Hey why does everyone say that the mage is the most powerful i would say priests are jsut as strong as a mage in terms of spells, and there Thac0 are good having better range in weapons choices then mages plus they also can wear any armor as well. Clerics have some of the best defensive spells in the game.

Mages do not rule hehe.

Clerics are more necessary then mages, and so there isn't much point in discussing them. Parties are very expensive without any healing spells. Clerics are basicly defensive, while mages are supposed to be basicly offensive. Clerics are pretty tough though if played well. I like Cleric of Helm... ;) My fav cleric kit (talos sucks in comparison). He only has problems killing off the biguns when he has no seeking swords left. ;)

Mages have two major advantages over Clerics,

Contingencies and Spell Triggers.

By the time your Cleric mumbles his/her first spell, a Mage can easily have up till 7 spells set up already.

Oh, and welcome to the Ironworks Forums. ;) http://www.plauder-smilies.de/wavey.gif ;)

I feel there is no fair comparison that you can make between the priest classes and magic users. Each has his/her own specific areas of expirtise in which they shine... and compairing the overlapping areas is not very fair.

This game was meant to be a group adventuring game, so can't we all just get along? Proper division of labor in groups is essential to have a efficient party... ;)

I myself know that a cleric/druid will always have his rear handed to him by a mage, but I would rather have the priest in a non-boss combat situation.

All good points, Eldoran, but you should know that when you're talking to Dundee, you're talking to a player who has beaten the whole game, solo, TWICE. That's right, not even Imoen. See his other posts. ;) Besides, that's the way we get along: we argue minutae.

Depends on what you want really, in the bg2 forum there was a knd of simialr debate and we decided mages or sorcerers wee best to solo with but clerics were very good too. I still wouldnt do it though. Basicaly when soloing as a magicuser you dont need healing but with a party a cleric is absolutly necessary

;) I am well aware of who Dundee is Galadria... I have been lurking here for quite some time.

Lately I have lost interest in Everquest, and I have shifted to playing the BG games again and DAoC.. So I came out of lurkerness on this board to compensate for the lack of all my EQ boards... If that makes any sense.

What I feel is hurting the priest classes in BG is the lack of specialization that is a mainstay of the class in 2cd and 3rd edition... It would be very nice to be able to have the specialty priest classes and spheres of worship like in 2cd/3rd... But I guess I will wait for neverwinter nights (assuming it comes out ever :( )

I guess what I am just trying to say is that the priest classes didn't translate as well as the mages... But the priest classes are still really nice in their own niches. (Spluts a Lich) [img]graemlins/microwave.gif[/img]

Hey Galardria i've beaten the game solo 3 times!!!
Yes 3 times:1st with a monk, then with a sorcerer and the with a blade(yes a blade!!!!). Its not that hard with the blade actually and its quite fun!!!

Hey Galardria i've beaten the game solo 3 times!!!
Yes 3 times:1st with a monk, then with a sorcerer and the with a blade(yes a blade!!!!). Its not that hard with the blade actually and its quite fun!!!

But back to the original question:"aren't preists as powerful as mages" I would have to answer yes. Sure a mage has got contingencies, he's got sequencers but has he got healing spells fissure summon deva(yes he's got summon planetar)or even (my favourite)divine ray? Sure is a duel the mage would anihalate the cleric but against a dozen demons(i trust you arn't using prot from evil) the clric need only cast devine ray once at each of them and their dead: d-e-d ded!

What exactly is divine ray and why would you trust a mage to not use protection from evil?

I agree that clerics can wear their choice of armors and use shields. They have some good defensive spells, but I would say the mage's choice of defensive spells is definitely not limited. Mirror image, invisibility, prot. from normal missiles, prot. from fire, prot. from cold, stoneskin, spirit armor (excellent spell), fire shield, minor globe of invulnerability, etc... That's only including 1st through 4th level spells. I won't start on improved mantle and spell trap.

