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What's your choice for the most powerful party possible in this game? What proficiencies do you give these characters?
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It's all relative krunchyfrogg I think. One of the really good things about this game, as opposed to BG/BG2, is that all of the weapon types are represented by different levels of magical item. From the mundane to the magnificent. I'm sure we could all give you names (and locations) for our favourites.
The most powerful party...? Some might say a group mainly composed of fighter/dual characters for the grand mastery of those luvverrly weapons! Plus a bard for the chant and a paladin as a leader. |
"The most powerful party possible" is also difficult to pin down because of two things:
1) Stage of the game - a party of fighters to be dual classed to spellcasters ends up powerful, but may suffer at various stages of the game before its potential is realized. I've found a bard to be immensely powerful from lvl 11-20 or so, but a lvl 30 mage or cleric is significantly more powerful than a lvl 30 bard. 2) Playing style and personal preference - what's better? 2 clerics and 1 druid, or 2 druids and 1 cleric? See what I mean? With those qualifications out of the way, I believe what best distinguishes a very strong party is balance. Multiple casters of arcane and divine spells, excellent melee skills, good archery, and enough thieving to get by. |
<font color = mediumspringgreen>krunchyfrogg,
I agree with most of what has already been posted in reply; but notice that you did not get a direct answer to your question. Having completed IWD and HoW (on Normal), and being close to finishing ToTLM, I feel I have learned some valuable lessons. Implementing those lessons --> My next powergaming party destined for IWD/HoW/TotLM would probably look something like the below; which I now offer up as what I consider to be an excellent attempt to answer your question: -------------------------------------------------------------- 1.) DC Fighter[13]/Neutral_Cleric (***** Mace, *** Sling) 2.) DC Fighter[13]/Druid (***** Scimitar, *** Sling) 3a.) Gnome Thief 3b.) DC Fighter[9]/Illusionist (**** Axe, ***LongBow) 4.) DC Good_Cleric[12]/Ranger (** Flail, ** Sling) 5.) DC Fighter[12]/Thief (***** LongSword, *** LongBow) 6.) H-Elf Bard (* whatever, * crossbow: ) -------------------------------------------------------------- You have already noticed a small problem: That there are 7 characters listed, and a party can only have 6. I will explain, in turn. First off, 5 of 6 characters (not including 3a.) are melee artists. 4 of the 6 are at least LVL 12 in a Warrior class in the late game, and 3 of those sport 5 stars in their melee weapon. This is a very "in-your-face" physical party of very tough, high-HP hombres; and that is a very good thing. You want as many heavy hitters as you can get, to leverage the advantage that the Bard will give you. Characters 1 and 4 cover your Cleric needs with 1 Cleric in the early and mid game and 2 in the late game (and you will be very needy in HoW/TotLM). May need to hold off DC of character 4 until after first tough area in HoW. Characters 2 and 4 give you gobs of Druid spells in the late game. (The extra weapon proficiency point gained by going F[13]/D, as opposed to F[9]/D, is not as important as the extra 4 THAC0 plus the extra 1/2 ApR: The Druid gets to benefit from these latter 2 even when shapeshifted.) Pick Scimitar for close in weapon for the F/D, to reduce party's Priest-heavy dependency on crushing weapons. The C/R will have lots of low level slots from the Cleric that can eventually be crammed with the Ranger's Druid spells. In addition to a smattering of curative spells, the Clerics can also load up about 4 to 5 deep on "Recitation" and "Prayer." In tough fights: one Cleric casts Prayer and the other casts Recitation. These spells stack with each other -AND- with the War Chant. This gives ALL your DC warriors FAR BETTER stats than a minimally buffed Paladin, making characters 1 thru 5 appear to the enemy as "Tanks of Slaying." The Cleric pair can alternate spells, and so perform this spectacular spell stacking feat TEN or more times between rests! Also, both Clerics can "raise dead;" so the party can always restore itself unless both of these very tough guys go down. Character 6 (Bard) will make an O.K. stand-in Mage for the early game; but her main reason for existence is to turbo charge the other 5 beefy party members you have. When the Bard hits clvl 11, tune her to "War Chant of the Sith," crank the volume and break off the knob! If my Bard EVER uses her excellent weapons, it is because the party is in