Does anyone else think the encumberance limits are a little on the high side? Is it realistic that even the strongest humans can walk around indefinitely "unencumbered" and fight without any penalty while carrying over 200lbs of gear?

What's the most amount of weight a character should be able to carry "unencumbered"? I would think anyone carrying more than 1/3 their bodyweight would feel encumbered after a couple of hours, and carrying anything more than 30lbs or so would interfere with fighting or spellcasting.

If you don't believe me, strap on a backpack with 30lbs of gear, walk on hilly terrain for 8 hours, then ask people to poke at you with a broomstick while you try to avoid being hit. Let me know if your were able to retain your dexterity bonus to your AC ;)

[ 11-01-2004, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

50 lb backpacks with Rifle, 20 mile marches. If you don't dodge being poked by a bullet the walk home is much shorter.

youre right...
Fireballs I can cast, monsters I can summon, invisible I can become... but I certainly cannot walk with 30lbs for 8 hours :( in spite of trying lots of times. So unrealistic. Or my strength is not enough.

I know it might sound silly, but even though magic and the supernatural are practically everywhere in the Forgotten Realms, it is still a "logical" world structured according to a set of systematically interrelated rules.

For example, magic just isn't "magic". There is a finite list of spells that can be analyzed and categorized according to an established typology. Each spell has a precise casting time, requires specifc components, belongs to a school of magic, etc. It's not as if a mage character can simply re-direct the energy in the universe to create unique spells of her own.

Further, the laws of physics are expected to apply except where modified by some logical means. Even if those means cannot exist in our empirical reality we accept that they exist in the Forgotten Realms. For example, a human fighter can turn invisible if he drinks a potion of invisibility, or has a ring of invisibilty, etc. There has to be some explanation since normal people can't become invisible.

The game makes an conscious decision to take encumberance into effect. It recognizes that there is a reasonable limit to how much can be carried without a character becoming encumbered. My observation is that these limits are set a bit too high to be realistic. For example, the strongest humans (men or women) can naturally have a STR=18/00, which would allow them to indefinitely carry, unencumbered, 400lbs! It's not reasonable to think a natural person could walk for days and fight monsters while carrying such weight. I would think that even a giant of a man, who might weigh over 300lbs, wouldn't be able to carry more than 100 lbs and still feel "unencumbered" by it.

This just takes me to another issue: Gold. There's no encumberance for gold whatsoever. You can carry infinite gold pieces and not feel a change in carried weight. If 20 small coins weigh about a pound, 100,000 gold would weigh 5,000 lbs! That's a lot to carry.

Also, notice that potions weigh a pound each, but don't weigh anything when you put them in potion cases. A case of 20 potions weighs only what the case weighs.

[ 11-01-2004, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

Ah well, it's just for game convenience. How would it be if you had a choice between carrying those 5000 GP or carrying that magical plate mail? Not a good decision, is it? How would it be if you couldn't carry anything except your armor, period?

Regarding the exceptional strength stuff... consider that less than 1/10th of 1% of people will have 18/** Strength. I agree that the encumbrance level is high (400 lbs is a LOT), but 18/00 Str is supposed to be the absolute pinnacle of human strength - that is, all potential has been realized.

I look back to the AD&D 2nd Edition and the relative values they assign to the various scores. The description under Int is particularly enlightening:

"A very intelligent person (Int 11 or 12) picks up new ideas quickly and learns easily. A highly intelligent character (Int 13 or 14) is one who can solve most problems without even trying hard. One with exceptional intelligence (Int 15 or 16) is noticeably above the norm. A genius character is brilliant (Int 17 or 18). A character beyond genius is potentially more clever and more brilliant than can possibly be imagined."

So if we apply that to Str, a very strong person will have Str 11-12, and an exceptionally strong person will have Str 15-16. Part of the problem is that the exceptional scores are so easy to get in IWD (especially since most of us reroll at least a couple times) that we take them for granted. If we wanted to transpose this to real life, we might say that only a small handful of people to ever walk this earth have had 18/00 Str.

One more thing to point out, IWD has modified the encumbrance levels from AD&D as well - the weight allowances have gone up by a significant amount. A Str of 16 (exceptional, remember) has a weight allowance of 70 lbs and a maximum press (essentially maximum overhead lift) of 195 lbs. Looks reasonable, but compare it to the game amounts for the same Str level.

Hey I understand that completely... was only joking...

