Hello everyone,

I have installed IWD with HoW/TotL, played with insane difficulty till near the end of Chapter 2, then I searched on the web and found this fabulous forum full of outstanding discussions, and I have decided to start all over with a newly created party.

Align__ | Race_ | Class_____ | Str__ | Dex| Con| Int| Wis| Cha| Weapon
-------+-------+------------+-------+---+----+---+----+---+------------------
LGood | Human | Paladin____ | 18/83 | 18 | 18 | 3_ | 17 | 18 | Bow++ LSword++
LGood | Dwarf_ | Fighter____ | 18/92 | 17 | 19 | 6_ | 18 | 2_ | Bow++ Axe++
TrueN | Human | Fighter____ | 18/92 | 18 | 18 | 4_ | 18 | 18 | Mis++ LSword++
LGood | Human | Fighter____ | 18/94 | 18 | 18 | 3_ | 18 | 3_ | Mis++ Mace++
NGood | Human | Bard______ | 18___ | 18 | 16 | 13 | 10 | 15 | Bow+ LSword+
NGood | H-Elf__ | Mage/Thief | 18___ | 18 | 18 | 18 | 16 | 3_ | Bow+ Dagger+

I decide to dual the true neutral fighter to druid and the lawful good fighter to cleric. I hope I can dual both of them at level 9. If I am to play all the way through with insane difficulty, and then go on to HoF mode, would this party work well?

I am anxious to hear from your opinions. Did I distribute all the abilities correctly? Is there anything that should be improved? Any kind of suggestion would be great.

One last question: during character creation, what two spells should I start the mage with? I have chosen identify and magic missiles though.

Welcome to Ironworksforum, MichaelLi!

Sounds good, but you have no one to use Great Swords. Perhaps you should let the Paladin get proficiency in this. Some one with a proficiency in crossbow might also be a good idea, otherwise you'd miss out on all the good crossbows in the game.

What spell to start with? I'd rather go with protective spells such as Shield and Mage Armour instead of Identify, you don't need Identify with a Bard in your party.

[ 08-14-2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

Welcome, MichaelLi!

Party looks good. It will do well on insane/HoF. The hardest part will be at the beginning (because of lack of healing), but once you dual over and/or your bard gains the War Chant, you will be flying high.

One thing I would have done is give your bard a better Int; you don't need 18 Str, as the bard is probably your 5th melee option, at least until you dual over the two fighters. He is at best the third option, though. A 13 Int will greatly restrict the number of spells you can learn. I know that your bard isn't your primary spells option and you may spend the majority of his memorization slots on a few spells, but I would personally have the bard's int at least up to 15-16. It's easier to learn spells, and Int affects a bard's chance to identify, so the higher, the better.

Additionally, you may wish to switch up your alignments a little more. There's a decent amount of evil-only items, and a few that can't be used by lawful characters. It won't cripple you to leave your alignments the way they are, though.

I second Stratos' advice; you should have someone able to use great swords, and at least one who can use crossbows. Don't bother editing/remaking your party to do that, just take those proficiencies as you level up. You may also want more blunt weapon proficiencies, as there are lots of skeletal undead (who take only half damage from slashing, piercing and missile attacks). Some of the magical blunt weapons also have a chance to stun, which can be enormously helpful.

Again, as Stratos said, you don't need to take identify right at the start. Magic will be in short supply for a while, and a bard is good enough to identify the majority of what you pick up. You can also get Identify from spell scrolls.

Re: first level spells - it depends what you envision your mage doing. Stratos suggested Shield and Armor, but I don't think both of those are necessary. Armor is good, because it lasts a long time. If you don't expose your mage/thief to missile fire, you shouldn't need Shield. You can get that spell later. Magic missile is good, but so is Chromatic Orb. An overlooked spell is Grease. It's very helpful in the early game against tough melee fighters like Ogres and Yeti. It slows them down so you can kill them with just missiles - saves your party a lot of damage, especially on Insane.

I would go with Grease and Magic Missile (there's a Chromatic Orb scroll in Easthaven, so you don't need to choose it). You could also choose Armor, Shield, or Protection from Evil (the mage version stacks with a paladin's innate form). I would steer away from Burning Hands and Shocking Grasp. You have four excellent tanks, and these two spells require the vulnerable caster to get very close to the targets. You don't need to.

[ 08-14-2004, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

Thanks to Stratos and Aerich for the in-depth suggestions and the warm welcome! I will let my paladin learn maces, great swords and crossbows when he levels up, and I will let the dwarf fighter learn maces too. From what I've seen in the discussions before, there are not much good maces around, but surely some very good morning stars that can stun enemies, or have extra number of attacks.