very deep kimshee, indeed. War Chant is just so powerful that I keep my Bard singing if even one of my warriors is still in his right mind and swinging a weapon. The Bard also makes it very easy to enter every fight with every party member at 100% health, without sleeping. Pinch your pennies and make the "Bardic Horn of Valhalla" one of your first purchases [if not THE first major purchase]. This is one of the finest pieces of equipment your party will ever own. If you can acquire it before DE, it will make your travels there so-o-o much easier: Berserkers ROCK in the early to mid-game, lose a little umph in late IWD [but are always useful to some extent], and regain some steam in HoW and TotLM.) This brings us to Characters 3a, 3b, and 5. DC Illusionist (3b.) is not quite a "Battle Mage," but sports most of the virtues of a veteran Fighter and full Mage. Maxed out in bow and 4 star proficiency in melee. Heh, heh, heh: enemies jumping past the front lines to seek out soft spell casters are in for a very rude surprise. Character 5 needs to go to at least CLVL 12 before the DC. I know, because my DC F(9)/T spends most of her time in TotLM running away from enemies, while the other DC Fighters do the fighting. I would be nice to just go with 3b and 5; but this leaves you without a Thief for virtually the entire IWD game. Ouch! No trap find/disarm, no scout, no fun! So the plan is to make a disposable character (3a) to get you through the early game. Discard the straight Thief at about level 9/10 and add the newly rolled (3b) DC Fighter[9]/Illusionist. Your Fighter/Illusionist will START over 9 levels behind the rest of the group; but it is amazing how fast she will catch up. She should be ready to DC well before you hit HoW. Discarding the Thief at CLVL 9 leaves your party Thiefless for a short while, until character 5 DCs; but by this time your Bard and Cleric will have matured enough to carry the party through trap mishaps. The 9+ Thief levels worth of expo that the party loses on a character using this technique (about 150K) seems like a lot in the early game, but it is really a pittance: Even on normal difficulty, this is about 3% of your eventual total. (You can get this much per character in a little over an hour of camping in the right spot in TotLM.) The only thing that should keep one from taking an "expendable" character is if they can't justify it from a roleplay perspective. Yes, although the plan above is quite viable for a power gamer doing the entire game and expansions; it could be a bit tough for some to stomach from a roleplay perspective. For the those who desire, there is another option: A "softer" way of doing this is to create the original 6-person party (including 3b). Party without the Thief (3a), until you need her, then return to Kuldahar and exchange characters for as long as the Thief is needed. This wastes less expo on the Thief (whom you will eventually not need) and is more palatable from a roleplay perspective (hiring "expert" help when you need it, while a core party member recuperates in town). All characters (with possible exception of DC F/D) get natural STR = DEX = CON = 18, and other prime reqs maxed for characters to which they will DC. This means that all DC characters (except Druid) are rolled in the mid-80's. The Fighter/Druid will be the toughest, needing a total roll of at least 90. Even then, STR might have to be sacrificed to max DEX (most important) and CON. Study the requirements closely, so as to not be rudely surprised at the DC, or disappointed in your build later on. If I were sacrifice enjoyment in the early to mid game in order to have the strongest end-game party practical (on normal dificulty, and no Heart of Fury), I would let ALL the DC characters go to CLVL 13 before DC. Might have to camp a bit to make it work. If I gave in just slightly to roleplaying considerations, an alternate party make-up would have me taking character 4 to Cleric[13] before the DC, and trading in Characters 1.) and 3b.) as follows: 1.) Paladin (**LongSword, **LongBow) 3b.) MC Gnome Cleric/Illusionist This gives the party variety but is a weaker build in my eyes. Hope you found this interesting and not too long of a read. </font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen> What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! </font> [ 09-17-2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ] |
<font color = mediumspringgreen>I got a wild hair: After a little thought and a few adjustments and surprises, created a party CURRENTLY planned to be:
