After recently finishing the game, I came up with the idea that having a "good party" can be at least a little objective in regards to ease of play. So, if there are any who are about to begin the game, or who may find the game a little difficult, my recommendation for a 6-person party is

1 fighter
1 paladin (or ranger)
1 druid (or cleric)
1 fighter/thief (a standard thief may be a little weak for awhile)
1 mage
1 bard

This gives you a couple tanks (so very much needed in this game), a healer, a thief, a magic user, and a morale-booster. It seems that bards, paladins, and druids are quite good for this game, whereas mages aren't too powerful (contrary to BG1 & 2). It also seems that the paladin and the druid are a little more powerful than the ranger and the cleric.

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There is a +7 sword only usable by paladins in the game.

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Nice list, Gammit!

You are right, party composition is not totally subjective: there are things you can do to improve (or torpedo) the overall ease with which you progress through the game. One of the things you can do to maximize your success is to make sure a wide variety of skills and abilites are represented.

I have a couple suggestions to buff up your suggested party a bit.

I would start the mage out as a fighter, and dual over at level 3, or (if you can hold out) level 7 or higher. This will get more hp, attacks per round, and weapon proficiency for this guy. Even dualing over from fighter level 3 should be a big boon: keeps your mage from dying when a monster looks at him cross-eyed.

Ditto for the druid or cleric: dual over from fighter to pack more hp onto him. (Oh, I agree with your analysis: the druid wins out, if HoW is installed.) The fighter/druid dual class is hard to roll (need 89+ ability points, spread just right); but IMHO is worth the effort. See threads in this forum on how to do it.

And, again, I agree with your analysis; this time regarding paladin and ranger: The paladin, to me, seems to be a more robust character, and best suited of all the straight classes to be a tank. The only tiff I have is that you can't dual class him; so he will always be "average" in the hitpoint department. I might be inclined to go with a ranger over paladin, if he were dual classed from a level 9 cleric to give him more hitpoints and spell capabilities

Since your party will start out with so many fighters waiting to dual over, you can start your main fighter out as a cleric or a mage, to get more hp and to get spells to augment mage power or to help mitigate the need for a full cleric. (Having a party with a bard, paladin, and fighter or ranger with cleric skills, makes the druid/cleric decision, above, even easier to make: Go druid!)

I assume your fighter/thief is multi-class. I did a gnome thief/illusionist multiclass. I have often longed for the extra hitpoints that a fighter/thief would provide, and am testing out a fighter/thief dual class. However, I am not sure that I am ready to trade in the wealth of spell power my mage half has in order to get the extra hp and fighter skills. I think either choice is valid, depending on your playing style.

The bard is a great addition *IF* you have HoW installed and you are willing to buy her a few good pieces of bard stuff.

Party On!
</font>

Sounds like a well-rounded party. In fact very similiar to the one I'm playing now in HOW. I tried a thief/fighter also, but she didn't last too long. In the beginning I thought she was great, especially the boost to HP but by Lower Dorn's she wasn't a big deal anymore. I've found the mage/thief to be a better combo, especially in HOW. My other mage is a fighter/mage which I like alot!! Great HP and an extra slot in bows, not to mention the ability to use long swords instead of daggers.(She carries a hammer should she need one too.) She's gone toe-to-toe with several enemies that I never would have put a mage against in melee combat and came through with flying colors. Maybe I'll try a fighter that duals to thief and get some extra slots in bows and long swords.
As far as my paladin, he doing pretty well in the HP category, with 153 at level 13, just 9 shy of my dwarf fighter with 19 cons, also at level 13.
I tend to have several parties at one time in various stages of the game, so I'll mix exp characters with newbies or run a mid-level character through a few areas just for exp. I never used a bard before starting HOW. I played the just the expansion option and brought in five of my favs then added the Morgana bard. Now I'm ready to start one from scratch, along with my first druid considering how much I've heard about them on the board.

Cool Halloween smiley, eh? Thanks for the pat on the back, you two. I forgot to mention that it is indeed HOW that makes druids and bards so incredibly worthwhile. To answer a question, yes, my fighter/thief is a multiclassed halfling (never played a halfling before). I never thought of dual-classing a fighter to a mage to have more hp. Cool idea! Although, there WOULD be a lack of magic in the early to middle of the game (and I needed it then). Maybe I'll try that sometime in the future.

[ 10-29-2002, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Gammit ]

My only suggestion would be to get a conjurer...+1 spell per level with little to few drawbacks (I don't know how many divination spells there are after lvl 3 but I never use em'.) ;)

Didn't they give the conjurer another opposing school in HoW ?