Btw, on a side notice, if you look at real medieval full plate armor and weapons and shields they are so heavy that precious few people can lift them and almost nobody can carry them and wield them properly (even including soldiers, marines etc).. so does it mean people then were that much stronger than us?

Back to IWD, what I really find illogical is that volume is not taken into consideration. A character can carry 16 suits of armor (even if he is encumbered and cannot move with them he can still carry them) while if he carries 16 rings hes out of space.

Although I'm definitely a newbie, I've have reviewed several threads and am very impressed with the discourse provided by jmsteven, Aerich, NobleNick, Calagari and others. Thank you for your thought provoking insights and gaming perspectives. After following your conversations, I now feel confident enough to enter my own opinions.

With regard to encumberance, Aerich is absolutely correct that there is a considerable distortion between AD&D strength limits and those implemented in the game. It appears that the game has adopted the "maximum press" as encumberance values. It's not unreasonable to imagine that a heavily-muscled mercenary could lift 200lbs overhead, or even that hero with herculean strength could lift 400lbs overhead. However, the thought of anyone engaging in battle while carrying such weight is not reasonable.

Also, although there isn't much loose gold in the game to begin with, the game could be more interesting if it forced the trade-offs mentioned by Aerich. Most of the party's gold comes from selling gems and magical items. In PnP D&D, you can barter with merchants (I'll trade my magic sword for your magic armor), and there are money changers that trade gems for gold at varying rates of exchange. Instead of having 100,000 gold, the party would carry a small sack of diamonds, emeralds, and rogue-stones, or some other small item of incredible value. There's no reason why this couldn't have been implemented in the game. Just laziness on the part of the designers.

One strength-related point that wasn't mentioned was how "politically-correct" IWD becomes in suggesting that men and women would have equal strength potential. There is a considerable gap between the strongest men and the strongest women. On the other hand, women have the potential to be more agile than men. That's why male gymnasts primarily compete in strength-driven events, like rings, and female gymnasts compete in dexterity-driven events, like balance beam. It think these considerations could be included in the game, giving females the potential for higher dexterity, and males the potential for higher strength. This is not to say females can't make great warriors; they would just have to rely more on speed and skill than brute strength. From the look of the female portraits, it doesn't seem as if any of them could overhead press 200 lbs.

[ 11-02-2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Otto ]

Weight limits:
Well...this is a fantasy and your characters are the heroes!
If the average Kuldahar resident could put an end the evil, then they wouldn't need YOU.

We actually have Potions of Strength here in real life: "Potion of Steroids." Thus, it is feasible to realize that though drugs or genetic alterations, this could actually be a real possibility some day. We could even model our genetics to make us LOOK like one of these character we're playing...I'll be standing in line to change into an Elf (a better chance to date one--Mmm' mmm'.)

Gold:
It is magically teleported to and from you from the "Bank of Fantasy" when you need it : )-

<font color = lightgreen> [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] It's a game, not simulated reality. If I want to limit my recreational activity to only what is absolute real, based on observable laws of physics and the limitations of mortal tissue, then I will go jogging or take another martial art class, not play a computer game.

In summary, don't over-analyze it, just enjoy it. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>

Maybe you get an invisible "Bill the Pony" with each party to account for the extra weight [img]smile.gif[/img]

In basic D&D the issue of encumberance was mitigated by the 1st level Elf/Magic-user spell, "floating disk" (back then all elves were fighter/mages):

Floating Disk
Level: 1
Range: 6'
Duration: 6 turns

This spell creates an invisible platform about the size of a small round shield which can carry up to 5000 coins (500 lbs) of weight. It cannot be created in a place occupied by another object. The floating disc will be created at the height of the caster's waist and remain at that height, following the caster wherever he or she goes. If the caster goes further than 6 feet from the disc, it will automatically follow, with a movement rate equal to the caster's. When the spell duration ends, the floating disc will disappear, suddenly dropping anything that was on it.

I wonder if the designers could have implemented this spell in the game somehow...

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Otto,

Has anyone officially welcomed you to the IWD forum? If not, please accept mine:

[img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . WELCOME to the Icewind Dale forum!! . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

jmsteven, I agree, they do seem a bit unrealistic; though it doesn't bother me.