Speaking of extra number of attacks, how does the weapon speed works with the extra number of attacks? In the manual, it says:

"Speed factors are numbers between 1 and 10 (indicating 1/10 of a round and 10/10ths of a round respectively for a character that can attack once per round with a weapon). The lower the speed factor, the earlier you'll attack in the round."

Say if I have a Level 9 fighter with grandmaster proficiency with short swords, and he is holding a short sword of speed factor 2. Then the number of attacks would be 3. Does that mean the fighter will attack 3 times per round, at 2/10th, 4/10th, and 6/10th of the round? Am I imagining this correctly? If so, say I have a weapon that has speed factor of 6, it does not seem possible to have more than one attack in a round. Will the second attack start at the 2/10th of the next round? Please help me out of this.

Back to my party... From Aerich's suggestion, I should increase my bard's Int... It seems that for a bard, Int & Dex & Con are important, while Cha are the least important when I already have someone else leading the party. What are left is Str and Wis. Which is less important? Is Wis only for saving throws against mind spells? If so, do anyone knows the formula? It's missing in the manual's ability table. Will a low Wis matters a lot? Could I increase my bard's Int by lowering Wis instead of lowering Str? Thanks in advance.

Leave the bard's wisdom at ten to avoid a lore penalty of -10 lore. Your best bet would be to move 2-3 points of strength to Int. You really don't want your bard in close combat, especially on Insane mode.

I second what Neo said, but leave your strength at 15 at least, this allows you to use composite longbows. This plus a high dexterity plus the two attacks per round a bow gives you makes Bard fairly good archers.

The speed factor of a weapon only affect how early each round you make an attack, if I remember the rules correctly. This is good, of course, as it allows you to harm or possibly kill the enemy before gets to attack you, but quick weapons tend to do less damage than slow ones.

Thanks to Neo and Stratos for the advice! I totally forgot Wis is related to lore. And thanks for the Str 15 requirement reminder. I rerolled my bard and got a Str 15 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 15.

I like your party, it looks pretty solid. My only suggestions would be to take the flail proficiency rather than the mace proficiency and to think about dualing to cleric and druid later than level 9.

Having a couple people with blunt weapons really helped me a lot in a couple of areas. It could be luck with the random drops, but I havn't found much in the way of good maces but I've discovered an abundance of great flails.

I waited untill 13 to dual my fighter and am happier for doing it. I never felt like he was short on cleric spells even though I waited. The extra fighting ability the characters get will help out for the rest of the game. Playing with the expansion and on insane will give you plenty of experience to quickly level up to cleric and druid 14.

Bard: If you import the canned "+" Bard, notice their WIS is 13--there is an instrument that will require WIS of 13 or greater to use it (HoW.)


My current party:

Paladin 18/73 18 18 10 18 18 -- Tank 1
Dwarf Fighter 18/00 17 19 10 12 9 -- Tank 2
Fighter/Druid (multi) 15 18 18 8 18 17
Cleric/Ranger (multi) 13 18 18 10 18 18 -- Charisma
Halfling Fighter/Thief 17 19 18 17 10 12 -- Thief/Bow
Elf Mage 18 19 16 18 11 13

I made my Priests STR challenged--they have to rely on a lesser spell selection at games' start. They will get 18/00 STR later in HoW and TotL. My Pally will get the 19 STR item in IWD. My Pally was a monster roll--too bad my STR didn't go higher--I'll have to keep on Strength spell until I get me that belt.

This gives you just about everything except a Bard. You can always ditch the Mage for a Bard...but I just love those 9th level Summons' a Mage can call on later!

Thanks to Spiff and Roboghost for the advice!

To Spiff: how many experience points will I receive for a party of six at insane difficulty? From what I've read from the previous threads in the forum, it seems there are only about 1.0 - 1.2 million experience points for IWD with a party of six under normal difficulty. I guess that would mean 2.0 - 2.4 million points for insane difficulty. If I dual at level 13 instead of level 9, that would mean to dual at exp 1.25 million for a fighter. It seems that I will be playing without priests for about more than half part of the IWD. Do you remember in about which chapter will I be able to dual at level 13? I only have playing experience to near the end of chapter 2, and that is about level 8 for a fighter.

