HLA'S are a bit much. Some things I would have done to make them more balanced would be these.

Don't include use any item. It makes rogues too powerful and also makes it very easy to make some insanely powerful dual and multi classes.

Don't include the thief traps. Seriously, who would play a bounty hunter with those HLA traps available to all thieves? They do so much damage too.

Make the assasination HLA available to assasins only. Assasins are out classed by fighter/thives in most aspects. The poison is nice, but the X 7 backstab isn't that amazing considering you struggle to hit a lot of things in full plate with an assasins terrible thaco.

Don't include dragons breath and comet. Spells that just about annihilate every enemy in the game in 1 shot no matter who they are, (excluding perhaps 2 I can think of). You have little reason for any other level 9 spells with these two. Instead of those 2 HLA's it would be nice to see some more extra spell memorizations, like another 1 for each level.

I would remove many of the thief HLA's, so they should be replaced by something. Perhaps an instant invisibility limited to 1 a day wether there are enemies near or not. Another nice one could be a timed thaco boost castable 3 times a day or something. They would still die faster than tanks, but at least they could do some damage first. An extra proficiency slot in a weapon of thier choice to bring it up to 2. Some much more balanced HLA's imo.

Intrested to hear other peoples opinions on this stuff [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well I personally think that WW and GWW should only get Kensai(from RPing wiew) becuase they strike with speed and precision.


Rangers should get something like"Make cure of [insert name of a plant here]" like Aragorn in LotR instead of tracking. Aragorn helped Frodo with his knowledge when he was stabbed by Morgul blade.


Mages/Sorcerers:they HLA`s are good becuase they are known to bring Meteors from the sky and they bring raining death and destruction anywhere they go...


Thieves:well traps are good. :D


Bersekers/Barbarians should be immune to every type of damge for 60 seconds.(Becuase they are animalistic and like in a real life when you have an adrenalin rush you don`t feel anything)

<u>First of all some Comments about Devv's and Xen's Suggestions:</u>

- Use any item should be thrown out of BG like Devv said. It is much too powerfull and I'm wondering all the time, why Bioware didn't realise this fact

- In my opinion the thief traps should be only available to the Bounty Hunter. Or maybe he could be the only Thief Kit which can choose every trap more than once, while all other thiefs can get only one of each HLA-trap. As well there could be a Upgrade for the Bounty Hunter's own traps, in form of another HLA. Also the HLA-traps could be a bit weaker. What about making the Spike Trap (is that the English name for it?) do just 4d6 damage by the spikes but poisen the victim for about three/four rounds and do 18 damage per round?

- I also agree with Devv to make the Assasination HLA a "assasin-only" Ability.

- I would let the Dragons Breath and Comet still in the game but make them a lot weaker. The Dragons Breath's damage could be only the half of it's current value and it would be still the most powerful spell a mage could use. So I think it's casting time should be much longer and not be affected by items as the Robe of Vecna. Same goes for the Comet.

- His idea of a Thief Ability, which reduces the thaco for a few points is great. But the instant invisibility is a bit much. And from the Roleplaying point of view it doesn't make any sense: how could someone who is standing right in front of you just disapear and hide himself in shadows though it might be a sunny day and you are outdoor?

- I don't agree with Xen, that WW and GWW should be only available to Kensais because the Kensai is very strong on his own. I would suggest that these two HLAs should be available to nobody. They are way too strong and make the game too easy. I only could imagine to let only the normal WW in, but make the penalties on the thaco harder. It would be still a great ability.

- Xen's idea of the some sort of Healing skill of the Ranger is good. And it makes pretty much sense. The Ranger is traveling most of his life through the wilderness and therefor he should know to heal himself/others with some plants.

- Well about the next two points of Xen's Post I have already said something.

- Such a ability for Barbarians and Berserkers would be IMO a bit overpowered. Bu the idea in general is good. But the Barbarian should be damaged in this time. But as you said, he is in a adrenalin rush, and therefor don't feel anything. That means that he is hurt, poisened and maybe even so much damaged that he is obviously death, but in this short period of tome it doesn't matter to him. If the time is over, all damage he has taken during is rampage is be taken at once + 15 damage(for balancing that he ist immune for 60 seconds). So there is a high chance that he will die after the 60 seconds.


<u>Now some own ideas about HLAs:</u>

I would like a HLA for (nearly) every single Kit. For example: A Priest of Talos could get an awesome offensive Lightning spell while a Prist of Lathander maybe receive a Healing spell. A Undead Hunter could learn some sort of the Sunray spell and a Shapeshifter could shift to a ultimate Shape for about 30 seconds once a day.