As far as offensive firepower goes, it's not close. With the availability of chain contingencies and sequencers, the mage is bound to get a time stop off. If your mage has any clue, the battle's over.

I'll quit rambling and just say that IMO mages are more powerful.

take the most powerful of clerics, put him against an 18th level sorceror, and he will lose, (most likely)

cleric-chaotic commands
sorceror-timestop, improved alacricy, energy blades, protection from evil, gate, comet

by by cleric, lol.

of course, this is all here-say!!

[img]graemlins/ninja.gif[/img]

Thats all well and good but druids still kick some serious arse compared to both. The high level druid spells like Creeping Doom and Summon Elemental Prince are just not worth mentioning. And they are good in combat if they are shapeshifters. This is why I like Cernd, he can soften people up with spells and then dive in to rip up whats left.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant:
take the most powerful of clerics, put him against an 18th level sorceror, and he will lose, (most likely)

cleric-chaotic commands
sorceror-timestop, improved alacricy, energy blades, protection from evil, gate, comet

by by cleric, lol.

of course, this is all here-say!!

[img]graemlins/ninja.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

Well you did forget to mention that clerics do get gate much quickly then mages and they get skeleton warriors at level 13 and arial servants are powerful as well, and i forgot about champions strength now thats a powerful spell.

Why have a cleric when you can have a Planetar? With a planetar summoning mage, a cleric is just a waste of a slot.

Take the best of both worlds, try a gnome Cleric/Illusionist. Nothing like casting cleric spells at -5 off their normal casting speed or in a contingency/trigger.

Multi class mages end up with smaller number of spells to cast, but Illusionist gets an extra spell per level to make up for it. Illusionist cant cast Necromantic spells so you miss out on Skull Trap, Death Spell and Abi Dalzims. Cleric gets Animate Dead and Finger of Death, and Death Fog is Evocation, so you can use that instead of Death Spell to take out hostile summons (then cancel with Zone of Pure Air if you want).

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cleric Fanatic:
Well you did forget to mention that clerics do get gate much quickly then mages and they get skeleton warriors at level 13 and arial servants are powerful as well, and i forgot about champions strength now thats a powerful spell.<hr></blockquote>

*I'm shivering in my boots now* :D Mages get Death spell at 12th level, making your summoned skeletons and aerial servants pointless.
What good is having Champions Strength if you couldn't wade through his mirror imaged, stoneskinned protections. :D

As for Gate, Protection from Evil is a first level spell.

Clerics can be powerful, mages are powerful. :D

Btw,

I like Tim Tam's idea. Although that would cost one of the most effective spells around. Abi's is just plain deadly.

The following text should be taken with a pinch of salt.

<font color="white">Die vile Mage! I shall remove your presence from the face of the- *URK!*</font>

Sadly, Kimber the Blessed failed to finish his speech as he got hit by a Spell Trigger filled with 3 Lower Resistances and a Chain Contingency filled with 3 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings.

Okay, back to a more serious note. I have nothing against Clerics and I know that they can be very powerful. Heck, you can even make them even more powerful by dualling to a Cleric from a Fighter. I like Clerics, and I try to use them whenever I can if I am playing a party. Multiclassed Cleric/Mages totally rock and you can try it out by using Aerie. ;) I love Aerie, and I have experimented spell combos with her before.

Clerics are powerful.
Mages are very powerful.
Multiclassed Cleric/Mages are... :eek: ;) :eek:

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> I love Aerie, and I have experimented spell combos with her before. <hr></blockquote>
LOL Dundee, somehow that just sounded really dirty to me... You sly dog.


I suppose a good way to sum it up is that Clerics are group creatures... They were meant to work in conjunction with the other classes, aiding and augmenting others abilities with their own... Stepping to the fore when a need for their specialty arises.