1.) DC Fighter[13]/Neutral_Cleric (***** Mace, *** Sling) 2.) DC Fighter[13]/Druid (***** Scimitar, *** Sling) 3.) DC Fighter[12]/Illusionist (***** Axe, ***LongBow) 4.) DC Good_Cleric[12]/Ranger (** Flail, ** Sling) 5.) DC Fighter[13]/Thief (***** LongSword, *** LongBow) 6.) H-Elf Bard (* Mace, * Crossbow) I haven't created the stand-in Thief, yet; though I expect to need him. One of the Fighters bashed in the Scrimshander's (sp?) door. The surpises included: -- The Bard has STR=17, despite the fact that I rolled her in the high 80's. -- I was looking for a 91 for my F/D. After about 500 rolls, with max roll = 88; I got a roll of 98!! -- Having the Bard sing that "beginner's combat bonus" song to 4 Fighters and a Cleric is nice! Other than one stray hit in Grisella's basement (that I could have easily avoided), the party has cleared the entire Prologue, on Normal difficulty, with NO hitpoints lost! No magic used so far, just muscle and marksmanship. (EDIT: Missed a hit. The party actually took a total of 9 HP damage spread over 2 hits.) -- Ranged weapons seem to be MORE effective at this stage of the game than the close quarters weapons. When I say no magic was used, I mean NO ONE (friend or foe) cast a spell: The team dropped every enemy spellcaster before they could get their first spell off. In one encounter, three of my ranged attackers took out 3 enemy ranged attackers, before the other 2 heavies in my team even made a dent in the melee opponent. Finally, in the climactic Prologue battle, the star meanie, that had caused my earlier teams big-time headaches, couldn't even close to melee before going down. I'll keep an eye on this to see if it is a fluke; and, if not, gauge when the tides turn. </font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen> What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! </font> [ 09-28-2005, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ] |
You've got a whole lot more patience (and experience at this game, evidently) than I, Noble Nick.
I'm going like this now: Human Paladin (leader) Gnome Fighter/Illusionist Elf Fighter/Thief Human Fighter3 -> Cleric Human Fighter3 -> Druid Half-Elf Bard |
I am having a heck of a good time with this party:
pally maces and axes for range to start, will add longswords bard longbows, halberd. doesn't really matter here gnome fighter longbows and greatswords :evil: gnome illusionist/thief bows dwarf fighter/cleric hammer/sling human fighter/dual druid <-- i dualclassed too early, at level 3. if i could go back, i would dual at level 7 or 13. uses a sling and scimitar [ 09-26-2005, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Klorox ] |
noblenick: with that many dual classes, maybe you should play the prologue on insane mode. the extra xp will help!
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<font color = mediumspringgreen>Klorox,
On the Pally: do you really only get 5 throws for the "Throwing axes" I see in the shops? Where do you get the returning thrown axe? On the DC F/D: Yes, I DCed at 9, to max HP, and was elated until I hit HoW, then my elation got downgraded to mere contentment. In TotLM the happiness meter fell even lower: This guy just can't cut it on the front line. (partially attributable to his DEX = 14. Duh, I should have maxed DEX.) I wish I had DCed at 13 for the 4 extra THAC0, and the extra 0.5 ApR he gets. ----> Depending on PP stacking, chosen weapon, shapeshifting, etc., your character DCed at CLVL 13 would end up with 5 to 7 extra THAC0, and up to TWO (2) ApR bonus, over a character DCed to Druid at CLVL 3. Not to mention all the HP. Prologue on HoF Insane: At first I thought of this as cheesy, since I intend to do the rest of the game on Normal. But then I thought, "Since when has cheesy stopped me?" No, I am a cheese-monger if there ever was one. Boy, there is a lot of XP wrapped up in Grisella's basement and in those goblins across the bridge. Especially when my party, with the Bard singing the combat bonus song to the "front line" of 4 Fighters and 1 Priest, were consistently dropping each goblin in the first volley of the first round, with typically 2 to 3 arrows/bullets still in the air, flying towards a then-dead target. In fact, no goblin ever closed to melee until I purposely aggroed a bunch of them in the pass, just to see how fast the party could drop them. (The answer --> Very, very fast. Other then a single arrow hit, I don't think I ever lost HP to a goblin.) Why didn't I think of making it harder and taking some credit for it? Oh, well; thanks for the advice. I'm almost finished with the Vale now. Next time... </font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen> What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! </font> [ 09-28-2005, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ] |
*whispers* Go ahead, play the whole thing on insane...
