Let me start by saying that I dispise thieves, since IMHO they run out of usefulness very early on., and further experience spent on them is experience wasted.

That being said, I do need them for opening locks and dealing with traps. I've thought level 7 is a perfect time to dualclass a thief, since they can get OL and F/R T up to about 90 or higher, and they also gain evasion, a useful ability. My problem in my last game was dealing with those traps after my character had dualclassed out of the thief class, but had not yet gotten his thief skills back (essentially having no thief in the party, which sucks, just ask NobleNick!). So, for my new game, I plan on actually using two of them (weird, eh... read on!).

I plan on having two human characters start off as thieves. The first one will dual class into a cleric at thief level 3, 4 or 5, so that I will have my thief skills back before I even need them. They will be low level skills, but should be good enough for the early game (as I gain some experience with the IWD world, I'm starting to realize how good an essentially single classed cleric is as well, and a cleric with 3, 4 or 5 levels of thief won't be far behind a single classed cleric. There seem to be a lot of undead in this game, and my characters are always taking some damage!). I want to dual as early as possible, without really handicapping my team (either with lack of thief skills since this character will be the only one for a time, or with lack of spells and turning ability). Since my team will include a bard, I might just have him memorize a ton of knock spells and have this character maximize F/R Traps.

The second character will switch from thief to mage at level 8. I had originally thought level 7, but this shouldn't make a difference in the long run of things, and I'm pretty sure a thief gains an extra proficiency at level 8. I also don't think you really need a mage so much in this game, so I do not mind waiting a while longer for a spellchucker.

So far the party is like this:

Thief (3,4,5)>Cleric
Thief (8)>Mage (with ToTL a generalist is probably best... might go illusionist since the bard can pick up any restricted spells)

I'll definitely add in a paladin and a bard, two really fun, powerful classes. I'd also like a druid, but will go multiclass here. I think the party can use more tanks (it's too bad ironskin isn't a spell in this game). This leaves only one slot. As I said, I like tanks, and this party is lacking a pure-classed fighter. I'll probably insert a gnome fighter here, since I've always liked gnomes and they can use that awesome helmet from Khuldahar.

To summarize, I have:

Human Paladin
Half-Elf Fighter/Druid multiclass
Gnome Fighter (see edit below)
Human Thief(3,4,5)/Cleric dualclass
Human Thief(8)/Mage dualclass
Half-Elf Bard

Eventually, when both thieves have dualled completely (gaining back their thief abilities), I plan on having the cleric play just like a normal cleric, even wearing heavy armor (you can still search for traps, just not disarm them). The mage will be played just like any mage/thief, shooting arrows while not casting spells.

I would really appreciate responses and input on this party. I'm still pretty much a newb at this game, so please do not spoil me too much. I would really like input on the two thief idea, and what levels I should dualclass at. And please don't suggest to me that I should try backstabbing and sneaking around, it doesn't appeal to me.

Thanks a lot everyone, for both your input and reading through my babbling post (I hope it isn't too bad!). [img]smile.gif[/img]


EDIT:: Would I be better off replacing that gnome fighter with a second paladin? I guess it comes down to what is better: draw upon holy might boosting awesome stats or grandmastery in greatswords...??

[ 10-11-2005, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: krunchyfrogg ]

<font color = mediumspringgreen>krunchyfrogg,

Question: What sucks worse than having NO Thief? Answer: Having TWO Thieves! LOL! I see what you are trying to do; but there has got to be a better way to do it then screwing up two characters.

I assume you know that I have dealt with this by having one DC F(13)/T, and fill in the thiefless void by hiring in a 7th character (Thief). I also assume you do not want to do this. So, the next thing I would suggest is a MC F/T, (which is the ONE AND ONLY case where I would suggest a multiclass Fighter mix in a normal difficulty game) or an MC M/T. So your former DC Thieves get traded in for:

MC Fighter/Thief
MC Mage/Cleric

-OR-

MC Mage/Thief
DC Fighter(9_to_13)/Cleric

(With a Fighter(12_or_13) DC being preferred if you are doing HoW. You can muddle through without a Cleric in IWD if you have a Thief and excellent Fighter support; but having at least one Cleric in HoW is almost mandatory.)