No matter how ya want to slice it, clerics will Never be as good as magic-users at blowing up generic monsters/bosses... Clerics do have an edge against the undead, and sometimes daemons, but not always. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But I would have to agree with some previous posters and say let the two join together... There isn't anything quite like a cleric/mage with IA up during a timestop (and the robe of vecna/amulet of power) handing out harms, heals, and general arse whoopin! ;)

I myself am considering trying a multi Cleric/Thief... It could be interesting.

<--- Doesn't know why he is still posting to this topic, as everything has been said that needs to... but I guess I just am trying to get out of this Elite Guard rank :D

LOL! Stoneskin doesn't help very much when a cleric is beating the crap out of you with Flail of the Ages now does it? ;)

Clerics can summon serious stuff... Earthquake is a hilarious spell, and oh, don't be forgetting the wonderful, WONDERFUL spell called Miscast Magic. Sorcerers aren't very useful with 75% spell failure now are they?

IWD clerics are better than those of TOB by alot though, as they have FAR more powerful spells... Still, a cleric alone is the easiest solo there is. Clerics also have Finger of Death, can use shields, have magic resistance spells to help or hurt, spell abosrbers, ect....

Also, clerics can get beefed up with spells... Oh, and a first level insivisibility is just MEAN!

Miscast magic is a favorite of mine...right up there with doom and summon insects, for those particularly pesky magic users. But I have a question:

Is the cleric 'magic resistance' spell still limited to 40% in ToA?

LOL clercs can be powerful esp with demons and undeads, after all those two are their main foes, then mages are even more powerful with nearly every creature in the game the mage can open a can of whoopass

however in tob there is a cap on spell casting level, so my favorite thing to do is muli class a clerc/mage and do it CORRECTLY unlike aerie with her crapular health, heh my fav thing to do with clerc/mage is to fry demons [img]smile.gif[/img] i love summoning a couple of pit fiends then use chain conguegicity, holy bolt or whatever that demon killing spell is, earns me some safe ep :D if the protection from evil go bye i whamp another one on so fast with robe of vecona [img]tongue.gif[/img]

if you want to see SERIOUS carange, do a clerc/mage muli with the cap removed and get both to 40/40, don't forget to add the druid spells to the clerc, then eeeee you got an nasty thing on ur hand :D

i mean with that thing i love to summon hundreds of high level mages etc.. then unpause the game cast instect plague, now all the mages are dead meat [img]smile.gif[/img] i then procedded to nuke em all for huge xp, lol i'm boried very boried [img]tongue.gif[/img]

its very powergaming but bleeding ive played lots of rgp game but rarely an power game so i want my fun! :D

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
LOL! Stoneskin doesn't help very much when a cleric is beating the crap out of you with Flail of the Ages now does it? ;)

Protection from Magical Weapons, look who's laughing now.

Clerics can summon serious stuff... Earthquake is a hilarious spell, and oh, don't be forgetting the wonderful, WONDERFUL spell called Miscast Magic. Sorcerers aren't very useful with 75% spell failure now are they?

A Spell Sequencer filled with 3 Flame Arrows to disrupt your spellcasting and cause some serious pain. A Mage/Sorcerer can cast Time Stop faster than your Earthquake by the way.

IWD clerics are better than those of TOB by alot though, as they have FAR more powerful spells... Still, a cleric alone is the easiest solo there is. Clerics also have Finger of Death, can use shields, have magic resistance spells to help or hurt, spell abosrbers, ect....

Mage/Sorcerers have Spell Shield, Spell Deflection, Spell Turning, Spell Trap, Lower Resistance, Pierce Shield, etc... who do you think has the better selection of spell protections and spell counters? Have you tried soloing a pure Cleric in SoA-ToB?

Also, clerics can get beefed up with spells... Oh, and a first level insivisibility is just MEAN!

