Don't you think ToB was more a downgrade than an upgrade on the optical side. I think the artwork was far better in SoA. Also the mass fights somehow remind me of Diablo II. I think from SoA to ToB about the same thing happened as from Diablo I to II: Weapons and enemies got uglier (not meaning more scary), more comic-like and fights became big slaughterfests.

Faceman, I couldn't agree more. Every way that you turn, it's all a big battle. I would have preferred much more problem-solving, and different magical contests. I think that "Spellstrike was on my stepson's "Mage's "Favorite spell" for a while, and mine is always Greater Whirlwind." Plus, the NPC's endings mostly suck.

I agree with both of you. Too much hack and slash. With a high level berserker with AC -24 when enrage and 270 HP I can just say "bring the lambs to the slaughter".

I know aht you mean, with a sorcerer level 20-something it's not really much of a challenge anymore, a least not with time stops and a handful of dragons breaths etc.

I totally agree about the artwork too, especially the weapon-icons. They look like they were done very hastily. And besides looking ugly, some don't resemble their proper weapon-type too. I mean, the Short Sword of Mask is as long as any longsword, and that scimitar, wotsitcalledagain, Spectral something, that damn thing is as straight as a very straight thing! Again it looks just like a longsword. That could've been done so much better.

Honestly I liked lots of it, thought Amkethran was very nice, as was Saradush. As for the dungeons, well thats what they are. Anyone but me think the Music was a HUGE improvment on SoA though.

I don't mind the battle on every step at all. Many of us have played the BG since the first part - didn't you ever pay attention to the "words of Alaundo"? The Prophecy? It was said that the children of Bhaal will cause chaos and mess and it all ends with the big war between them, and many Joe Shcmoes and Mary-Shmary's will get smacked in the process as well. It's all known since you met these 4 monks at the Candlekeep Castle in the courtyard, they were chanting this over and over.. It has been the story of war and conflict in the making all the time, not some Snowwhite or Cinderella fairytale.

Actually I was referring to the artwork in the forst place.
The big battles DO bother me. I just like a good plain hard battle against one opponent (Draconis for example) and although it is not as ridiculous as in DiabloII some battles at Sendai's enclave e.g or the barracks in Saradush are just annoying (equipped with the new bard's song and a Gaxxring you can gain infinite XP at Sendai's without getting hurt).
Yet I think ToB is UGLY. If you look at the portraits of Melissan, Balthazar,... they have less details and are more comic-like (brighter colors, no shadows, round shapes ...). The Fire Giants ARE big, but they don't look very fierce as round-shaped as they are. Also the equipment. The Runehammer looks as if if was WB and most of the armor looks like Disney. I also agree with the argument, that the Spectral Brand is straight ... but these are mere details.
What really matters to me is the different color setting and the drawings in general.
You can tell with one look if something is SoA or ToB

Well, there are games with much worse graphics. You also have a choice, as a gamemaker - add all the purty stuff or make it run fast. I think you don't give to BG team enough credits - did you by chance perhaps not notice the little fact that this game DOES NOT require you to have 3d accelerator card? That it runs quite well with all the sparkles and bolts even on some lower end cards, what other game makers don't even dare to mention anymore? That it doesn't tell that you need crapload of memory and a PC as powerful as some NASA mainframe? No, this little baby runs quite well even on these PC's what even I don't call a "computer" anymore.

Look on the reality rather then bashing it with dreams. BG games are actually done rather well, they run very well even on low-end systems without losing much, if anything, even then. Sure there are better quality or better looking games out there, but these also have some hefty requirements and not all yet can afford such requirements. I have the "stuff" for higher requirements, but I admit that it's well done and allows everyone to play it with wide variety of hardware.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Whailor:
did you by chance perhaps not notice the little fact that this game DOES NOT require you to have 3d accelerator card? <hr></blockquote>

I am completely misunderstood again! The last thing I want is BaldursGate 3D. My worst fear for NWN is that the RPG-aspect will suffer, while every raindrop is calculated seperately (as in Ultima IX). You are perfectly right, that the BG series looks better than many other games out there does not require expensive hardware and provides one of the best gaming experiences ever.
All I'm saying is, that the artwork of BG1 and SoA was more to my liking than that in ToB, although I have to admit that it seems to be a common problem with upgrades (Diablo-Hellfire was that way and JA2UB too).
But once again I want to point out that I've always been VERY sceptical (if not an open enemy) of the 3D-boom and would certainly not want to see BG modified in that way.

I thought the whole dark-theme of ToB was good. You are trying to stem the tide of fate, which would wash the world with blood and birth a new Bhaal. You are either the instrament of this darkening of the world, or you are the sole hope against the darkness.

The battles, the mass death, the general darkness: I always thought that was part of the point of ToB. More problem-solving might be fun, but let's face it: the typical demi-god's response to a problem is to obliterate it.

-- Nifft

Sadly, Nifft, I agree with you. But i'm still not happy about it. I will agree that the BG-group packed an amazing lot of stuff onto one CD, but why should it just be one CD? Why didn't they just make BG-III after doing a nothing expansion like TOSC? I guess we'll never know.

I almost screamed with rage when I saw the 'fire giants'. They are supposed to be DWARFLIKE, and have coalblack skin with bright orange hair. Hmm... Lets draw romanesque figures and pretend they are fire giants 'cause we're too lazy to take them from IWD like we took everything else'. I almost snapped the CD in half... Boy, did that ever PO me alot for some reason. Also, why was sendai purple?