Actually, you will like it for the huge amounts of XP. If you really wanted to be cheesy, you could up the difficulty before receiving every quest reward and at certain areas - camping on DE lvl 3 comes to mind. |
NobleNick: You get a +2 returning axe right before fighting that little girl who turns into some nasty lookin' thing in Chapter 2 while persuing the Hearthstone (or something like that).
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Until then there are lots of throwing axes for sale, although they are very expensive. They only make sense as a way to get in one or two missile attacks while the enemies charge and you switch to a normal axe.
The throwing axe is in the room behind the secret door, where KF says it is. |
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</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen> What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! </font> |
It's not a random item. But it isn't as good as a bow, or a sling with GM.
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I would definitely consider myself a newbie but this is the party I plan on using for my first time through:
Paladin Ranger/Cleric Fighter(13)->Druid Fighter/Thief Bard Fighter(13)->Specialist Mage. I did have some inspiration from this board, the information has been great. If I haven't decided what the specialist mage should be by the time the fighter reaches lvl 13, no doubt I'll be asking you guys for help. |
<font color = mediumspringgreen>shadeoracle,
[img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] WELCOME to the IWD forum! [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] Nice solid party, assuming you have HoW installed. Do you have HoW? If so, Illusionist should be your specialty. If not, you might want to re-think the Bard and the DC(13) characters (or, better yet, get HoW). </font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen> What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! </font> [ 10-21-2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ] |
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</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen> What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! </font> |
Thanks for the welcome. I do have HoW and TotLM so there's no problem with that regard.
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I once tried an all Elven, human and half elven party of rangers. All with ** in Bow and Crossbow... It was beautiful. Nothing could touch them. Even Hrothgar was downed by these level one party members
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The nice thing about returning throwing axes in IWD1 is that unlike in IWD2 where you can switch between complete sets of weapon and shield, or 2H weapon combinations, in IWD1, if you've got a 2H weapon equipped, you cannot equip a shield.
Of course, this isn't a problem if you're switching between a bow and a greatsword, but if your character prefers a shord and shield, it's a bit of a pain. Thus, using a 1-handed throwing axe is a great alternative. Also, a returning throwing axe is great for that stereotypical axe-wielding dwarven fighter in any party. A very efficient use of those proficiency points. And, IIRC, throwing axes in IWD1 have a rather long range, similar to most bows or crossbows, unlike in IWD2 where nearly all throwing axes have a rather meager range. If you have a melee tank that you want to carry a shield to crank up that AC, then a throwing axe is a wonderful compliment to that shield. |
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I have verified that your memory is correct on the range of the returning axe: It appears to be exactly the same as the best bows available in IWD. </font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen> What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!! </font> |
I'm building a new computer; so, while I wait for some parts to finally hit the stores, I'm rolling a new party this weekend:
Human Paladin Best Defense Good Offense [only class allowed to use The Sword] Some Cleric support spells Gnome Fighter Great Defense [only of two races to use The Helm] Great Offense [Axe -- for a +4 and a throwing axe] Good natural resistances for a front liner Human Fighter (15) / Cleric (good) ...Going to 15 for a bit of extra THAC0 and HP... Your basic Super-Cleric Elf Druid 1. Druids are powerful in their own right -- they don't really need to dual- class -- especially if you're grooming a dual-class Cleric! I'd rather get them powered up early with the spells. Those summonses are vital in HoF mode...for those who dare. 2. Elf's 19 Dex [sling] and 90% charm resistances. Half-Elf Bard Pick Pocket, Lore, Back-up Mage, but mostly for that final song of theirs. Human Thief (17) / Mage ...I like to have one strong Thief, so I'm going to level 17 to get the -4 Cripple Strike [5d6 Sneak Attack too] and some extra THAC0 and HP for the otherwise weak Mage... It will take some time to see this character shine, but the other 5 will do the job until this one can kick-in. She will be dangerous when she does! I figured that the longer-waiting dual-classers might be a bit painful, but they will give me two Uber-characters for the later areas of the game. Besides, this will make me feel a bit less cheesy in taking advantage the dual-class : ) |
Well, I have no qualms about giving a [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] to the pally, fighter, and bard.