How about free unlimited invisibility? [img]tongue.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
Miscast magic is a favorite of mine...right up there with doom and summon insects, for those particularly pesky magic users. But I have a question:
Is the cleric 'magic resistance' spell still limited to 40% in ToA?<hr></blockquote>

You cannot cast Summon Insects/Insect Plague if the Mage/Sorcerer is invisible; and yes, the Priest spell, Magic Resistance is limited to 40% in ToB. Have fun against Magic Resistant monsters.

Power playing huh?

Never met a mage who could hold out against my dual classed fighter specialty priest (Battleguard = s.p. of Tempus) This character totally rocks the world, both in offensive and defensive spells and battle prowess.

One thing, i don't usually play Clerics but i will back them up here.
Why would Mage need magic resistance if his head was being smashed in by a warhammer wielding fighter/cleric?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Grindar Silvermane:
Power playing huh?
Never met a mage who could hold out against my dual classed fighter specialty priest (Battleguard = s.p. of Tempus) This character totally rocks the world, both in offensive and defensive spells and battle prowess.<hr></blockquote>

You have not met a Mage/Sorcerer controlled by a Human.

Oh, and if you want to talk about dualclassed characters, welcome to the world of the Kensai->Mage.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lucre:
One thing, i don't usually play Clerics but i will back them up here.
Why would Mage need magic resistance if his head was being smashed in by a warhammer wielding fighter/cleric?<hr></blockquote>

I am not talking about magic resistant Mages, I am talking about magic resistant monsters. I know Mages are scarier than most monsters, ;) but there is a difference.

How will a pure solo Cleric deal with Improved Demogorgan? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:


You cannot cast Summon Insects/Insect Plague if the Mage/Sorcerer is invisible; and yes, the Priest spell, Magic Resistance is limited to 40% in ToB. Have fun against Magic Resistant monsters.<hr></blockquote>

Regarding invisibility: that's what True Seeing is for.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:

How will a pure solo Cleric deal with Improved Demogorgan? [img]tongue.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

How will a Mage hold together a six person party without a Cleric?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
Regarding invisibility: that's what True Seeing is for.<hr></blockquote>

Non-Detection. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Besides, I do not even really need to do all this. One Spell Trigger and one Chain Contingency and bye-bye Cleric.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
How will a Mage hold together a six person party without a Cleric?<hr></blockquote>

Who's talking about parties now? Stick to the debate at hand, which is to give reasons why you think either a Mage or a Cleric is more powerful. Let's not bring the Monks and Barbarians into this picture, unless you are trying to say that Clerics are only for parties? ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:


Who's talking about parties now? Stick to the debate at hand, which is to give reasons why you think either a Mage or a Cleric is more powerful. Let's not bring the Monks and Barbarians into this picture, unless you are trying to say that Clerics are only for parties? ;) <hr></blockquote>

Being "powerful" is not limited to soloing through the game with spell triggers casting magical nukes. That is simplistic. If a Mage and a Cleric face off against each other in some arena, then the Mage would probably win, if that makes you happy. But a Cleric can maintain a party and a Mage can't...because the Priest's abilities are primarily defensive and more than a few are for buffing up the party. So if you exclude the party, you exclude by necessity some degree of the Cleric's power. And NO, that does not mean that Clerics are only for parties. Finis.

So we agree then, that Clerics excel in helping others become even more powerful( like Mages ;) ), that his/her forte is not brute offensive, but passive offensive.

While you may think what Mage/Sorcerers can do is 'simplistic', do bear in mind that it does get the job done, and that is what matters. ;)

Oh, and regarding parties, since you want to talk about it, ever consider that the rest of the party can just sit back, relax and sip some tea while the Mage/Sorcerer does all the dirty work? Sure, they can chip in now and then whenever there is Drow about, but a Mage/Sorcerer is all about power, Clerics help add to that power.