Oh, if you want graphics and music in a game, try IWD... THAT is THE GAME for portraits... So many cool evil guys. lol of course, if 3/4 of the originals weren't halflings it would have been better... ah well. lol

I agree totally with Faceman. He has a very good point. The job could have been done better.

i liked the fact that they came out with tob what i didnt like was the lack of puzzles or side quests. i mean seriously you gained most of your exp from the WK not the game. it was fun to play and offered more challenging scenarios but in my opinion was to short.to play the game completely thru with just a half crew you couldnt max your characters out.i would like to see a baldurs gate 3 come out. one that can intale 2 different storylines. one being a line where you are now human and no longer bhaalspawn. then the other is to play as a bhaalspawn. i think it should also get some different npc's to join in as well have some of the old npc's join or not join your party based on your desicions to be or not be a bhaalspawn. and the only graphic thing i didnt like was the intro video. hate to say it but they need cutscenes and movie clips like blizzard or squaresoft puts out. gives a better feel for the game.that and it makes the game more enjoyable when you beat it to or get to a certan point in the game

Agreed with the artwork 100%. Also the sound is a pretty crappy thing too at least for my game now.. Sometimes the sound of battle disapears and there is a silly tune and well.. nah..

About more fighting, well I liked it a bit! :D Being able to finally use all thoose nice little abilities but a bit more mix of more of everything would have been welcomed though. That is I don´t mind big fights, but I miss the problem solvings a bit too.

It is important to note that it wasn;t exactly the same art crew who worked on ToB as did SoA or BG1. New people, different style, especially when you have to bash out stuff in half the time it took to make the actual game, especially with only 2/3 of the art manpower they had for SoA.
I'm not sure the trouble is the quality of the work as such, it's just that the artists had to draw what they were told. A rocky dragon's lair, a drow network of caves and a fire giant temple just don't allow the same creative possibilities as an elven city or a ruined castle or whatever. Several of the outdoor locations - the ruined Temple of Bhaal, the Sacred Grove at the beginning - were just as lovely as anything in SoA. Compared with Saradush, though, ANYTHING looks interesting.
As for the weapon icons, I wonder if they weren't starting to run out of ideas... having produced icons for 169 different weapons and 248 items and armour for SoA alone, I know I'd feel a bit under pressure when told to make a further 106. A splodge of unusual colour there, an odd shape there and bingo! Another icon. Shame about things lik Spectral Brand being straight, but I'm not entirely sure these icons were made for specific items - either that, or someone just didn't tell the artists it was a scimitar. I's not obvious from the name what kind of sword it is.
It is a shame the game's so hack-n-slash orientated, but then it is the cataclysmic end to the Prophecy, the highlander-style there-can-only-be-one Battle of the Bhaalspawn, and the BG Team did try their best to make several of the 'set piece' battles - Yaga-Shura, Sendai - rather unique tactical challenges, especially the Improved versions. Give them a try if you haven't already, folks, I'm definitely appreciating them atm. They're puzzles of a sort.

***

Tancred

Trying To Please Everyone

me too!
- a new storyline
- IMHO XP cap is sufficient in ToB
- no fancy 3D, Infinity engine rulez
- more NPCs
- import whole party
- new areas, but the possibility to go back to
Baldurs Gate, Atkathla, ...

just a plain addon with the same tech and specs
but new story and areas

How about a Baldur's Gate Prequel? Meet the characters from the saga before the saga occurs; become a harper, meet a young Khalid and Jahiera, fight alongside Gorion, Dermin and Galvarey, battle slavers, the cult of Cyric and bhaal-worshippers...

Hmm... the artwork quality was worse, when i think about it, but I didn't really notice it as much as the lack of sidequests... the fact that there was more combat and less puzzle-solving didn't bother me too much, though... puzzles are nice, I suppose, but sometimes they're just too strange, or you end up searching for some item hidden in some place where your screen is too dark to see and you can't remember where you've been and then you start banging your head against the wall in anger... *shrug* Just my opinion... *grin*

Bioware hasn't given us a great graphics/gameplay game since Planescape Torment. They seem to think that more is better, cramming 200 hours of so-so, repetitive gameplay and mediocre graphics. I wish they would release another like PT, with beautiful spell effects and an engaging story line. I enjoyed the Baldurs Gate series, but after going back and playing PT, I have to wonder why they moved away from that engine and format.

I really liked Tancred's idea of a Baldurs Gate prequel, who wouldn't want to see Gorion in action or the find out more about Khalid and Jaheira's relationship with him. But then again how far back should you go?

Mebbe someone else can tell me if I saw this or not, but du ring the course of ToB (after Saradush falls I think), aren't you told that Athkatla has also been destroyed? So if there was to be a sequel they'd either have to have the towns rebuilt, or in another area I guess. And I preferred the music in SoA to ToB, but my one big gripe in the BG series as a whole is Imoen - how could she change from a pretty , fresh faced young lass to the slightly more.... *ahem* rough face of BG2?! I know she went through a lot, but sheesh [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm only in the first part of ToB right now (doing the Yaga-Shura temple), but my impression has been: "Aha, this is BG2 meets IWD." :D Seriously...I felt like I was back in Dragon's Eye or Severed Hand, where you get swarmed with about eighty bazillion opponents and it's mainly hack and slash and battle placement rather than exploration and storyline...also extremely linear, like IWD.

Don't get me wrong...I love IWD for a cool dungeon crawl game. It's kind of weird, though, to change horses in the middle of the stream from what I saw in SoA and what I now get in ToB.

Graphics don't bother me, and the dungeons I've seen, so far, have been well-designed. More traps than you can shake a danged stick at, but my guys are so beefed up now and with such high resistances that they practically trot over them, then go back and disarm them as an aftersight. (Shades of IWD there again...so many traps everywhere!)

Overall, yes, I liked SoA better, but I am enjoying ToB. It's just taking some getting used to.