As a young pup, I used to hike the Cascade mountains with a 70 pound pack plus clothing = 85 pounds total. We'd drop packs and wade the lakes to fish for an hour, then pick up packs and schlog onward (and usually upward, it seemed, and often in that good old Washington rain). I like to imagine that the IWD characters with STR=CON=18 could have buried me in such hikes, and that their scout would give them enough time to ditch encumbrances before a fight; so for the fantasy world I have created it's not TOO far-fetched. </font>

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

Hello, and thank you for the welcome. I would think there would be a large gap between absolute weight capacity and unencumberance limits. According to the 2nd ed. Player's Handbook, "encumberance" is defined as the amount that can be carried without slowing down the character's movement rate.

I'm a backpacker, myself, and I even took a semester off from college so I could spend 5 months hiking the Appelachean Trail (2,160 miles from Georgia to Maine). My best guess would be that my movement rate slowed when I carried more than 50lbs. At times I carried up to about 75 lbs, but I felt "encumbered" by that much weight. This was most evident when I looked at my feet more than at what was around me.

The encumberance and maximum press limits are admittedly a little "larger-than-life" in AD&D. Even in the AD&D Player' Handbook, it states:

"In 1987, the world record for lifting a weight overhead in a single move was 465 pounds. A heroic fighter with Strength 18/00 can lift up to 480 pounds the same way and he can hold it overhead for a longer time!"

The fact that the strongest fighter in AD&D can be a little stronger than an actual person is not such a stretch for the imagination. However, the encumberance limits in IWD are exaggerated even beyond the limits in the Player's Handbook. For example, the "larger-than-life" encumberance limit in the PH for STR=18/01 is 135 lbs, but in IWD it's 220 lbs! That's a big difference. I would have liked the 2nd AD&D rules more faithfully implemented.

[ 11-05-2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Otto ]

Kudos on the title change Nick

And Oh yes Welcome to the forum Otto I hope you find a home here.

After considering the submissions by Calagari and Otto, I renounce my low-end weight limit of 30lbs. Mythological literature is actually filled with accounts of people with supernatural strength, and I see no reason why such people wouldn't exist in Forgotten Realms. The earliest example of this is in the Epic of Gilgamesh. When Gilgamesh and Enkidu journey to the Cedar Forest to fight the giant, Humbaba, each carries a greatsword weighing 120 lbs, and a greataxe weighing 180 lbs. In later literature, such as the Iliad, the anti-hero, Achilles, is described as having the strength of three men, and carries weapons no ordinary man could wield. Odysseus also has supernatural strength and could string a bow that no other man could. Similar examples are also found in Beowulf, the Story of Diedre, the Song of Roland, the Tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and other mythologies.

The difference is that Gilgamesh, Enkidu, Achilles, and Odysseus had divine lineage, which accounted for their supernatural strength. However, Beowulf was purely mortal and "exceptionally" strong, so I guess I agree with your point.

I think, rules must be simply enough to feel like it is the game. If they are too complicated, it may be discouraging for newbies in that game.
Look even to armor class. One attribute simulate all defense - dexterity, dodging, magic shielding and physical armor barrier (armors).

The game doesn't check, whether you hit him or not, and if yes, then armor is reducing damage, ...but simple, if you have defended against attack or not. It is simple, not realistic, like all rules in game should be.

Same for encumberance. If you want be realistic, so even switch to other weapon or even look into your backpack should cost some time (e.g. 1 round). But then, the game will be not so playable like IWD, isn't it?

I am agreeing with Aerich. IWD allows to score maximum attributes very easy. If IWD would be on-line game, you wouldn't get 18 of some attribute so easily. Only 1 of 10 players for example would have so luck, he score 18.

You raise some interesting points. I agree that the Armor Class system is not as sophisticated as it should be. Heavy plate armor makes the warrior easier to hit but harder to damage. A better system would be to apply "damage resistance" instead of (or in addition to) an AC bonus when wearing various types of armor, and not just damage resistance for rare magical armor/shields.

The 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons rules, as implemented in IWD2, are a little better at distinguishing among different types of AC bonuses, and limiting the amount of dexterity bonus that can be applied when wearing different types of armor. However, there is no complete distinction between getting hit and getting damage.

I disagree, however, that the rules in the game should be simple, and not too realistic. Playing D&D via computer has the potential for very complex modeling of a fantastic world, and this is precisely what separates the IWD and BG series from arcade-type games, like Gauntlet. For D&D fans, the CRP games become more enjoyable as the complexity of the virtual world more closely mirrors the pen & paper experience.