Necromancers should have healing spells. What do clouds of noxious gas have to do with the magical study for death? I always hated that!
Clerics are good, they have restoration spells that cure the entire party get some great weapons can wear armor but my favorite thing was ... energy disks. Mages get energy disk also so that means both classes rule because energy disks rule.

ahhhh, You guys aren't factoring in equipment and such. A halfling cleric would disrupt the spells with his sling and chances are kill you considering he had high level equipment and that seems how the conversation is going as if each characters where high levels. Sure the mage could cast improved mantle ... then the halfling could cast something else. It is all circumstance! It depends on who gets on that first stupid little shield that makes them totally invulnerable the halfing might intterupt the spell the mage might get the shield up.

Contingencies are unfair the only times they are used when you die reload and equip them for a hard battle or when you read in a Walk-thru that Dracos is tough. Contingencies were not designed for a reload button. This argument has no clear winner because each of your classes are support classes they function better in parties than alone there is no SOLO class. Sure I could have soloed WW2 had I a reload button I mean after gaining so much insight into the strategies after dying a million times sure I'd probably win WW2.

Non detection has no effect upon True Sight.

While you are busy casting protection from magical weapons, the cleric simply summons a few bears to smack to crap out of you. Or, they can use other spells like Bolt of Glory (or whatever its called). If the cleric certain equipment, they are going to be awful to try and kill for a mage.

Human Skin armour, Ring of Gax x2, Seldarine necklace thingy, Flail of the Ages, Cloak of Balduran... Just that and you get 80% magic resistance. Mages can't field all that equipment. In the time you use your contingencies and triggers/sequencers, the cleric has already beaten the crap out of you. They could also cast Miscast magic while your busy sequencing them. Oh no! No more spells. Besides, you can't have your mage already memorizing sequencers, contingencies, sequencers if cleric can't put into place HIS spells (summonings, protection from evil, gates, spell shields ect). You can't give one an unfair advantage like that and expect an even fight. Oh, and the cleric could just read a scroll of Antimagic.... Looks like all that armour and weapon power just might come in handy!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Non detection has no effect upon True Sight.

Oh yes it does. There is a reason why people love the Cloak of Non-Detection. It renders True Sight useless.

While you are busy casting protection from magical weapons, the cleric simply summons a few bears to smack to crap out of you. Or, they can use other spells like Bolt of Glory (or whatever its called).

Protection from Magical Weapons nerf the attacks of Bears too. Bolt of Glory takes a very long time to cast.

If the cleric certain equipment, they are going to be awful to try and kill for a mage.
Human Skin armour, Ring of Gax x2, Seldarine necklace thingy, Flail of the Ages, Cloak of Balduran... Just that and you get 80% magic resistance. Mages can't field all that equipment.

Mages have Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power and the Staff of Magi. Your point being?

In the time you use your contingencies and triggers/sequencers, the cleric has already beaten the crap out of you. They could also cast Miscast magic while your busy sequencing them. Oh no! No more spells. Besides, you can't have your mage already memorizing sequencers, contingencies, sequencers if cleric can't put into place HIS spells (summonings, protection from evil, gates, spell shields ect). You can't give one an unfair advantage like that and expect an even fight. Oh, and the cleric could just read a scroll of Antimagic.... Looks like all that armour and weapon power just might come in handy!

Therein lies the problem. Clerics cannot prepare spells before the battle. A Mage can, and this enables him to end the battle quickly and decisively. What is a Cleric going to do against a Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency combo? I only need a split second to cast this combo, faster than a blink of an eye.<hr></blockquote>

BUT STILL! If a cleric has 80 magic resistence he could just walk to the mage and pound his face in!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Worm:
BUT STILL! If a cleric has 80 magic resistence he could just walk to the mage and pound his face in!<hr></blockquote>

Refer to the first page of this thread. The Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency combo is explained in better detail. Ah heck, I will just repeat myself.

Spell Trigger = 3 Lower Resistances

Chain Contingency = 3 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings

Your Cleric will not be pounding, your Cleric will become a desiccated corpse on the ground.

Don't be too hard on them, dundee :D