Anyway i can also recommand the fighter/druid multi. It's a bit easier to roll for this character then when you are going for a dual class. And when i want to do it, i always forget the allignement restriction for a fighter/druid dual.

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Gammit,

Yeah. Even if you can only afford to go to fighter level 3 before dualing over, the extra 42 hp, 5 extra weapon proficiency points (and the ability to stack them!) and extra ApR are worth it. Your "new" mage should be a grinning fool!

Heh, heh, heh. No matter how much magic you get, more is better. However, if you have the bard and choose the thief/illusionist (or even just pick one of them) you should have no dire lack of magic in the early game.

Peytin! You have shown your true colors.... and they look like mine! I'll have to keep your bent for mixing it up in the back of my brain. I like doing the parallel party thing, too, and mixing and matching, getting more expo in still another game, etc.

True_Moose and Jansen, Agreed: Specialist mage is *THE* way to go (who would throw away all those extra spell slots?); and Conjuror is IMHO one of the better choices to make. I also like Illusionist and Invoker. My put is to have at least two specialties represented in the party, aligned so that EVERY school is covered: scads of spell slots and nothing is taboo! I intend to have THREE specialties represented in one of my parties:

mc gnome Thief/Illusionist
Fighter/Conjuror (dual over at fighter 12 to 13)
Fighter/Invoker (dual over at fighter 12 to 13)

Party On!</font>
edited because Jansen slipped in a post whilst I was writing mine!

[ 10-29-2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

This ain't BG2, True Moose. I say to heck with the Conjurer and go for a General Mage.

With HoW installed, the Conjurer has INVOCATION as its' opposition school.

That means no Magic Missile, Shield, Mordenkainen's Force Missiles, Web, Snilloc's Snowball Swarm, Fireball, etc... ...

Offensively, a Conjurer is robbed of a lot of direct-damage spells. :(
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The Abjurer has Alteration and Illusion as opposition schools.

This means no Stoneskins, Mirror Image, Vocalise, Haste, Slow, etc... ...
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The Diviner has Conjuration/Summoning as its' opposition school.

This means no Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, almost none of the summoning spells..., etc... ... :eek:
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The Enchanter has Invocation as its' opposition school. Why they made the Enchanter the same as a Conjurer, I have no idea.
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The Illusionist has Necromancy and Abjuration as its opposition schools.

This one is actually bearable. You lose about half your defensive spells, so you have to be extra, extra careful. No Skull Trap and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting either.
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The Invoker has Divination and C/S as its' opposition schools.

What can I say? When an Invoker is weaker than the Diviner... ...
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The Necromancer has Illusion and Enchantment/Charm as its' opposition schools.

Offensively, it rocks, but defensively, it leaves a lot to be desired. Not mention I will not get Greater Malison! ARRGGGHHHH!!!! Or any of the Emotion spells for that matter... ...
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The Transmuter has Necromancy and Abjuration as its' opposition schools.

Talk about slapping him in the face. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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A General Mage gets 7 spell slots for spell level 1-6, 6 spell slots for spell level 7-8 and 4 spell slots for spell level 9.

Factor in various equipment, and your GMage actually has more than enough spell slots to rock the house. I mean come on... what is the difference between 18 Magic Missile and 16 Magic Missile spell slots? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

A General Mage can have everything, so I recommend a GMage over any of the SMages anyday. In IWD:HoW that is.

[ 10-29-2002, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

if reply to the mage listing

get 2 dual-class mages

one thief to illusionist (needs DEX 16)
and
one fighter to necromancer (needs WIS 15)

all spells have been covered and you can get the high lvl spells

EXPOSED by NobleNick!!!!

Gammit, I didn't mean to mislead. My fighter/illusionist is a multi-class. She was a fighter and illusionist right from the beginning. You'll only get two prof points in any weapon doing it this way, but that's one more than a mage or mage/thief combo would get, plus you can get them in any weapon. As an afterthought, I probably should have dualled a fighter at level 3 or maybe 7 but I didn't. Oh well. As Dundee says, I don't find the restrictions for the illusionist specialist all that problematic. As far as my own defense, I have stoneskin, blur, and mirror when needed so I never have had a problem. All the emotion/courage spells are there too. If you have any other general mage or combo, they can always learn the spells your specialist can't.

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Ar-Cunin,

I say you are on the right track.

Dundee, Long time since I've seen you so lathered up about a subject. There is lots of good information in your dissertation; but I firmly disagree with your conclusion.