[ 09-11-2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Elramir ]

maybe off topic a bit, but I just want to say something about the "overpowered" HLAs thing.

imo, they should just stay there for the less experienced and less tactiful gamers, or say, "general/average" gamers. BG series is very popular and many non-hardcore rpg/PnP gamers play it as well. Those HLAs can give less experienced and general gamers a chance to finish the game without too much trouble. When you're good, experienced, or spend tons of time exploiting the possibility of powergaming, I think as good as all you guys are, you can beat the game without overpowered HLAs. If you feel those HLAs are overpowered and make the game too easy, you can always play the game without using them. I consider myself less experienced and not quite far from average/general gamers "skill wise" (I'm die-hard RPG, especially BG fan), I rarely, if ever, use dragon breath, but I rely on GWW and Comet quite often; I think you guys can easily play the game without using HLAs at all. I still remember my first time through ToB, almost throw away the game after several failed attempts to go through the final battle, even with all those fancy HLAs...I thought I could never finish the game at that time. Now I look back, none of the standard ToB battles are too tough, but it's after quite a few reruns.

I think the gamemakers did have the general/average gamers in mind when they designed the game. I reckon not many average gamers will revisit BG series and explore the possibility of powergaming after they beat the game (unless they got hook by the game itself). I think this is also the reason that in standard SoA, the tougher battles (Kangaxx, Twisted Rune and such) are purely optional, and major, required battles are relatively easy, and too easy for experienced gamers (Bodhi finale and the final fight in hell) -- they're easy enough for general/average gamers to finish the game. ToB raise the battle difficulty, but adds HLAs = when less experienced gamers like SoA and want more, they can play ToB, and with HLAs, they can still finish the game with relative ease.

at any rate...all your guys' ideas might eventually become a part of mods (or a ToB modifified HLAs mod) in the future. One of the most important reasons why people make mods is because experieced and powergamers want more challenges, isn't it?

[ 09-11-2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: teardropmina ]

Some great points noted from all of you [img]smile.gif[/img] First of all i'll reply to teardrop. You are spot on when you say that the HLA's are good for helping the less hardcore gamers. Some HLA's like use any item however I think are a bit too cheap even for the most casual of gamer. They don't just make the game easier, but they ruin other classes and destroy too much balance. I think that mods like the ascension and tactics are the only way to deal with these overpowered HLA's however, it is hard to say no to them. Tell me if you can make a thief and take them to level 40 without getting use any item heh [img]smile.gif[/img] I don't think mods that removed the HLA's would be very popular since people like power too much. Some of them seem to not have been thought out enough before the game release in my opinion, but they're here, and here to stay.

Welcome to Ironworks Elramir [img]smile.gif[/img] Some great comments (I love it when somebody starts off by agreeing with me!) I like your idea on dragons breath. It is a nice HLA idea and would be a shame to use it when all it needs is a mini nerf in damage. Glad you liked the thaco idea. I picture an assasin using it before backstabs, or a thief using it when his party starts to die in a fight as a do or die kind of tactic...since a thief is after all still wearing leather armour. The instant invisibility could be a touch of near magic the thief has gained from all his life time of practising to hide in the shadows, this is at least a decent way to enter it in a role play kind of way. I see it as much more role play orientated than a thief reading power word kill from a scroll and setting up a time stop spell in a trap lol :D

As for Xen's points, I like the improved bezerk mode lots. A nice way to do it though would be to kill the zerker/barbarian or perhaps take them down to 1 hp after the zerk mode ends. This means they have gone truley mad ignoring all damage for 30 seconds or whatever, dished out supreme damage but nearly killed themself in the effort. Their wounds would have to catch up with them when the adrenaline dies down ;)

The ranger heal is nice, but they get priest spells anyway. I don't see them getting a lay on hands ability as being that great an idea. Aragorn did it in lord of the rings because he is a king of men from the Numenorian race. In the 3rd book they tell you some stuff about the hands of the king being skilled in healing. He doesn't have those skills because he is a ranger [img]smile.gif[/img] If anything, he is a Paladin with a Ranger appearance in my view. Perhaps giving them slightly different named priest spells with the same effect might improve their role play side of things.

No comments on the extra proficiency HLA though. I really liked that idea too [img]smile.gif[/img] An extra +1 in hit and damage is gained from going to 2 slots from one so it is a decent HLA but not too overpowering. After all why shouldn't your assasin who only uses a short sword all his career not get more than just "proficient" with his weapon. He is a master of killing right?

Sure but Aragorn has Elven blood(IIRC) and Elves are Rangers/Archers.

Thank you Devv!

That is absolutely right. But Paladins, Barbarians and Rangers should get as well such a ability because they are still more a Fighter than a Thief (Assasin) and it wouldn't make sense that they had as much proficiencies spend in, for example, Katanas than a ranger.

AFAIK that's not right. Both, his father Arathorn and his mother Gilraen, were Northern Dúnedain. That means that Aragorn has no elven blood.

I most definately agree with removing the thief's trap HLAs and putting something in their place. Just imagine what a thief with Use Any Item could do with a time trap. You put a time trap, you use the HLA Assassination, and then go backstab the crap out of everything. Now that is just waaaay too overpowered. I'd like to see something like a dispel magic trap and a Glyph of Warding trap (an attempt to keep the monsters away from you).