To Roboghost: I have already started adventuring with the following party:
<table border=2>
<tr><td>Alignment</td><td>Race</td><td>Class</td><td>Str</td><td>Dex</td><td>Con</td><td>Int</td><td>Wis</td><td>Cha</td></tr>
<tr><td>Lawful Good</td><td>Human</td><td>Paladin</td><td>18/88</td><td>18</td><td>18</td><td>4</td><td>18</td><td>18</td></tr>
<tr><td>Lawful Good</td><td>Dwarf</td><td>Fighter</td><td>18/00</td><td>17</td><td>19</td><td>3</td><td>16</td><td>2</td></tr>
<tr><td>True Neutral</td><td>Human</td><td>DC Fighter/Druid</td><td>18/92</td><td>18</td><td>18</td><td>4</td><td>18</td><td>18</td></tr>
<tr><td>Lawful Good</td><td>Human</td><td>DC Fighter/Cleric</td><td>18/97</td><td>18</td><td>18</td><td>9</td><td>18</td><td>3</td></tr>
<tr><td>Neutral Good</td><td>Human</td><td>Bard</td><td>15</td><td>18</td><td>16</td><td>18</td><td>10</td><td>15</td></tr>
<tr><td>Neutral Good</td><td>Elf</td><td>MC Mage/Thief</td><td>18</td><td>19</td><td>16</td><td>18</td><td>11</td><td>8</td></tr>
</table>
My bard has a roll of 92... it seems really hard to get any higher. So in order to have a Wis 13, I need to reduce other stats, which is really a hard decision... Str 15: the minimum to hold composite long bows; Dex 18: higher the better for AC and range attack ability; Con 16: to receive maximum bonus HP; Int 18: higher the better for spells; Cha 15: minimum requirement.

(Edited for spelling corrections.)

[ 08-22-2004, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: MichaelLi ]

A party of six at insane difficulty will get LOADS of experience. The 1.0-1.2 million XP per character only applies to the original game at normal difficulty. Double that for insane, plus add a bucketload for the HoW and ToTL expansions.

That said, if you do wait to dual over at lvl 13, you WILL be playing without priests for quite a while. If you go through the majority of IWD before heading to HoW, you should be able to dual over before hitting the expansion - likely in Lower Dorn's Deep, but possibly in Wyrm's Tooth.

That's not my favoured style of play. Clerics and Druids get healing spells, the best buffing spells, and druids have the best summons. I prefer to dual sooner rather than later (but that's a personal opinion). There's no question that a dual class Fighter[13]/Cleric[?] is better in the end than a Fighter[9]/Cleric[?], but dualing earlier makes it easier (and arguably more fun). So it depends what you want to do. If you want the Endgame-Party-of-Killer-Death, dual late. If you want a smoother game throughout, dual earlier.

There was a thread on this a couple months ago. I'll see if I can find it.

Since it will be your first full time through the game, I'd dual no later than 9. Alternately, you could dual one of them early, and one of them late. That could give you the best of both worlds, if you can handle just having one healer or no healer for a significant chunk of the game.

Here's some past threads on the topic of dualing.

Here and also Here

<a href="http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=003088#000015" target="_blank">
This</a> is essentially a recap of what I said above.

I should add that your bard doesn't absolutely have to have a natural 13 Wisdom. There's a potion or two that permanently increase wisdom (although you may wish to have a priest use those ones), and there's also potions that temporarily raise Wisdom to 18.

[ 08-23-2004, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

Thanks again, Aerich, for the information! I think I will dual both of them at level 9. Cannot wait any longer to have healing and buf spells! Also, the days fly by so fast when resting without a healer in the party; although from what I've read in the forum this won't be a problem, it just doesn't look good to me.

<font color = mediumspringgreen>MichaelLi,

Having a large cadre of Fighters is good. The strategy of DCing your Fighters is excellent. And your choices of classes to DC them to is SUPERB! DCing at Fighter 9 is great, and it is nice to see you voice that choice when so many do not have the patience to carry through with such a plan; but I agree with Spiff: HoF rains SO MUCH expo down on your party that I would use it: wait to Fighter 12, for the extra stackable proficiency point; or even Fighter 13, to also get the extra 1/2 Attack-Per-Round. Stack all your PP in EXACTLY one melee and one missile weapon.

With expo flowing like rivers in the monsoon season, I would also consider designing the third Fighter as a "battle mage" -- a DC Fighter(13)/Mage. Nothing like having a killer Fighter that is under the influence of Blur, Improved Invisibility AND Stoneskin AND, has some summons running interference for him!! Of course this means that you have to trade in the Dwarf for another human. You want infravision; so I'd make the Bard a half-elf and make the mage/thief a MC, choosing a race with infravision.