I would keep the Fighter over having a 2nd Pally: You get the benefits of stacked PP all the time, not just when casting a spell. If you let The Fighter go to 5 PP in Axe, he will be an awesome ranged warrior with the returning Axe that shows up mid-game. If you also let him go to 3 PP in Mace he will be covered for enemies that are immune to piercing and slashing damage.

(I just finished DE. The culminating fight was VERY challenging the first time through, and was still challenging for my second party. But this time was a breeze. My Axe warrior had the main antagonist "badly wounded" before it could even close to melee: Awesome! Far and away my best ranged warrior, and she was only CLVL 7 with 4 PP in Axe! (Don't worry, the 5th PP, and the extra 1.0 ApR that it brings, is coming soon...)

BTW - Make sure that one of the weapons in which your Pally specializes is LARGEsword.

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

[ 10-12-2005, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

Thanks for the input, NobleNick. The thing is (regarding thieves) is that after both are activated, the only difference between a single classed cleric and my thief(3)>cleric is 6 less hit points. That's hardly a sacrifice IMHO.

I played with this party last night, and I think I'm going to keep on with it a bit longer and see if it clicks. The t/c has 80 in f/r traps, and only 25 in ol. Orrick has a belt for sale which should help me out a little bit along the way. I plan on memorizing quite a few knock spells for a while, and after my thief(7 or 8)>mage has his thief levels back, I will memorize better spells like mirror image and acid arrow.

My only minor complaint so far is that the t/c has only one quick weapon slot, as will the t/m. At least I can pause on the inventory screen so this won't be a problem.

As I said elsewhere in more detail, one way to get around the thiefless void in difficult areas when dualclassing is to start with 5 characters and add in the thief later on. You could potentially add a thief at the beginning of Dragon's Eye, get up to a decent level by DE lvl 5, deal with all the traps, and then dual over to your class of choice.

There are two positives to this strategy - takes away the admittedly minor XP loss/aggravation of your dual dualclass thief strategy, enables you to free up another character for effective multi or dual classing if you wish, and gives the other five characters a little extra XP bonus because you will only split early XP between 5 instead of 6.

<font color = mediumspringgreen>You are welcome, krunchyfrogg,

To each his own. Given that you are going to do this, I'd advise going to Thief(5) before the DC.

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

Howcome?

BTW, I have some huge updates here.

My party just finished the second level of Dragon's Eye. I have been playing on insane difficulty to get these dual classes going.

I dualled the t>c at level 3, and she's currently an 8th level cleric. The t>illusionist dualled at level 7, and just hit level 8 as an illusionist. The game is playing well, and I can sense my party really starting to roll now.

My bard had equipped that amulet that allows an extra 2nd level spell, and memorized 4 knock spells. I never used one of them.

While wearing the gond belt, the t>ill has about 100 in traps and locks skills (can't remember exactly) and if there is ever a problem, the bard can still sing the song that bumps skills by 10%.

Edit: I looked up the party for an accurate report:

Paladin 7
Fighter/Druid 7/8
Thief(3)/Cleric 8 (traps:85 locks:35) --wearing belt of gond
Gnome Fighter 8
Thief(7)/Illusionist 8 (traps: 100 locks: 85)
Bard 9 (lore: 97 pickpocket 90)

[ 10-13-2005, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: krunchyfrogg ]

It's a good party, even with my reservations about the thieves. The only real weakness, IMO, is the lack of missile support for fighters with good bows and crossbows. There's hardly any good shortbows in the game.

Aerich, are there any good slings or (preferably returning) missiles?

My t>ill is the only character using a shortbow, but I'd prefer to give him a buckler for added defense. Supposedly there are mage daggers with added spell slots which I'll probably end up giving him.

Item Spoilers ahead
*
*
*

Yes, there are good slings. At least two of +3 or over, iirc, not counting the Giant Killer (+4 against giants). The shopkeeper in the Severed Hand also sells unlimited +2 sling bullets, which helps. However, the good slings come later in the game than good bows. The best one is in HoW.