Elramir already said it, but I second it...Aragorn is all human but he is dunedain and all those lot were the remenants of the Numenorians. They had kind of Elvish powers, were stronger and smarter than normal humans and lived for much longer, but they were still mortal [img]smile.gif[/img] (man do I sound like a nerd??)

Welcome to the topic Lord, glad to see another who agrees with me on the traps ;)

As far as the proficiency slots go, I feel Paladins and Rangers all deserve 3 slots (except for archers). It doesn't improve you that much, compared to having 2, but 2 just seems too low when a fighter gets 5. I think an assasin and swashbuckler should get the 2 proficiency HLA but not normal thieves or bounty hunters. Barbarians I feel should get 2 slots but not 3, they are meant to be brutes, but saying they don't learn any tricks with their weapon they constantly use is silly.

It would be nice to see the bounty hunters allowed 1 each of those HLA traps but no other thieves. It would give people a reason to play bounty hunters over the other choices and mean that if you wanted to role play one, you wouldn't be playing a gimp.

well, that's something (different ways but same result) a sorcerer (or even a mage) can do without HLAs. if it's "balance" we're talking about, why thief cannot be as powerful as sorcerer? all sorts of HLAs that are not for sorcerers seem to be very justfiable when there's a class called "sorcerer" -- making other classes closer to sorcerers powergaming wise. No matter how many GWWs fighters gain, they're probably still less powerful and destructive than high level sorcerers without any HLA.

The point is though, what can a sorcerer do if he needs a trap disarmed? What can he do if he finds himself in a "null magic" room like in WK. What can he do if he has no spells left and is jumped by bandits?

In most cases the sorcerer is the argueably strongest character in the game, of course cleric/mages and kensai/mages could be voted the same. However, a thief shouldn't be able to even touch a level 9 scroll, never mind set up traps with level 9 effects. The damage done by those spike traps is insane too. The assasination was smartly limited to 1 use a day, but the same is needed for things like GWW. UAI is just rude too!

Null Magic room? There are certain Boots in SoA with Tactics Mod... that make a Sorcerer "cheesy". :D Even if he/she finds hikmself in a "Dead Magic" zone he can still cast spells. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-12-2003, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Xen ]

[quote]Originally posted by Elramir:

Quote:

AFAIK that's not right. Both, his father Arathorn and his mother Gilraen, were Northern Dúnedain. That means that Aragorn has no elven blood.

The Dunedain ancestry, and that of Numenor before it, was descended from the line of Elros, Elrond's brother (Elrond is in fact Aragorn's great-uncle, going back 50 generations or so). Elrond and Elros were of the Half-elven, the scions of the union between Beren, a man, and Luthien, an elven maid. The Half-Elven were given a choice by the Valar (gods) - become Elves or become Men. Elros chose mankind; Elrond became an Elf (hence his epithet among elves - 'Elrond the Wise' [img]smile.gif[/img] ). Therefore it's correct to say Aragorn has no Elven blood.

However, Luthien herself was the grand-daughter of the Valar, Yavanna (if I remember arightly)... so you might well say that Aragorn, while not being possessed of Elvish heritage, has a certain spark of the divine about him.

But I digress.

Aragorn may have had extroadinary powers of healing, but that was partly based on the lore of the Dunedain; the skill in the correct preparation of certain herbs (athelas, for example). I see no reason to assume that, in the Forgotten Realms - where incredible powers and amazing skills are a lot more common than in Middle-Earth - a Ranger with sufficient experience could not do something similar.

The power of High Level abilities - and spells too - is based on one simple factor: how often do you rest? It's possible to use every ability you've got in every battle you fight if you rest after every single clash.

Here's a thought, then - make all the HLAs One Use Only. Imagine them as moments of divine inspiration, frantic last-minute bursts of frenzy, heroic acts of sheer willpower, blasts of extreme and risky magic, fiendish but difficult-to-construct trap devices, etc, etc... If you want to use one HLA more than once, you'll have to select it again. For the more powerful HLAs, you'd have to achieve a higher level.

[ 09-12-2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Tancred ]

i like all of that except having to achieve a higher lvl for the more powerful HLAs. The more powerful HLAs already require you to select the weaker HLA that's 'grouped' with it (such as you need power attack and critical strike to use smite. was it called critical strike? cant remember, i never used the HLAs much to remember).

I like the idea of having some HLA's available to higher levels only [img]smile.gif[/img] I still say that some need to be removed too tho.

While it's quite true that Elros chose the path of Men for himself and his descendants, I wouldn't say that directly equates to having "no Elven blood" in his veins. Both Elrond and Elros chose nothing more than physical characteristics and the place in which they would rest in the Halls of Mandos; the choice did not sunder brother from brother, or parents from children. Tolkien even gives us examples of true Half-Elves (Earendil and Elwing), proving that the blood of both races can flow in the same body.