First off, no matter where you are in the game, if you are gaining new spell levels then a specialist mage has a tremendous advantage, since you get an extra spell at every level, INCLUDING the highest levels that you are acquiring. This means that when you are a wee little mage, just able to cast your first magic missile, you get an extra spell slot for it. So, you get two magic missiles instead of one: nice advantage. As you advance and get level 2 spells, you can throw two Aganazzar's scorchers instead of one: big advantage. When you first qualify to throw a fireball, you get 2 instead of one: BIG advantage. By the time you get to spell level 4, an extra magic missile does not mean as much as it did when you started the game; *BUT* you get two Monster Summon II spells instead of one: BIG advantage!

Yes, I wish my Illusionist could cast spell trap (GREAT spell!); but in one party I'll have 2 fighters dualing over to different schools, and in the other my bard takes up the necromancer duty; so have it covered either way. And I think that is ONE of TWO main points I'd like to make: Don't go light on magic. Make sure at least two (appropriately picked) schools are represented, so you can have it all (variety and quantity).

Point number TWO: Even if you have only one mage, specialize. When I first get level 3 spells, I'd much rather have 2 fireballs loaded into 2 slots, rather than one slot and the choice of whether to load fireball or skull trap into it! Ditto argument for each higher level, as it is acquired. And this argument holds true even for lower level spells at higher character levels: I have never felt like I have enough level 1 spell slots, and my specialist Illusionist is level 10!

I agree with you, that Illusionist is one of the better (if not the best) of specialists; or, as you might put it, the least challenged. However, a Conjuror is second in line, in my book *IF* she is the second magic user (i.e., you have another FULL magic user in the party). Yes, a lot of the direct damage spells are unavailable, and magic missile and fireball are tough ones to live without (hence the second magic user); but you do get skull trap, and the ability to summon is a very powerful offensive AND defensive tool...

A wad of goblins can plug a corridor and (this is important) bunch up the enemy much more effectively than web, entangle and grease all put together. Then throw your skull trap right in the middle (I virtually always use skull trap offensively): OUCH!!! That must have hurt!! Heh, heh. Since we've specialized and have that extra skull trap, let's do it again.... Goblins are good meat shields, too, even in the middle stages of the game (e.g., Severed Hand), when each goes "Poof!" in one hit. Of course, in the later game, you get summons that are much more effective than goblins and fire beetles. And if you have specialized, you get more of 'em....

To summarize:

*IF* you ground rule that there will more than one significant magic user (2 mages, or a mage and a bard, etc.), *THEN* I say it is a no-brainer: specialize.

*IF* you ground rule that there will only be one magic user in the party (bad starting position, I say) *THEN* I guess the decision of whether to specialize or not is philosophical: If the worry about what you DON'T have is going to outweigh the glee over the extra amount of what you DO have, then go general. I, however, will specialize.

Party On!
</font>

Yeah, I actually tried having two magic-user specialists my first time through (one illusionist, and one necromancer). I enjoyed the extra spell slot, but not enough to warrant my weak offensive illusionist, or my weak defensive necromancer. Who knows, maybe I just played these characters poorly. Howerver, in retrospect, I still say go with 1 bard, and 1 general magic user. It was so much nicer for me.

NobleNick, I guess it is my fault to neglect to say that I am playing on Heart of Fury mode. Trust me when I say that by the time I actually gain access to level 4 spells, my General Mage will have more than 2 spell slots at spell level 4, and then some at level 5... ...

I will agree that it is better to specialise if you are playing on Core or lower level difficulties, but at the higher level difficulties, scrolls are still sparse, but Xp is not. When a Mage and the Bard has to argue over who should scribe the scroll, it can really be depressing. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

When I first completed IWD:HoW, it was on Core Difficulty, and I used a Necromancer and Bard combo. Now that I play on HoF mode permanently though, I will have nothing else but a General Mage, because darn it all! I have the spell slots, but not the spells!!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I spent hours working out what should be my six-people party on paper first, and it occured to me that there was no point to having more than one Mage, because I have a Bard already, and scrolls are barely existent as it is already. :(

Like the fact that there is only one set of Conjure Air/Fire/Earth Elemental... *sob*... ...

This is my personal ideal party. It suits my own playstyle, so others may view it differently from me.

Human Paladin, Sirius Black:
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The lone sufferer. [img]tongue.gif[/img] He is the one, the only, party member to tank it out in front. On the bright side, he gets all the best equipment such as the best armour, items with physical resistances, items with AC bonuses and elemental resistances.

His default AC can easily reach -12 and lower. With spells and such, his AC can stay at -20 and lower for as long as 3 minutes or more. Theoretically, his AC can reach -30 and lower, but I doubt the game caters to that kind of AC.

Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger, Robin Clym:
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The party's witchdoctor, and secondary Druid. Needless to say, he is the source of the party's magical steroids. When he is done casting, Sirius is for all purposes, a God in the frontlines.

He is also one of the party Healers, but it is not his main role. When he runs out of spells( highly unlikely), he resorts to slinging bullets. He only resorts to a melee weapons when absolutely necessary.

Robin Clym is also the party's secondary summoner.

Half-Elf Fighter/Druid, Great Bear:
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He is the party's primary Druid and is the main summoner. He casts a lot of Static Charges, Sunscorches, Alicorn Lances, Sol's Searing Orb( they should rename it Sol's Bazooka [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) and summons such as Winter Wolves, Polar Bears, etc... ...

As with Robin Clym, Great Bear prefers to sling it out with bullets, and only resorts to melee when necessary.

Halfling Fighter/Thief, Stealthy:
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He is the Thief. He is the Archer. That is all that needs to be said. ;)

Human Mage, Gramps:
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100% direct damage offensive Mage. Got a target that is vulnerable to magic? Gramps is there to make it feels the pain. I love the script I made for Gramps, I can actually let him do whatever he wants without worrying that he will do stupid things.

I mean... *GASP!* A Mage that will not use fire-based spells on targets that are immuned to fire. Could it be? Oh yeah... ... :D

Gramps is not all about offense though. He does have spells such as Mirror Image, Blur, Emotion:Whatever, Mind Blank, etc... to help himself and the party.

Half-Elf Bard, Jasmine:
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War Chant of Sith. It is enough. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Heh, heh, well spoken, Dundee.

Maybe I just don't know what I am talking about, having only progressed to Severed Hand with one party and towrds the end of Dragon's Eye with two others, all three on standard difficulty. I still definitely prefer Specialist: Don't even own a generalist in any of my parties, unless you count the bard. Maybe I'll revisit this when my mages have more fuzz on their derriers.

Oh, and I've been thinking about the Conjuror. She was my second choice, after Illusionist; *BUT* I don't know if I made it clear that I only made that choice because I already had an Illusionist, and the Conjuror was a great complement. Actually, I planned out the party from the beginning to have three mages. (This was before I got HoW, so the bard and druid were out.) I was also thinking about how I'd use her, and was (and still am) planning to dual over from high-level fighter. By the time she gets fighter skills back, she'll also have blur and mirror image. So should be a dynamite melee character. *BUT* this was all my specific planning for my specific party, which will eventually have THREE (3) mage schools represented in the party! If I mix in the bard from my other parallel party I could have FOUR (4!!) magic users!!!

I plan to get around the "Not enough spells" thing by running parallel games; but understand your concern, since Sashii has 3 empty level 5 slots. This option (parallel games) would not be open to a truly purist roleplayer; and you seem to be closer to this end of the spectrum than I. I view my adventurers as transcending any one game, and truly enjoy going back to parts of the game that were very hard, and beating the snot out of those turkeys.

All the above said, I have to agree with your post: that a specialist Conjuror is not a good choice for a party that has only ONE magic user. The conjuring skills are VERY useful; but you can conjure without having a Conjuror; and the loss of magic missile and fireball are a bit too much to bear. I, like you, would go with Illusionist.

I enjoyed reading your party list. Maybe my party will come more into alignment with yours when I enter HoF mode!

Party On!
</font>

[ 10-31-2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

My favorite party and early weapons as help (HoF mode only):

Tank power:
Dwarf Fighter: Axe (+1 from certain skeletons in Tomb then +2 Defender & Throwing Axe); Hammer; Crossbow (early only)
Gnome Fighter: Large Sword (+1 then +2 Confusion); Mace; Crossbow

"Helm of the Trusted Defender" (Haste spell!) --in case you ask "why the Gnome?"

Note1: Max out Axe and Sword then:
Dwarf: Hammer then Crossbow (late game help)
Gnome: Equal points to Mace and Crossbow--finishing to grand maser on the Mace

Note2: Hammer and Mace equals Skeleton-crunching power (start with one for the Ranger below as well--Mace or Flail)

Missile power:
Elf Ranger: Large Sword; Bow (+2 Defender then The Black Bow)
Halfling Fighter/Thief: Theify hack 'n bonk weapons; Sling (early); Bow (Messenger of Sseth) --it's a more thief-like weapon...right?

Magic power:
Half-Elf Druid: Staff (Nature's Wrath); Sling (+1 or greater)
Elf Mage: Staff (greater reach) then Mage daggers; Sling (+1 or greater)

I want certain random items, so I "cheat"--but at the same time I earn them. I'll fight the battles over and over (a pain in HoF) until I "GET ME SOME"!