There are two returning missiles. One +2 axe in Dragon's Eye, and apparently one +4 dagger near the end of HoW. I've never found the dagger, for whatever reason. Don't know if it's random.

There are several mage daggers; the +4 mage dagger also grants a bit of magic resistance. Sorry, you won't be able to get a buckler for your thief. For defence, you'll have to use primarily spells, robes, rings, and dexterity.

Why no buckler?

Thieves cannot equip shields in IWD, and the shields come in small, medium and large (body). No bucklers in the game at all.

I have bucklers in my game. As a matter of fact, my thief>illusionist and bard are both using them now.

Gamebanshee has a pretty good item list, and there are no magical bucklers on it. :(

[ 10-15-2005, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: krunchyfrogg ]

" Would I be better off replacing that gnome fighter with a second paladin? I guess it comes down to what is better: draw upon holy might boosting awesome stats or grandmastery in greatswords...??"

This is a complete no-brainer. Grand Mastery is so powerful that you're foolish to forgo it. There is a case to be made for one paladin, but any power party HAS to have a grand master. And a Gnome is one of the best with teh saving throws and the helmet. I prefer axes, but large swords are great too.

"There's hardly any good shortbows in the game."

Messenger of Sseth is an excellent weapon. It's only drawback is the low enchantment, but the extra apr really makes a huge difference. I'd call it the best missile weapon bar none.

As to slings I think the selection is pretty poor. You can get decent weapons for two slingers, but after that you're in troble. The only really good thing about the slings is the strength bonus - they are best used by characters with exceptional strength, or the ability to get it (DoHM).

I think a buckler for a T->M is a pretty good choice. You're not going to do much damage with a bow anyway. In easy fights why bother, and in tough fights you ought to be casting spells. I'll take +1 AC (melee) and carry darts or a crappy sling over the bow.

It also kinda stinks that it's a longbow (see the minimum strength or 12?).
http://gamebanshee.com/icewinddale/e...gerofsseth.jpg

I chose to use a buckler because I found a mage dagger +3. You can't take it off, or I would lose the bonus spells. I can't put anything else in that offhand, so may as well get a small bonus in there.

How do you have bucklers? A mod?

I have to disagree. It is definitely one of the most useful, and extremely powerful for the point in the game where it appears, and probably the best "fixed" (e.g. non-random) bow. However, I'd vote for the Hammer longbow (base of 4 APR) and the Repeating Heavy Crossbow (base 3 APR) before the Messenger of Sseth. The other great ability it has is the low init modifier (weapon speed), which makes it better for magic disruption than conventional bows and the +2 throwing axe.

See my earlier point to krunchyfrogg about the party's weakness being lack of gonzo missile weapons. Only warriors can use the longbows and crossbows (and axe) that are the foundation of a well-balanced and devastating long range party.

Aerich, no mods. The bucklers are sold right from the prologue for me.

I have TotL installed, that's about it.

Yeah, I just remembered the bucklers from Pomab's. No magical bucklers anywhere that I'm aware of. I haven't used anything other than a fighter/thief for so long that I forget what's available to a single-classed thief. ;) You may find that the best "armor" for a thief or mage in the early game is magical bracers + a ring. I don't think a shield stacks with them, although armor certainly does.

I'd rather use a bow. If you use the extra spell slots from a mage dagger on spells that you only memorize one of, then cast those spells, you won't lose the extra slot. Otherwise, say if you memorize 5 Chromatic Orbs and only use a couple before switching out the mage dagger, you will lose the last one.

I gotta admit that I prefer using a multiclass thief in IWD1. I've tried both fighter/thieves and mage/thieves. if I was pushed to pick one, I'd pick the mage/thief, cuz it really adds to the party's arcane firepower. But a fighter/thief can be a rather potent combo as well.

IMHO, if I'm going to multiclass a thief, I'm going with a FMT. I have enough Fighters, the Thief levels are worthless after a certain point, and I may as well add a backup mage into the party.