I assume that you are planning to go to HoF? That's the only scenario where a dc F/C 15/X and dc T/M 17/X conceivably makes sense to me. However, a single-classed druid will max out partway through HoF. I have two additional comments to make. 1) Going from single classed to multiclassed generally means a level drop of 1. That is, you can expect a lvl 6 druid to have enough XP to be a lvl 5/5 multiclass. Further, a druid's spells are set up to favour the F/D multiclass - a Flame Blade, Moonblade, or Star Metal Cudgel is a lot more effective if you have more attacks per round than the standard 1, never mind the better Thaco of the multiclass. The additional attacks are also excellent when using a sling. With your party setup (late dc of the F/C), you will have to use a significant number of the druid's spells for healing until your bard hits lvl 11, so the druid won't be as effective of an offensive caster as you might wish. 2. Since your T/M is going to take so much time to be effective anyway, why not take a mc F/M/T? Compared to the dc T/M, it gives better HP, better Thaco, use of warrior's weapons (longbows!) and attacks/round, exceptional strength, thief skills throughout the game, etc. It would also give you a second mage earlier in the game, and you could write all those spells in your book instead of lugging them around waiting for your T/M to dual. |
While I agree that the F/M/T is probably better than the T[17]-M, I have to question whether it gets more hit points. By my math the T-M gets 3-8 per level, while the F/M/T gets 3-9, and rounding down will hurt the multi-class enough that the T-M will generally have more hit points. And this assumes that the F/M/T takes 18 CON - giving the T-M 2 extra points to spend on something else. Finally the dual class will level more quickly, and so will have many more hit points at any given time.
Does the elven charm resistance actually work? |
Change of plan plus mention of weapon choice to answer original post [Aerich: Yes; HoF mode, so...modified with your advice and added some of my own]
After a long weekend of rolling: Paladin 18/95 18 18 10 15 18 "Cherry" [F] Bow** L. Sword** next: Mace** (Skeletons) then Missile** (shield) Gnome Fighter 18/00 18 18 11 10 10 "Fudwocket" [M] Crossbow** Axe** next: Mace** [Skeletons - Neutral for a certain +3 Mace -- I'll build Axe***** after Mace** for throwing Axe (shield) then finish Mace*****] Half-Elf Fighter/Druid 18/87 18 18 8 18 15 "Khepri" [M] Missile** L. Sword next: Club** (crushing) then Dagger** (speed) Human Fighter (15)/Mage 18/20 18 18 18 10 10 "Skrhugoth" '[M] [Not sure to specialize yet -- probably should] Note on STR: this guy can wear a nice 18/51 gauntlet later & I was tired of rolling -- he will mostly shoot arrows and cast spells anyhow. Bow** Dagger** Build Bow*** 1st then Dagger***** (for a certain +4 dagger -- besides I wanted it to go along with the cool pic with the guy with the dagger) Human Thief (17)/Cleric 18 18 17 10 18 10 "Guinevere" [F] Bow* Dagger* next: Club* (crushing) Ultimately this gal will be using the club* exclusively down the DC path [you can get a +5 club & 18/00 gauntlet in HoW -- yummy!] Half-Elf Bard 14 18 17 18 11 16 "Wheeze" [F] Crossbow* Short Sword* [don't really care, but I think I'll go missile to get the bard equipped with a buckler shield instead -- this gal is all about singing and spells] Bard note: 14 STR should be enough (again: tired of rolling) and 16 CHA to give a 21 CHA and (later) a 22 CHA for purchases. Finally: your bard could use a 13 WIS later, so...3 random potions you'll need to get it -- dropping your CON by one. That is why I have a 17 for my CON...for all who wonder. Okay; I'll be hurting in cleric department for a while, but I need the thief in the beginning and she will shine later for me. I can start cleric sooner with a 17th level thief then a 15th level fighter DC'ing! I simply want to take my DC higher than the usual people do on this board and keep the character from getting too boring along the way. What the heck. Final note: I think Elven Charm was broke in BG, but should work in IWD? |
Sitting here at lunch, looking at the numbers...