Another choice for your third fighter is DC Priest/Fighter; since this gives you the luxury of waiting a long time before DCing your Fighter/Priest. (I had a party with Priest(12)/Fighter, Ranger(12)/Priest and Bard, and did not feel over-prepared in the healing/buff department.) But I think your Pally could fill the gap while you wait.

Congratulations on your choice of Bard to round out the party!

With all the physical firepower you have (four heavy melee artists), it would be a mistake for your Bard to ever handle a weapon. My Bard is equipped with the very best weapons... and she never uses them. With very, VERY few exceptions, if she is not throwing Stoneskin on herself (should be done before battle starts), conjuring Berserkers, or throwing a specially needed spell, she should be singing War Chant. She is totally incapable of coming even close to adding enough physical firepower to make up for the advantage that a fighter-heavy party loses when she does not sing.

Still on the subject of Bards and melee --> Think about it: two equal clvl-13 parties, each composed of 4 Fighters and a Bard, face off. Both Bards throw Stoneskin. One party has their Bard sing; so they have 4 Fighters with the THAC0/AC table tipped 4 points in their favor over the other 4 Fighters; and they get 2 points of healing each round, AND they get an extra 10% resistance to slashing, piercing crushing and missile damage. The second party's advantage is that the 4 Fighters have the support of a Bard shooting crossbow with an effective THAC0 penalty of 2 (assuming that Fighters are engaging Fighters, and not shooting/meleeing the Bard). The shooting Bard's Fighters are toast, my friend; and, soon after, so is the Bard. If both Bards summon Berserkers, then the outcome is even more lopsided, because the singing Bard's Berserkers also get all the benefits of the Bard's song! CONCLUSION: Unless throwing spells, the Bard (in a fighter-heavy party) should sing.

Your Paladin's close-in weapon proficiency points should be stacked as high as allowed in whatever weapon type "Pale Justice" is. I forgot if that is long sword or great sword.

I would cover as many weapon types as possible, since there is usually ONE superb weapon of each type. You have at least one of your heavies sporting blunt weapons, which is good; but, --and again I have to agree with Spiff-- just about any blunt weapon proficiency is a better choice than mace.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: I realized, after reading a post after this one, that I goofed: I should have said: "...just about any blunt weapon proficiency is a better choice than club."

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

[ 08-26-2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

Good advice here.

I originally recommended dualing at 9 because I have a marked preference for spells, regaining abilities early, and because your party was without a true priest. For the first time through, that may not be fun. You may also want a chance to experiment with the spells before reaching massive fights where any mistake can kill you.

D/C and M/C mages are fun. D/C will eventually be tougher, but M/C is powerful all the way along.

Bard advice is good. Spells and songs are the way to go.

The "Pale Justice" that NobleNick refers to is the uber-weapon-of-destruction for paladins. It is a longsword.

NobleNick, check out the thread on my priest-heavy party. I'd appreciate your comments, whenever you have a chance to read it.

Thanks for the detailed suggestions, NobleNick!

DC Fighter/Mage is really tempting! If I am to substitute the MC Mage/Thief to a DC Fighter/Mage in my party, I will probably change the DC Fighter/Cleric to MC Cleric/Thief. Now come to think of it, this might be a smoother gameplay because I will have priest right from the start, and I can still have limited mage power from the bard. (To mean 'limited' I am thinking of saving most of the spell scrolls for the later DC Fighter/Mage) Also, comparing the MC Mage/Thief and MC Cleric/Thief, the latter has a wider range of armor to wear (means lower AC) and also higher HP.

The bard... yes... even now I almost always let she sing. My bard is now level 7 and she sings 'The Ballad of the Three Heroes' (+1 to hit, +1 damage, +1 save) or 'Tymora's Melody' (+1 Luck, +3 save) most of the time. Can't wait to have that 'War Chant of Sith'!

As for the blunt weapon, although there is not much good maces around, I've heard on the board that there are plenty of good morning stars. 'Morning Star +4: Defender' with +2 AC and 15% spells/slashing/piercing resist; 'Morning Star of Action +4' with 20% chance of stun and +1 number of attack. There are also two Morning Star +3 for Priest only. Since morning stars also use mace proficiency, this does not sound so bad. A lot of good flails, of course. 'Shocking Flail +4': 50% chance of 2D3 lightning damage, 20% chance of stun, +1 AC.

Yep, party selection and creation is half the fun.

But really, you don't need a D/C F/M to rip apart your enemies. It's overkill, with the number of fighters and the type of support you have. You could even turn the LG D/C fighter/cleric into a pure cleric, with great results. A little less grunt power, but it will get to high levels quicker and provide healing and buffs all the way through.