Luthien Tinuviel did indeed have divine blood, but it was not from Yavanna of the Valar, but rather from Melian of the Maiar, who was her mother. And don't forget that the Numenoreans have Half-Elven blood on the other side of their ancestry as well, from Idril Celebrindal and Tuor.

I know what you are saying Six, but when the Numenoriands became Numenorians I kinda feel that they became something different to both elves and normal men. Supposedly the herald of Manwe comes to these men after their battles with Morgoth, when allied to the Elves and Vallah and he teaches them many things about the world. This extends their life and makes them harder in spirit and body than normal men, but they still remain mortal.

I know that Elros would have been half elven if you look at his roots, but I think the Numenorians was kind of a new race created after Morgoth was beaten. Half elves were very rare and not allowed to remain half elves it seems, that's why Elros and Elrond had to choose between mortal and immortal life - becoming more like a human or more like an elf. That's my take on it all anyway [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well, naturally Earendil and his wife were Half-Elven. Earendil was the one who came to Valinor and made the Valar decide to make the Half-Elves choose which race to belong to in the first place! [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for 'blood'... I think I've ended up using the wrong terms. Blood's blood, there's nothing special about it. It would be more correct, perhaps, to say that Aragorn may have a trace of Elvish blood in his body, but that does not make him special. Elros surrendered everything that made him an Elf when he made his choice to become mortal. He was barred from Valinor and lost his total connection to the physical world, but in return was able to sleep and dream, and when he died he was able to go... wherever Men go. (In Middle-Earth, choosing between Elf and Man is a tough one, really it is.) It's the divine ancestry of the Numenoreans and their descendants that sets them apart, not their Elvish roots. Sorry about the confusion there.

And yep, you're right! Melian was Luthien's mother. [img]smile.gif[/img] My Silmarillion is rusty.

So what would you choose? [img]smile.gif[/img] I think I would need to think hard about it, being mortal is a bit of a gamble and would be the brave choice I guess, but being elf is very appealing!

So what would you choose? [img]smile.gif[/img] I think I would need to think hard about it, being mortal is a bit of a gamble and would be the brave choice I guess, but being elf is very appealing! </font>[/QUOTE]Thing is, Men have a lot going for them in Middle-Earth. Men can sleep and dream, and when they do so no one knows where they go. This capacity to look beyond the real world is something Elves cannot even concieve; Elves are rooted so firmly in the physical world that they lack the spontaneous imagination and odd power Men have. Though it doesn't become apparent in the films or the book, in the old days Elves were in awe of - and envied - Men for their ability to affect the world in all sorts of unexpected ways.

Plus, the soul of a Man does not go to the Halls of Mandos when the man dies... no-one really knows where they go. This was a terrifying prospect for e.g. Morgoth, the Great Enemy, who was furious and intimidated at the thought that there would always be a part of Mankind he could not control or destroy. He was more scared of Men than he was Elves. This is one reason why one of the first things Sauron decided to do when building his own armies was: Get Some Men.

Go for Men every time. Would you truly want to be part of a race that, in so many ways, has been on a downhill slope for at least 10,000 years or more?

I wouldn't go so far as to classify the Numenoreans as a "middle race" between Elves and Men, simply as a sort of "High Men" that enjoyed many of the advantages of Elvenkind, while still remaining mortal and bonded with the fate of Men.

As for "half elves being rare and not allowed to remain half elves," flip back to the section in <u>The Fellowship of the Ring</u>, just after leaving Moria. The Fellowship crosses a particular stream, and Legolas sings a song about the Elf-maid it was named after....the gist of it was that she left, journeying downstream toward Anduin and the sea....and then in <u>Return of the King</u>, Legolas meets the Prince of Dol Amroth (whose lands just happen to be situated near the mouth of the river Anduin), and salutes him, because it was clear that "the Prince had Elven blood in his veins." This line of Dol Amroth was also marriage-material for the Stewards of Gondor: Either Denethor or his father Ecthelion married their Princess--implying that they may have been trying to strengthen their dwindling lifespan by infusing some more Elvish heritage into the line.

"It's the divine ancestry of the Numenoreans and their descendants that sets them apart, not their Elvish roots." Since the two are rather inseparable, it's rather difficult to make any sort of claim on this point. One thing that can be said is that neither divine nor Elven blood can guarantee a person's greatness: Take a look at Elladan and Elrohir. As Elrond's sons, they were about 40 generations closer to their archmother (Melian) than Aragorn, and they've also got some very strong Noldor roots in their grandmother, Galadriel....and yet everywhere they go, they're riding Aragorn's shadow the whole way. And what about Arwen? All she did in the entire story was sit around and look pretty. Even Glorfindel was a bad-ass mofo compared to her.