I may give the Bard more time rolling! I gave my Thief/Cleric 17 CON in case I wanted to bump the WIS to 20 (losing that one CON point without consequences) with the three (3) potion plan. Getting a priest to 20 WIS gives 1st x 1 / 2nd x 1 / 4th x 2 [this last one is the true boon for 20 WIS considering the importance of 4th level cleric spells.] I'll try to get the Bard: 14 18 16 18 13 16 [95] I figured that, if I had the patience to get my Paladin a roll of 97, then the Bard can tough it out for a 95. |
a 95 is pretty good for a bard, but with all of the bards restrictions, I think you could go higher ;)
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You want a 15 strength with a bard so you can use longbows.
I always shoot for 15/18/16/18/10/15 |
Wow, lots of posts since friday.
@ ister - I didn't actually do the math, so you may well be right. Note that a F/M/T should take 17 Con instead of 18 because the extra point is a waste with the rounding down, so the T/M has a net gain of 1 stat point to go elsewhere. Anyway, the HP argument is probably irrelevant - any combination of thief and mage won't have many HP, and arguing about it is like two dwarves arguing about how tall they are. ;) The advantage to a F/M/T is better Thaco and more attacks/round - best used from a distance, of course. I believe the elven charm resistance does work, but few NPCs cast charm spells. It's a minor perk, at best. @ Roboghost Paladin - good. As a matter of preference, I like to take flail instead of mace for the hammer flail (+2, 15% chance to stun) and later the shocking flail (+4, additional electrical damage, 20% chance to stun), but mace is a solid choice. Fighter - awesome. I got a natural 18/00 roll once (on a gnome fighter also), and chopped the enemy into little bits. Did about 50% of the party's kills. You could choose to take 1 PP in crossbow to start, allowing you to get to 5 PP in axe sooner. I'm fairly sure that you don't get extra attacks for specialization in crossbow, so there's really no need to specialize early unless you are doing HoF from the start and need all the early ranged advantages you can scrounge. Fighter/Druid - excellent. No beefs. If you don't manage to get Dazer (magical club from the Vale) or any of the other random clubs, there's a 4th level druid spell that gives you a great club; extra damage to unnatural creatures (undead, constructs, extra-planar), which is what you want. There's apparently a decent number of random clubs in this game, but I rarely seem to get them. Fighter/Mage - good. Long wait, but worth it. IMO the best combo for a dual class. Thief/Cleric - a good combo for "necessary" abilities. On weapons, see my general comments below. Bard - fine. A 15 in Str allows use of composite longbows, but who cares? ;) My latest bard is lvl 13 and has shot a total of one arrow. :D Song selection has been Tymora's Melody and WCotS. General Notes on Weapons I see lots of maces and clubs, but no other blunt weapons. There are tons of great hammers and some decent flails, so you could spread the proficiencies around your party better unless you are anticipating selling even the best flails and hammers for extra cash. In terms of overall weapon usage, I'd recommend giving the Gauntlets of Ogre Power (and other Str increasing items such as the 19 Str Girdle of Stromnos in Lower Dorns) and the +5 club to characters other than the T/C. Note: the G of S and the Gauntlets of Elven Might can only be used by warrior classes anyway, although I believe the Gauntlets of Ogre Power can be used by clerics (but not thieves, so I don't know exactly how that will work with a dc character - should be ok). The T/C is a support character, not a melee artist - you only get one attack per round, no matter your level. Those goodies can be better used by the F/D. Take a hammer or mace instead, as you can get ones that add clerical spells. You can use the extra spells for attacking spells if you want your cleric to be a little more offensive. Also note that you will lose the capability to use dagger; once you dual to cleric you can never regain the use of a non-blunt weapon. Your pure fighter could also use a hammer to good effect. Although hammers do slightly less damage than other blunt weapons, IMO they make up for it because most good hammers have a weapon speed of 1. With a natural 18/00 Str and the quickest weapon available, you can finish a lot of monsters. The hammer is better for offence, the Giving Star mace is better for defence if you don't factor in the reduced number of hits you will take by killing your enemies a fraction sooner. [ 11-15-2005, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Aerich ] |
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True, but read on...
