloak ELFCLCK
Elven Sewn Gloves ELFGLOV
Elven Sewn Boots ELFBOOT
Illian's Hunting Helm HELMHUN
Greater Ring of the Warrior URING2A
Ring of the Warrior Thief URING5B
Boots of the Forgotten Ones BOOTFOR
WEAPONS:
Paladin:
Morning Star of Action +4 UMSTR5A
Bhaal's Fire (+3) ULSWD5B
Long Bow +3: Repeater ULBOW4A
Fighter:
Benorg's Truth (+4 Axe)
Light Crossbow of Speed: The Army Scythe XBOW06
Cleric:
War Hammer +4: Defender U1HAM5B

AND...

WAND:
Monster Summoning WAND10

[ 06-23-2006, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Roboghost ]

Why should you want to make the game more even? You don't have to use cheats to make fights even. Simply go and switch HoF off.

What's the point of making the game more difficult and then using cheats to make it less difficult?

EDIT: edited for clarification

[ 06-24-2006, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: ZFR ]

Are you saying that even WITH 18/00 STR, you still cheat? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...ons/icon34.gif

I don't quite follow your logic really... why bother with HoF mode in the first place then? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...ons/icon11.gif

Is that question directed to me?
Then No, I don't say with 18/00 STR you cheat. I was referring to CLUAAing in items. why did you assume I did?

EDIT: in case my previous post was misleading I edited it.

[ 06-24-2006, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: ZFR ]

I was responding to Roboghost.