As for the choice between Elf and Man, it would seem that the balance is fairly equal on both sides: If one were clearly better than the other, both Elrond and Elros would have chosen the same one. As for Elves envying Men over their ability to dream and the like, don't forget how much Men envied Elves their immortal lifespan, not needing to sleep, and of course thier ability to travel to Valinor. On the "green with envy" scale, I would say that the Men are definitely greener. Also recall the difficulty of Arwen's decision to bond herself to Aragorn's fate; she was sundering herself from family and friends, sure, but she was also giving up Eternity as well.

Just a few points I wanted to bring up.

Numenorians aren't Numenorians because of any sort of ancestory with the maia or the elves. They were all normal men, but were taught by Eonwe, the Herald of Manwe.
From the Silmarillion..."To the Fathers of Men of the three faihful houses rich reward was also given. Eonwe came among them and and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have posessed."

I realise that Aragorn would have had some very distant trace of Elvish and Maia Blood, but only because Aragorn was a direct descendant from father to father of Elros, the first king of Numenor. Most of the Numenorians could not boast this heritage. Most were normal men who went to war against Morgoth and fought on the side of the Valar and the Calaquendi from Valinor. For that they were given these gifts.

You mention that Elladan and Elrohir were just riding and Aragorns shadow and that Arwen was fairly useless, because their heritage alone doesn't make people great in middle earth, which i totally agree with. You do say however "even Glorfindel was a bad-ass compared to Arwen." IGlorfindel was a bad-ass elf altogether, he had been to Valino, so had seen the light and was one of the calaquendi. They don't get much more badass than this, except for the Noldor that had seen the light of valinor too like Galadriel. Even Elrond wasn't sposed to be very powerful, he was a lore master and healer and also had some very strong roots, but not very old "in elf terms." Not powerful compared to the old of the Noldor anyway [img]smile.gif[/img]

If I had to choose tomorrow I would go elf I think. At least that way you know what is coming to you. However, no human brain or spirit could last long with an elves immortality, I think we would get bored far too fast! Humans are always looking outside the world and pushing it's boundaries, whereas elves never think that way and probabally can't even comprehend it. There power comes from an affinity with the world and nature, where as humans go with it or push against it to suit their needs.

I was intrested to read how you viewed The Prince of Dol Amroth [img]smile.gif[/img] I guessed he was a human, perhaps Numenorian that had some elven blood in him and his people too, but it wasn't explained too well...just like Tom Bombadil remains a bit of an enigma [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-15-2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Devv ]

Oh, I know about Imrahil and his folks alright. There's nothing special about him, he's a Man with a beardless chin. I wouldn't call him half-elven; the blood's much more watered-down than that. The folk of Dol Amroth are just some Men with some quirky genetics - definitely descended in some way from Nimrodel the elven-maid, but not directly. Aragorn is not like Imrahil, however.

I think it's not to do with this elven 'trait' that the Steward line married into the Dol Amroth line, but for the fact that, apart from Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth was most likely the mightiest and fairest of the Gondorian realms.

One thing that puzzles me, however. Where does it say that Men envied Elves? Men honoured Elves in the First and Second Ages, and mistrusted them in the Third Age, but I don't believe mankind envied the Elves at all. Anyone who had the lore to make an informed choice could see that to be an Elf was to have a sorrowful existence. The Elven race sums up one of the key themes of Lord of the Rings; loss, and dealing with loss. The Elves put a brave face on the absolute tragedy that is their history and destiny. I'd want no part of that.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, you're being a bit harsh, aren't you? The brothers were born in the Third Age, at a time when Elvenkind pretty much stopped making war and concentrated on defence of what little they had. Elladan and Elrohir spent time wandering and aiding the Rangers of the North for almost 3000 years; and when it comes to the crux, they are two of only a handful of Elves that fight Sauron directly. They're in Aragorn's shadow because, quite frankly, Aragorn is the Epic Hero of LotR and EVERYONE is in his shadow. Aragorn is a throwback, a fluke of generational breeding that creates a man destined to be a hero and a king. You can't fairly compare anyone in LotR to him.

And Glorfindel... this is THE Glorfindel, slayer of a Balrog, who came back from Valinor to Middle-Earth of his own choice. He has passed through death and come back - he has suffered to such a cathartic extent that he cannot and will not fight any more (reminiscent of Frodo after the Ring is destroyed). Even then, because of who he is and where he's been, he has power - at the battles to protect Imladris in the Second Age, Glorfindel squared up to the Witch-King, Lord of the Ringwraiths, and simply scared him off. When people say, "Even Glorfindel couldn't do this," (and they do) they mean it.

Bit by bit Ill reply to that last post ;)

First off, men did envy the elves, they envied their immortality. This is the reason for the Downfall of Numenor. The men of Numenor became proud and it ended up with Sauron corrupting most of them, so they made an assult on the undying lands in an attempt to get their hands on immortal life like the elves. The problem the proud Numenorians had was that they were so talented and skilled, so they built so much fien stuff, but then they still had to die and leave it all behind.