As I understood Roboghost's post, he was intending the PP progression to be **crossbow and **axe to start, followed by **mace, then adding the final 3 stars to axe, then 3 more to mace. This strategy gives you 5 PP in axe at lvl 15, along with early specialization in crossbow (ranged fire) and mace (for skeletons). I suggested **axe, *crossbow, *mace to start, followed by another * in mace at lvl 3, then the next 3 stars in axe, getting to 5 PP at lvl 12. My reasoning for this progression is as follows, with #3-5 being the most important: 1) ** in crossbow doesn't add much over just * - additional chance to hit isn't really necessary if he is not doing HoF with a rookie party, as the +2 for 18 Dex and the Thaco of a single-classed warrior will provide enough bonus. 2) There aren't many good crossbows in the game, and certainly not early in the game (I define a "good" crossbow as one capable of more than one shot/round). 3) A pure fighter will be either the #1 or #2 melee option and so won't spend much time shooting a crossbow anyway. 4) With 18/00 Str, a pure fighter will do loads more damage in melee compared to ranged fire with a crossbow (no Str bonus to attack or damage). 5) An axe specialist is only going to use a crossbow a) before getting the returning axe from DE lvl 4 or b) after getting a multiple att/round crossbow and some magical bolts, which will be in the mid-to-lategame stages of IWD before the expansions. [ 11-15-2005, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Aerich ] |
My Bard normally has the following statistics, usually a female Human,
STR: 15, Not just for Composite Longbows, but to help carry stuff as well. DEX: 18 CON: 16 INT: 18 WIS: 10 CHA: 18 |
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Preface: I'm a random item nut...after a big fight...I want what I want {pounds feet on ground}.
Okay... Bard roll update [97 -- same as Paladin!]: 14 18 16 18 13 18 STR 14 & 15: = 120 lbs carry capacity I'd rather have my Bard equip a Buckler -- so no bow for me. Sling will have to do [as a last resort].) BIG NOTE: you only need STR 12 to use a long bow, but STR 15 for a composite bow!! WIS 13: for a certain instrument down road. CHA 18: I like one character to pump up the CHA if possible: 18 + 5 (spell) = 23 and then +1 (laurel) for a 24 for going shopping. I think you can get it to 25 a ways down the road (weapon?). Buying up good ammo is the best way to take advantage of high charisma...fur shur. Paladin mace instead of flail [at first]: You can buy a fairly cheap +3 mace at start of game to help pound skeletons. I'll build the flail** at level 9 & 12. But you can get a +4 random mace before HoW that is very nice for a Paladin -- hint: it "defends". Note that the Shocking Flail +4 vanishes with HoW installed. Finally, another throwing axe will come along, so build axe** at levels 15 & 18. Fighter mace v. hammer (1) & crossbow notes (2): 1. First comes the +3 mace then later comes another VERY powerful +3 mace in HoW. A fighter can make good use of this -- mine won't be ***** until level 24, but that keeps things interesting ["fairish"] throughout game. Maces are slower, but they hurt! Spell disruption can come from the back rows. 2. Crossbow**: specialized give +1 Hit & +2 Damage & bolts are 1d8 v. arrows 1d6. Admittedly the ROF sucks with crossbows until later when you get a chance at some crossbows that add +2 or +3 to ROF. I prefer the light crossbow for speed. My fighter will go crossbow*** at level 27 and will be a nice complement to the throwing axe. Save up a pack of deadly bolts and a +3 crossbow and use on the toughest nasties {keeping them busy with summons at the same time} then go to "guns" when the worst are