I personally like the Mage/Thief, or even better, the Illusionist/Thief. What you lose in melee you gain in sneakiness and innovative tactics. You can cast invisibility on yourself and scout for traps and opponents at the same time with no risk to yourself. You can set spell traps (Glyphs, Skull Trap, movement inhibitors, etc) behind your invisible thief, backstab, and run back to the party, using Dimension Door to jump over the nasty surprises. The meleers will walk right into them, and you can clean up the remnants with missile fire.

I've gone with three tanks before, but I rarely use more than two in melee at any time - only when blocking a doorway or passage, and summons are actually better for that (because your party doesn't take damage). I've taken an elven F/M in a six-character party, and I often felt that he was a loose wheel. Don't get me wrong, he was awesome, but I really didn't use him to his full potential. There was no need. I had a Paladin and a dwarven F/T to do the tanking, and they did a great job. A straight mage would have done just as well.

Where the F/M really comes into its own is in smaller parties.

[ 08-26-2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

<font color = mediumspringgreen>It's hard to do overkill on HoF mode, unless your party is the one getting killed.</font>

<font color = mediumspringgreen>What an awesome tactic! I started a thread, long time ago, on unfair tricks. Lots of dirty nasty things came to light; but not this. Excellent! Thanks!

I love the Gnome Thief/Illusionist MC: She carried my party for quite a while, and I wrote many glowing reports about her when the party averaged clvl 5 through 13. Now that my party has advanced to level 17+ though, she has lost some of her luster, mostly due to the MC penalty. The Bard, not even considering her songs, is now a decidedly more powerful magic user than my specialist mage! Another problem I found is that my thief is an up front person, whereas the mage should stay protected in the back. So I'd scout ahead with my thief skills, then often find my mage (same character) caught out in the front of a vicious melee-fest. I think next time I might try the MC Priest/Mage (I have heard that this is an excellent support character) and a DC Fighter/Thief</font>

<font color = mediumspringgreen>~Sigh~ I guess I am just getting old and wimpy. I don't disagree with you, but I like uber characters and easy wins: start to sweat when my party collectively loses over a quarter of their HP, or when any of my front line loses more than half. (And I have had MANY opportunities to sweat in HoW and TotLM, just on normal mode!) Here is my current party (stats are as best I can remember while away from my gaming machine):

DC Ranger(12)/Priest (wish I had done Fighter(12)/Priest)
DC Priest(12)/Fighter
DC Fighter(10)/Druid (intended to DC at 9, but went over)
DC Fighter(9)/Thief (wish I had DCed at 13)
MC Gnome Thief/Illusionist
Half-Elf Bard

With 4 excellent melee-artists, instead of 2, (and, of course, the Bard is singing) you can achieve things like:

1.) Consistently take down a Beholder in 2 to 3 rounds (instead of 5 to 8), which is a lot less exposure to those wicked spells.

2.) Laugh at the paltry opposition offered by a gang of 6 Spectral Guards. (After adding in a recitation buff, Spectral Guards last about 2 rounds apiece.)

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

[ 08-26-2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

Right, I forgot he was going to go on to HoF. In which case I retract the overkill statement. The huge experience also is favourable for uber d/c and m/c characters, and becomes a drawback for single class ones.

A F/M is a great support character in a party of 6, but I've never built a party around one. It is very versatile, and deadly from range as well as up close. But it does tend to have less HP than pure tanks, so I've always used it as a third tank option. I preferred to use most of my spell slots for long-distance damagers, not protective buffs.

You can get through the game quite well in non-HoF with two tanks, even on insane mode. I generally use 1 + summons in my priestly party. Sometimes just summons.

Re: the mage/thief and getting out of the way-
It can be a problem, all right. Dimension Door is a necessity, and useful for the big fights, but those fourth level slots are too valuable to cast it all the time.
So here's some other strats, if you're not already using them -
1) Speed boots. Can switch off with a Ring of Free Action if going against casters.
2)Free Action - Cast that Web with a different character and run right through.
3) Invisibility potions - chug them down right after attacking.
4) Mirror Image. Gotta have it - it may even work with my strategy above - cast Mirror Image, then go invisible - hopefully when you backstab the MI comes back up, protecting you from archers, etc, and allowing you to run/spell out of range. I must test this.

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Aerich,

I have used 1 and 2; but had overlooked 3 and 4. Now that I have a Fighter/Thief, I hope to stay out of situations that call for these tactics; but maybe I'll find them useful. Thanks!

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>