About Imrahil, I believe that the steward line wanted to wed into that line to strengthen their blood line. A lot of Tolkiens writing is about the waning of the Numenorians and how a lot of the ruling families would shun marriage outside of other Numenorian families. The stewards of Gondor had waned a lot, Faramir was another genetic throwback like Aragorn, but Boromir and Denethor were almost totally normal men.

About Elladan and Elrohir, I don't think anyone was being harsh, but they were never epic characters, that's all that people here have been saying. I am a bit sad we didn't get to see any of them or the other rangers in the movies yet :( I have seen a few previews too of the 3rd and I didn't see any other Rangers :(

Next, about Glorfindel. Is it really the same Glorfindel that fought the Balrog when Gondolin was destroyed? I always thought it was a different elf with the same name, but powerful none the less because he had lived in the undying lands. I really don't know here, so I am asking are you sure? [img]smile.gif[/img]

According to the Silmarillion, Glorfindel of Gondolin is killed in the fight with the Balrog. Both of them fell into the abyss off the cliff, and the king of the Eagles retrieved Glorfindel's body and it was buried in the mountain pass.

Getting back on topic [img]smile.gif[/img]

I have to agree that some of the HLAs are too powerful. Especially the Thief HLA's seem to focus on making them more like mages. Instead, they should have given them abilities that strengthened their thief skills--Assasination is a good example. I like the idea of giving the theif an ability to hide in shadows in the midst of combat. It would allow a thief to perform a backstab and melt back into the shadows. Another idea would be a HLA that allows the next strike (must be a backstab) to ignore stoneskins and similar magical protections. Or a knock-out attack that when successful renders a backstab victim unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds but does not get the backstab multiplier to damage (knock out effect is able to work through any spell prots, but damage can be avoided). Another HLA could be a use of their detect illusions/traps skill for a few rounds that does not interfere with hiding in shadows. So they could be sneaking, but still see traps or invisible creatures.

The idea of the theif classes is stealth and devastating surprise attacks. The abilities for them to do major trap damage, and become another spellcaster don't seem to fit.

For the spellcasters, I agree that some of the HLAs should do less damage, and for warriors, the WW and GWW should be nerfed. Either by adding more THACO penalties or by adding damage penalties--you make super fast attacks, but have to sacrifice putting full force into each of them. Make each attack do 2/3 damage.

Devv, I quite agree with most of your points. I'll explore these a bit more, though:

As Olorin pointed out, there seem to be <u>two</u> Elves named Glorfindel. Either Tolkien suffered a bit of laziness and forgot that the name had already been used, or the 2nd Glorfindel was named after the first. Since the name means "golden-haired," it could quite logically be applied to any number of Elves. As to whether the Glorfindel in LotR has been to Valinor or not, I would probably say no. He is of the Noldor, and is described as an Elf-Lord, but he was probably born in the 2nd Age, long after the Trees were killed.
As for Elrond not being powerful, I must point out that his power was great indeed, but only extended in a very quiet way: Secrecy and preservation for his lands and his people, very similar to Galadriel. The fact he is held in such high esteem by all peoples, despite doing nothing more exciting than serving as a Herald for the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, says a lot. So does the fact that he was selected to hold one of the Three Rings.

Last night, I dug out my copy of LotR again, to make sure I hadn't made an ass of myself over Nimrodel & Dol Amroth....it seems that there was a whole community of Elves in the region of Belfalas, which was a popular place to take ship to Valinor, very like the Grey Havens. Apparently, with a good-sized population of Elves (of all stripes) located in the middle of a large Numenorian kingdom, a fair amount of interbreeding occurred. After a few generations, the resulting offspring were extremely Mannish (Boromir could not be prejudiced against Elves with a Half-Elven Prince defending Gondor's right flank), but still carried enough evidence of their Elven heritage for Legolas to recognize it an Age later.


Hold on a minute--you make it sound like the entire race is whimpering and curling up into a fetal position to die. The only way in which the Elves are fading is that not only is the Enemy causing them to die (an incredible and irreparable loss), but it's even killing them faster than they can reproduce. They have no choice but to abandon the sinking ship that is Middle-Earth; I'm sure their cities in Aman are quite prosperous, and I'd hardly call that a "sorrowful existence."

If I had to pin down a central them of Tolkien's works, it would be that ALL things, Elven or not, diminish with the passage of time, and the present can never attain the glories of the past. The Trees can never bloom again, Man shall never again know the like of Beren or Turin, forever gone is the glory that was Khazad-dum. Morgoth was exiled and replaced by Sauron, whose destruction signaled the departure of the Istari, as well. The greatest single Evil remaining in the world would be....Shelob, perhaps, unless there's another Balrog somewhere, and the greatest left to oppose them would be....Bombadil, perhaps, or Fangorn. All things grow small.