laid to rest & finish up the job. Thief/Cleric v. Fighter/Druid club issue: Yea; it would be logical to let the fighter/druid horde the best club since it is their only shielded thumping weapon, but the club is also the only crush weapon that can take advantage of the thief attacks. Kind of a quandary here! There are two other powerful clubs besides the +5, but they come late in the castle and HoW. I'll probably just let the cleric keep the +5 and the F/D will have to fend for himself -- although...the F/D can use that +5 spear, but will have to go without a shield to use it. Also on the Thief/Cleric: Pick any thief weapon -- it won't matter, because you'll be able to get your cleric weapons up and running in no time anyway. By the time my Thief/Cleric hits 17/18...I'll have most except maybe one (probably the staff -- I wish the game came with a couple of +4 or +5 staves [come to think of it].) Spoiler stuff down yonder... . . . . . Some final words: on strength (in order of achieving): Fighter - STR 19 (random ring) Paladin - STR 19 (belt) Fighter/Mage - STR 18/51 (gauntlet) Thief/Cleric - STR 18/00 (gauntlet) - cleric armor overrides thief armor as far as what you can wear, but thief abilities may be disabled with cleric armor Fighter/Druid - STR 18/00 (gauntlet) Bard...will stay a weenie (as they should.) Use this gal to keep Paladin and F/D strength up with a spell until each can achieve their strength goals. A good example of my planning ahead on my ranged weapons: Paladin will end w/ throwing axe** w/ 19 STR and bow** Fighter will end w/ throwing axe***** w/ 19 STR and crossbow*** F/D will end w/ missile** w/ 18/00 STR w/ +4/+4 sling T/C will end w/ missile* w/ 18/00 STR w/ +3/+5 sling F/M will end w/ throwing dagger***** w/ 18/51 STR and bow*** Bard will end w/ missile* & crossbow* & bow* or...run the other way [boots of speed, anyone?] All can do range with a shield and 4 of the 6 can remove the shield and load up with evil ammo and cause even more terrible damage at range to the creeps hunting you down [2 bow and 2 crossbow]! The throwing dagger will come late, but I'll be ready for my prize when I get it (with one big "whoopee"). Ultimately: It is kind of cool to have a party that has some weaknesses. It gives you a chance to actually plan some strategy instead of solving all problems by pressing the "button". My party here will eventually scare most gods into a corner, but I will have to think my way though the game a bit until then ; ) [ 11-15-2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Roboghost ] |
Just to clear some things up, the Gauntlets of Elven Might can only be used by Multi Classed fighters, if I recall correctly.
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Gauntlets of Elven Might:
A DC F/M can wear them, but only after the "Fighter" kicks back in in a dual-class situation. |
On the mace vs. flail debate in the early game, I've never bought a magical weapon at Conlan's for use in the Vale. A non-magical flail is sufficient to clear the Vale, because you also find a +1 sword to use against weapon-immune undead.
My first magical purchase is spells, and my first magical item purchase (with a bard in the party, of course) is the Horn of Valhalla. Second is often the Helm of the Defender. Third is the blur belt. Fourth is Pemby's Wand of Many Missiles. If I have tons of money before I finish DE, I also like to grab the Wand of Freezing Death. I prefer to buy my early items from Orrick, because his inventory changes and you lose the opportunity to buy his stuff every time you go to a new chapter. [ 11-16-2005, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ] |
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