Yes ... a spawn from my previous post. Lets compare the mc f/mage built of gnomes and elfs.

Is 1 extra slot of spell per level good enough to offset the elf who get +1 in sword and bows? Most of the time, my f/m spends 80% of the time in bows.

The gnome has that helm. I tried one of these but it still doesn't stop the gnome being whacked. It still has to rely on mirrors+sk.

Does 2 of the advantage above offset the advantage of the elf?

Just wondering. Nothing much to do right now.

You also need to take into account the fact that the gnome gets a whopping +5 on saves against spells. To me that outweighs all the other factors put together. The only thing that slightly balances it is the use of necromancy spells.

I would take a Gnome over an Elf for a few reasons:

1)When you advance far enough, a +1 THAC0 doesn't matter much
2)They can survive longer (higher CON)
3)They can survive longer (+5 to Saves vs. Spells)
4)They're +1 to INT helps the Mage side of things a lot
5)In this game, the +3 AC is just awesome (of course they're both still going to get hit, but +3 is significant, and will help those Mirror Images and Stoneskins last longer)
6)They're just flat out cooler

It all comes down to magic. Does the loss of necromancy bother you? To me, the main downside is the loss of Skull Trap, which hurts the F/Ill's ability as a spell bomber. Also, some of the necro spells are decent for a spellsword.

Gnomes are better. Have you ever heard of six elves beating the game at level 1?

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Midget Gems - Heroes in their own lunch time.

You lost me ZFR

huh? 6 elves?

Elf looks like legolas. Gnome looks like frodo with a beard.

Klorox, I think ZFR is referring to this thread

Spells aside, I'd say that gnomes are a slightly better option: gnomes have the better saves, possible 18 Con, +3 AC from helm, and +1 Int vs. the elves' +1 with bows/longswords, possible 19 Dex giving another +1 to hit with bows, charm resistance, and max 17 Con.

Spell-wise, it's about your party composition. Do you have another caster? How good is that caster; is it a bard, another specialist, or multi or dual classed? If you have a good second (and third?) option within your party to cast the necromancy spells, then the party isn't hurt by having a specialist instead of a generalist as a melee mage.

Edit: of course, having an illusionist filling the F/M role means you will probably never use spells like Ghoul Touch and Lich Touch. Does that bother you? ;) Chill Touch, too - a nearly worthless spell...

[ 02-02-2006, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

I tend to lean towards a specialist myself as I will be using bards from now on.

Most of the time, my f/m is on bows unless there is an emergency. That means more than 50% of the time on bows. I wonder how the +1 with bows stack up for damage against gnomes without +1 for bows.

Does anyboby knows how to do a matematical comparison?
(obviously I don't LOL....)

Is the charm immunity for elves really in the game? I know that it is supposed to be, but I've never had an elf resist charm. It's meaningless anyway you'll hardly ever need/use that immunity.

On the math, a +1 is very simple. It means that the elf will hit 5% more than the gnome. Although, if you're using a long bow the elf actually gets +2 - +1 for the long bow elf bonus, and +1 for the 19 dexterity. So that means that the elf has a 10% better chance of hitting than than the gnome.

Now how much that matters depends. If you're facing a wolf (AC 7) and have a base THAC0 of 17, the gnome will hit 50% of the time and the elf will hit 60% of the time. The elf will do 20% more damage, and who cares. If you're facing an human cleric (AC 2) with base THAC0 15 the gnome will hit 35% of the time and the elf will hit 45% of the time so the elf is doing 29% more damage.

It all depends on the battle.

Anyway I think your argument that your F/M will be using bows unless there is an emergency is the reason why you shouldn't worry so much about how well the character will do with a bow. You want the character who is most effectively in the emergencies that will arise, not the character who is most effective at killing garden variety vermin.

And to me, that's the argument for the gnome. In your emergencies you WILL need to make some saves against spells. Early on the gnome will likely have a save of 10 while the elf will have a save of 15. Meaning the gnome will save twice as often. In the midgame this is less important, and the gnome will probably save about 50% more often, and certainly by the time you reach high levels the benefits are pretty small. But even then the gnome has other advantages, and the only real disadvantage (in emergency situations when you should be casting spells) is the lack of necro spells.