Ah, but instead of a choice between Elf and Man, let's make it between Noldor and Vanyar. The Vanyar remained in Valinor all through the First Age, strumming their harps, and only set foot on Middle-Earth just long enough to help in throwing down Utumno and laying open its pits. The Noldor, however, fought a many long and bloody wars against the Enemy, with deeds fell, fair, and foul, with deeds of epic honor, courage, and treachery. The Vanyar spent more time singing, but the Noldor had a lot more to sing about. Give me Noldor any day.

[ 09-16-2003, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

I disagree. Shelob is pretty thick, she damn near commited suicide by impaling herself on Sting. Shelob cannot match anything like the destruction caused by the orcs. Although a great many of the orcs were killed at the gates of Mordor, it would be all but impossible to kill of their entire race. Look what they did to the forrests, burning and hacking away at them. Also, men would be a greater evil than Shelob. Shelob is greater than any single man or orc, but she (he?) is only one, the race of men is legion, the orcs were probably reduced to very few, but they will more than likely survive.

As for the greatest left to oppose them... the Numenor are a dying, if not dead race, the elves have all left, hobbits would be worse than useless in a fight. As Gandalf (i think) said, "It is with men that our hope lies," although i would class men as the greatest evil left, they aren't all bad.

Six, the nly thing I know of in LOTR that describes Glorfindel a bit is in the beginning of book 2 of the fellowship of the ring when Gandalf describes the elf lords in Rivendell at the time,
Gandalf: "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the seen and the uneen they have great power.
Frodo: "I thought I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?"
Gandalf: "Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes."

Make of this what you will, but I reckon he is one of the surviving light elves from Valinor who came back with the Noldor in their exile. I would choose Noldor and their struggles too if I had to choose to be an elf [img]smile.gif[/img] Is that coz were humans and we desire power hehe?

As for the evil left in the world, it wouldn't be the orcs. Of course when Sauron died they lost all sense of purpose and didn't have any will to continue. They were fuelled at first by the will of Morgoth, then by the will of Sauron. Without either present, the orcs were lost. Men would have to be mans worst evil and at the same time, it's best hope. That kinda relates to our world I guess.

[ 09-16-2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Devv ]

A whole bunch of stuff there! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm not sure if it was ever envy as such that prompted the revolt of the Numenoreans against the Valar. You have to remember that the Numenoreans were still fairly decent folk at heart; Sauron instead skewed their perceptions of the Valar, and made the Valar seem uncaring, unjust, selfish and cruel. The spin there is that it is not that the Numenorean king coveted immortality, but that the Numenoreans came to believe that it was wrong that they should not have it. And, in the end, the Valar struck first, and the war was over far too swiftly for any real declarations of intent.

Denethor a normal man? Gandalf disagrees.

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir who he loved best." - Return of the King

As for the slow decline in 'noble blood' in Gondor:

"... the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser men... this mingling did not hasten the waning of the Dunedain, as had been feared, but the waning still proceeded... for no doubt it was due above all to Middle Earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Numenoreans after their downfall."

As for Glorfindel, I am reasonably sure. It's a debated subject. I sit on the 'yes' side of the fence. [img]smile.gif[/img] There's little evidence either way...

Hold on a minute--you make it sound like the entire race is whimpering and curling up into a fetal position to die. The only way in which the Elves are fading is that not only is the Enemy causing them to die (an incredible and irreparable loss), but it's even killing them faster than they can reproduce. They have no choice but to abandon the sinking ship that is Middle-Earth; I'm sure their cities in Aman are quite prosperous, and I'd hardly call that a "sorrowful existence."
</font>[/QUOTE]I think my point must have been miscommunicated somehow... I'm not saying the real tragedy is that the Elven race is dying out. The tragedy, from the Elven point of view, is that they love Middle-Earth, and they love it absolutely and completely. They honour it, they nurture it. They love it in a way that we as humans cannot understand, because they are so in tune with it. To survive in Middle-Earth they've had to harden themselves, choke back grief, deny tears, carry on in the face of despair as their world and their race simply dies around them. And at the end, after countless hundreds, thousands of years, to know that their valiance and the sacrifice of the lives of countless Elves who were not made to die has still resulted in the death of so much that they loved, and to have to confront the harsh, bitter truth that they've come to the end and now they have to take what they can salvage and leave *even if somehow they win* - that's where the tragedy lies. It's not grief for themselves, but grief for the world they live in, that is the source.

"The greatest single Evil remaining in the world would be....Shelob, perhaps, unless there's another Balrog somewhere, and the greatest left to oppose them would be....Bombadil, perhaps, or Fangorn. All things grow small."

Well, the greatest left to oppose them - whoever they might be - would be Mankind! [img]smile.gif[/img] The trees DO bloom again, in a fashion - Aragorn finds a tiny sprout of the sapling of the White Tree of Gondor, which is itself grown from a fruit of the Tree of Valinor upon Numenor. The end of Lord of the Rings is not, I believe, another step in a great decline, but the handing-over from one era to the next. And that era will grow great again, no doubt, and create great works of its' own... and perhaps in time, it will decline too. In fact, if you see Lord of the Rings as a prehistory, then we're still living in the Fourth Age. We may not have palantiri, but we have the Internet.

As to the other evils... there was a serious debate about all this on another forum and they all wondered if there weren't other lieutenants of Sauron out there. There's the Mouth of Sauron, missing in action. And the 'wild cards', the unaccounted-for two wizards who went into the East, never to return. If Saruman could fall from grace, so might they.The men of the South and East never do fully surrender their hatred of Gondor, at least not in the years chronicled by Tolkien. The ruins of Angmar may yet harbour wights and foul creatures who cling to their bitterness and hatred of life.

"But that, dear readers, is another tale." [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-16-2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Tancred ]

Actually, I don't fault her actions at all. How the hell was SHE to know just how tough Hobbits are, especially when armed with an artifact-level Phial of Galadriel and two highly enchanted shortswords? (Sting's gotta be at least +3, whereas it must have been an Age since Shelob even saw anything higher than a +1.)

And yes, that is precisely what I meant by "greatest single evil."

Not quite. The Orc race was not <u>created</u> by Morgoth, it was only <u>twisted</u> from its Elven beginnings. Orcs quite clearly have minds of their own and are perfectly capable of rational throught without divine empowerment. In the final battle before the Black Gate, you'll see that only those creatures (or parts thereof) that were absolutely created by Sauron (such as the intelligence of the Olog-Hai, or the foundations of Barad-dur) or extended beyond their natural span by Sauron's will to such an extent that they actually depended on his continued existence (the Nazgul) were actually <u>destroyed</u> with Sauron's downfall. The Orcs, however, were simply crazed with fear.

Well, the fact that Tolkien describes Glorfindel pitching down a mountain chasm, still locked in battle with a Balrog, is rather indicative that the Glorfindel in Rivendell is <u>not</u> the same one present at the siege of Gondolin. But the passage that Devv quoted, the one that describes Glorfindel as being an "Eldar from beyond the furthest seas" and having "dwelt in the Blessed Realm," seems to imply that it <u>is</u> the same one. Perhaps there were two high-ranking Glorfindels among the Flight of the Noldor, but I doubt it, and the genealogies back me up. Maybe, just maybe, a second Glorfindel came to Middle-Earth in the Assault of the Valar at the end of the First Age, and remained. An "Elf-lord of a house of princes" need not appear in the House of Finwe if the Elf-lord in question was one of the Vanyar.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

The end of LotR is not an end to the decay, it is merely a temporary restoration that brings back only a portion of the former glory. Gondor now has a King again, true, who has carried on the family tradition of marrying the highest-ranking eligible Elven female, and he has restored Minas Tirith--but what of Osgiliath? What of Arnor? Aragorn has found a scion of the White Tree, yes, but what of Nimloth? What of Telperion? This theme of great good and great evil destroying each other's greatness to produce the mundane is hammered on again and again in Tolkien's works. From the Valar vs. Melkor, we have the Noldor vs. Morgoth, then the Eldar & Numenoreans vs. Sauron, Gandalf vs. the Balrog, etc., until finally we're left with Frodo vs. Sharkey, leading us to assume that the rest of Middle-Earth is very shortly to be all about Barliman Butterbur vs. Bill Ferny.
I do not see any greatness forthcoming in the Fourth Age. I see complacence and uniformity.

Because the fourth age was an age of men, like our world seems to be. You can assume that they would have developed much like we have today. Tolkien is always seeming to imply in some ways that his tales are our worlds pre-history too. This makes me think what sort of greatness we have achieved, for bad or good because of Six's last comment.

Right away I think of nuclear weapons, the ability to destroy our own planet utterly. This sure is something that the elves never worked out ;) I think of the internet...or going back a bit, just the basic telegram system. Like Tancred said "we may not have palantirs, but we have the internet."

It is ok to assume that an age of men in Tolkiens writings would come up with the same as our age of men I think and we are certainly not lacking in greatness, wether it is good or bad.

As I say, not much evidence either way... the fact that he fell to his death while fighting a Balrog is pretty conclusive evidence of his death, admittedly, but then... falling... fighting a Balrog... dying... and coming back to life... hmm. Where have I heard that before? [img]smile.gif[/img]

You ask, "What of Osgiliath? What of Arnor?"... well, Osgiliath is rebuilt, and although it is no longer the capital of Gondor it still manages to become a happy, bustling port-city. Aragorn comes to the North and re-establishes Arnor, and has Fornost Erain rebuilt - his court alternate between it and Minas Tirith every ten years. Arnor is restored as a Kingdom once more. The Greenway is opened up, and colonisation begins of the vast open expanses of Hollin. Of all the ancient towers of Gondor, only Minas Ithil is left alone. It is torn down bit by bit and the stone is taken away, but the site is left undisturbed. No-one wants to mess with whatever might still be there. Apart from this one exception, rebuilding and renewal are the hallmarks of Elessar's reign.